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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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 Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| From the point of view of minimising potential security risks, it is true that it is impossible to tell good from bad. The prime concern of the security services and people who vet potential staff must be security, and if that is the case, the ethnic/religious background of a potential employee should be taken into account in institutions that are key to national security. |
I would imagine it already is, it's just not trumpeted that muslims need not apply, because they are prejudged a threat.
| bigverne wrote: |
It isn't my fault that this approach doesn't allow 'for a conception of Muslims that isn't associated with terror' |
It's not the approach that doesn't allow for it, YOU don't allow for it.
| bigverne wrote: |
...it is the fault of those Muslims who seek to commit mass murder. You seem to be unable to face reality, and that sometimes idealistic notions of equality and fairness cannot be applied in all circumstances and at all times. |
It's not a matter of idealistic dreams of equality - **** being fair when you're being threatened - it's a matter of a reasoned response to the actual threat. A few muslims are actually a threat. Work to find out who those people are, and having found them discriminate all the live long day. They're criminals and deserve the same treatment as any other criminal under the law.
Those muslims who you say are a 'tiny minority' are at fault for associating all of Islam with terrorism. Sure, I agree they are the most visible face of Islam to the west - but that doesn't mean you have to do the terrorists work for them and demand the groups be seperated. By advocating your proposals you're working towards the same goal as the terrorists - seperation and war between muslims and the rest of the world.
| bigverne wrote: |
But no other group in the UK causes nearly as many problems as Muslims. No other group has failed so utterly to integrate. No other group has formed countless organisations with the aim of supporting terrorism or Shariah Law. No other group adheres to a hostile creed whose values are completely incompatible with those of our society. Muslim immigration has been a total failure all across Europe and people are waking up to the disaster it has been. We need to face up honestly to this problem now, or we will face serious strife in the future. |
Never been to the UK, so I'll accept your (and steveg's) assessment. I agree that as it stands it is cause for concern, but I feel that your proposals would only exacerbate the problem. They haven't intergrated so you want to subject them to a different law, than applies to the rest of the country. My feeling is that this will cause further isolation, and lessen the possibility of intergration. Organisations supporting terror, should be, and are (aren't they??) illegal.
| bigverne wrote: |
Yes, I do think Muslim immigration should be stopped, for the reasons stated above, and I am quite happy to defend such a measure. I advocated the revoking of UK citizenship for Muslims not born in the UK, and who could not speak the language or who were unemployed or had a criminal record. The kind of people who should never have been given the benefits of UK citizenship in the first place. |
Here, I can't agree...even considering the reasons above these measures scream facism to me.
| bigverne wrote: |
Banning Muslims from working in institutions key to national security would increase security, and for you to ignore this obvious point shows that you are blinded by PC dogma, the facts be damned. |
It wont work for the reasons I mentioned and which you , in part, agreed with. Read on.
| bigverne wrote: |
| happenignthang wrote: |
| They're white, christian and sympathetic. Your ideas wont work. If you're a dedicated terrorist, you want to infiltrate somewhere, but they don't allow muslims...Hey presto. I'm a born again christian, who hates allah!! Let me in boys! |
Yes, I agree that it would be hard to spot such people. However, the fact remains that the security threat we face comes from young Asian, Muslim males and banning them from certain sectors would increase our safety, though of course no system is 100% effective. As for the Muslim who 'converts' to Christianity, obviously he would be banned as such a conversion would be obviously suspect. |
PC dogma be damned indeed, since I'm showing flaws in your proposal, rather than insisting on a dogma. You're the one who's being insistent.
| bigverne wrote: |
No I assume they are handicapped by the kind of PC policies you propose, the kind of idiotic policies which dominate many public institutions, including the police, and indeed the security services. That is why one of the suspects had an access-all-areas security pass to Heathrow. We are so concerned about not offending people that we will not take the necessary precautions to protect ourselves. |
What, I proposed a PC policy? Perhaps I inferred one, (see how that happens) but no...I didn't . As I said earlier discrimination against a threat to social order is called, an "arrest" and "jail". Terrorists are criminals, not enemy combatants (although they see themselves in that light, and hope you do too). It's not a PC policy to prefer active and effective policing applied to those who are actually a threat, as opposed to blanket discrimination. You complain muslims aren't integrated into society, but you want to deny them access to the institutions that would help achieve intergration.
| bigverne wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
| Makes me wonder why you chose to address the smaller concerns over the larger picture |
Which would be what exactly?
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You can't figure that out on your own? It was heavily implied in what I wrote, but this one implication you choose to ignore?
| happeningthang wrote: |
the UK becoming a facistic state, condoning and institutionalising discrimination. |
| bigverne wrote: |
| bigverne wrote: |
You'd hold a whole group of people accountable for those few? |
In order to reduce the threat of people being murdered, yes. |
This is why I accuse you of massive over-reaction. Why don't you ban cars to save human life- because it's a fact of life. Why don't you ban football to prevent hooliganism?
| bigverne wrote: |
Right, I must have just dreamt that 4 Muslim men murdered 60 civilians on 7-7. |
I was referring to the scale of the threat when I called it a 'perceived threat'. I think you imagine the scale of the threat to be much greater than it actually is. Sorry if I was unclear.
edited for language |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| sundubuman wrote: |
| At some point we have to stand and defend our own civilization. |
What I love about all this, is that you have no idea how ridiculous that statement is. |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Uranus
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| What I love about all this, is that you have no idea how ridiculous that statement is. |
What I love about all this, is that you have no idea how ridiculous that statement is. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| A few muslims are actually a threat. Work to find out who those people are, and having found them discriminate all the live long day. They're criminals and deserve the same treatment as any other criminal under the law. |
And what about those Muslims who have no previous criminal record, no links whatsoever to Jihadists groups, and who lead a quiet and low profile life, but you could become 'radicalised' at some point in the future?
This is the point you continue to ignore. Some Muslims will not set off any security concerns, but still, by the mere fact they are Muslims, are far more likely to be later engaged in terrorist activity. We cannot afford to be so slack with our security, to ensure that we do not 'discriminate'. We cannot afford that luxury.
| Quote: |
| By advocating your proposals you're working towards the same goal as the terrorists - seperation and war between muslims and the rest of the world. |
Again, ridiculous hyperbole. I am saying that Muslims should be banned from a tiny minority of very select positions. This does not amount to 'seperation and war' as you so ludicrously state.
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| but I feel that your proposals would only exacerbate the problem |
No, increasing the Muslim population, like adding fuel to the fire, would exacerbate the problem.
| Quote: |
| PC dogma be damned indeed, since I'm showing flaws in your proposal |
You may be showing flaws in my proposal, and I have admitted that no security system is 100% foolproof. However, just because my policy may not stop some people, it will stop the majority of people most likely to be involved in terrorism (Muslims). You are arguing against it on the basis that it is not 100% effective, which is absurd, since no security policy could be. However, it is preferable to a system which does not take the religious background of applicants into consideration.
| Quote: |
| This is why I accuse you of massive over-reaction. Why don't you ban cars to save human life- because it's a fact of life. Why don't you ban football to prevent hooliganism? |
Silly comparison. One job of the government is to manage risk and to take practical measures to protect the public. It is simply impossible to ban cars. However, we do take necessary and practical measures to make the roads less dangerous - speed limits, drunk driving laws etc.
They are key to our lives and there would be severe economic problems if people could not move around and commute.
Football hooliganism results in relatively few deaths, and indeed the police do take any practical measures to reduce this threat.
In the same way, banning Muslims from working in key institutions could be done very easily and would increase security. Thus, it should be done. |
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safeblad
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:30 am Post subject: |
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OK. I am living in Bethnal Green (for 2 more days), a few mins walk to Banglatown and the East London Mosque, round my end there is more HFC (Halal Fried Chicken) than KFC, there are also lots of women walking round seemingly dressed in Darth Vader costumes.
I accept that in many cases Muslims are poorly integrated into Britain. I went to the RISE anti-racism festival the other week; I didn�t see many (south) Asians there, though how would I know if they were Hindu or Muslim? There are some successes though, off the top of my head Sajid Mahmood and Amir Kahn, I know these are only two people, but integration is possible.
I cant advocate discrimination on grounds of faith in the 21st Century, if only because on a personal level, my muslim neighbours are polite and hardworking, I also met many liberal (though practising) muslims at University, some of whom remain my friends. I agree with whoever said that discrimination in the workplace will only create more problems, the asian youth already feel as though there is a glass ceiling, to publicly make them second class citizens, say that none are to be trusted, that�s just wrong. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:51 am Post subject: |
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| I cant advocate discrimination on grounds of faith in the 21st Century, if only because on a personal level, my muslim neighbours are polite and hardworking |
That's exactly what they said about the 7-7 murderers. Nice, quiet lads. I'm not saying your neighbours are terrorists, but the fact is that we simply can't tell who will be the next would be terrorists. What we do know is that they will almost certainly be of a Muslim background.
Basically, you are willing to compromise public safety on the idealistic grounds that discrimination has 'no place in the 21st Century.'
| Quote: |
| I agree with whoever said that discrimination in the workplace will only create more problems, the asian youth already feel as though there is a glass ceiling, to publicly make them second class citizens, say that none are to be trusted, that�s just wrong. |
Stop with this 'Asian youth' nonsense. We are talking quite specifically about Muslims. Hindus and Sikhs actually do very well in the UK, so please don't lump them in with Muslims. Also, your glass ceiling reference is absurd. We are talking about access to a tiny number of job vacancies, at ports, nuclear facilities and within the defence establishment. I have no doubt that such a measure would cause an almighty storm of Muslim whining, but I think we're pretty much immune to that now anyway.
Public safety comes before the 'feelings' of Muslims. That is the bottom line. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:53 am Post subject: |
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One female british muslim who has managed to do well in the UK:
Monica Ali
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| She is the author of Brick Lane, her debut novel, which was shortlisted for the Man Booker Prize for Fiction in 2003. Ali was voted Granta's Best of Young British Novelists on the basis of the unpublished manuscript. |
Although, since her mother is 100% British, I guess she doesn't count right? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:07 am Post subject: |
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They are going to make a film of Monica Ali's book, although they won't be actually able to film it in Brick Lane because of the threat of violence. Certain members of the Bengali community say that the book is an insult to their community.
Yes, there are certain success stories and many examples of integrated, truly moderate Muslims. Unfortunately, they are outnumbered by the religious nutjobs and conservative 'community leaders'. |
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safeblad
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:14 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
Stop with this 'Asian youth' nonsense. We are talking quite specifically about Muslims. Hindus and Sikhs actually do very well in the UK, so please don't lump them in with Muslims. Also, your glass ceiling reference is absurd. We are talking about access to a tiny number of job vacancies, at ports, nuclear facilities and within the defence establishment. I have no doubt that such a measure would cause an almighty storm of Muslim whining, but I think we're pretty much immune to that now anyway.
Public safety comes before the 'feelings' of Muslims. That is the bottom line. |
i know we are talking specifically about Muslims because all your posts are about Muslims. If the BBC can use �Asian� when referring to something like the Bradford riots then so can I.
If we are talking about a tiny minority of positions, then applicants will be well screened anyway, there isn�t any need to legislate. I wouldn�t be surprised if discriminatory procedure is already in place. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| She lives in south London with her husband, Simon, a management consultant, and their two children, Felix and Shumi. |
A highly unusual example of a highly educated, fully integrated Muslim women. Unfortunately, many other young Muslim girls are sent back to the subcontinent to marry their cousins. |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:19 am Post subject: |
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| If we are talking about a tiny minority of positions, then applicants will be well screened anyway, there isn�t any need to legislate |
Have you ever been to Heathrow? There are a hell of a lot of Muslims working there, so clearly we do need to legislate, so that in the future the religious background of applicants can be taken into consideration. |
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safeblad
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:25 am Post subject: |
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| bigverne wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If we are talking about a tiny minority of positions, then applicants will be well screened anyway, there isn�t any need to legislate |
Have you ever been to Heathrow? There are a hell of a lot of Muslims working there, so clearly we do need to legislate, so that in the future the religious background of applicants can be taken into consideration. |
how do you know they are muslims? Are they brown? Do you mean Asian Youth? |
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bigverne
Joined: 12 May 2004
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| Heathrow is right next to some major Muslim districts. I think it is safe to assume that plenty of the employees at Heathrow are Muslim. In fact, one of those arrested in the recent foiled terror plot had an access all areas security pass. Clearly no threat to security there. |
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safeblad
Joined: 17 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:06 am Post subject: |
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we wont change each-others minds bigverne but i appreciate where you are coming from, i think.
ill give you something to think about instead.
good friend of mine lives in hounslow, one of the major muslim districts your refer to, he is the only white guy on his street and he is from poland. The planes fly right over the area really low. Low enough for a guy with an RPG to....... That is really what we should be worried about. |
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stevieg4ever
Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Location: London, England
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2006 8:11 am Post subject: |
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its playing with fire thats what it is. if things carry on as they are and they succeed with one of these plots then the bradford riots will look like an anal korean drama compared to what would happen if lives on a large scale were lost. it might be the lesser of numerous evils to bring in harsher restrictions for muslims now othwrwise Bradford, Leeds, Birmingham, Manchester, London et all could errupt.
btw two interesting developments today: 1/ blair is meeting with muslim mps who, allegedly, used the meeting to call fro the introduction of public holidays based on muslim holy days - WHAT A LOAD OF C*&^ - on the grounds that it would make their youth more receptive to British society if the rest of the country were seen to be more aware of Islam.  Nothing like timing is there
2/ security services are now seriously thinking about racial profiling at airports.
| bigverne wrote: |
| In fact, one of those arrested in the recent foiled terror plot had an access all areas security pass. Clearly no threat to security there. |
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