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SuperFly
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Location: In the doghouse
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 Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| That whole John Shaw/Cyclotourist has been around for years. I remember back in 1998(?) he had this huge thread complete w/death threats to all who replied to his thread looking for a female travel companionon the thorn tree. The whole thing was so funny, but sad. |
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Smee
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Location: Jeollanam-do
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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The Korea Times' coverage.
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On the Internet website of Korea Foreign Teacher Recruiting Association (www.kftra.co.kr), which started in February, appears a blacklist of 19 native English teachers who are accused of unacceptable teaching manners as well as crimes. The list was put up by owners and managers of English institutes and schools who suffered due to the blacklisted teachers. The list includes names, passport numbers and birth dates.
Most of them are charged with leaving for their home countries without notice, hence breaking their contracts. Other accusations include forging university degrees, stealing personal computers and sexual harassment.
Choi Hyuk, the founder of the recruiting agency said that the list is aimed at minimizing damage to South Korean English institutes due to irresponsible or illegal actions by native English teachers.
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Choi said he had to reveal the private information of the teachers, as it was the last means to punish them.
``After doing bad things, they just left. And there are no legal means to punish them. So we decided to list their names so that they can never come back to Korea and work as English teachers, '' said Choi. ``In order to enhance credibility of the list, we will delete those without a source or contact information of the person who reported the teacher. We have asked the Immigration Bureau to limit employment opportunities for problematic native English teachers but to no avail. The government should revise laws about employing native English teachers, including strengthening the screening process for issuing E2 Visas which are being unscrupulously issued to unqualified English teachers for English education purposes.''
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http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200608/kt2006081617531711990.htm
Perhaps they'll be as stringent in cracking down on prostitution. 
http://www.eslcafe.com/forums/korea/viewtopic.php?t=63805&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight= |
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Smee
Joined: 24 Dec 2004
Location: Jeollanam-do
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 2:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm sure this has been covered before, but is a real blacklist even possible? I see that a number of recruiters worked together to compile this one, but is it really affiliated with Korean immigration? Aside from these recruiters not offering jobs to these 20 or so people, does this website really do anything? |
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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Blacklists don't work on either front, due to their one-sided nature and potential for embellishment. Some blacklists have been proven to be scams in the past, as well as teachers have been proven to be full of BS based on their public recollection of events and then other people privy to the event come on and give another perspective. Lots of embarrassing history on here, in that regard.
Hence why blacklists, more often than not, appear to get used for personal axe grinding and should not be a sticky. It's bad enough that the contract-needling threads don't offer balanced advice by trying to first suggest negotiation and saying things such as 'ask the director to negotiate and if they are flexible with removing this or changing this wording' and instead its more like 'forget it. walk away'. You can't keep grudge out of these threads, then no sense in creating a larger platform for it.
Last edited by chronicpride on Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Billy Pilgrim
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| chronicpride wrote: |
Blacklists don't work on either front, due to their one-sided nature and potential for embellishment. Some blacklists have been proven to be scams in the past, as well as teachers have been proven to be full of BS based on their public recollection of events and then other people privy to the event come on and give another perspective. Lots of embarrassing history on here, in that regard.
Hence why blacklists, more often than not, appear to get used for personal axe grinding and should not be a sticky. It's bad enough that the contract-needling threads don't offer balanced advice by saying things such as 'ask the director to negotiate and if they are flexible with removing this or changing this wording' and instead its more like 'forget it. walk away'. You can't keep grudge out of these threads, then no sense in creating a larger platform for it. |
Exactly. Same goes for what the Koreans are attempting here. All they need to do is CHECK REFERENCES WHEN THEY HIRE PEOPLE!! It's not rocket science. |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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As I said, posting an individual's passport information without written consent from that person is a violation of Korean law. That same law specifies the penalties and fines applicable.
Rather than contacting an embassy, a person whose information is there should contact a lawyer or law enforcement. |
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seoulsista
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| chronicpride wrote: |
Hence why blacklists, more often than not, appear to get used for personal axe grinding and should not be a sticky. It's bad enough that the contract-needling threads don't offer balanced advice by trying to first suggest negotiation and saying things such as 'ask the director to negotiate and if they are flexible with removing this or changing this wording' and instead its more like 'forget it. walk away'. You can't keep grudge out of these threads, then no sense in creating a larger platform for it. |
The thought behind "walk away" is that if they are unreasonable enough to write outrageous things into their contract there is no point in trying to negotiate because more likely than not they are telling you whatever they can to get you over here only to greet you with different but equally unfair demands. A bad contract speaks to the character of the director and the recruiter.
BTW, I apologize if this has been asked before but why can't recruiters check references and go onto the website of the prospective teacher's former University and call the registrar's office directly? |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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I agree. If enough potential teachers "walk away" because of a scary looking contract, maybe the school will have the good sense to change the contract?  |
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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| seoulsista wrote: |
| chronicpride wrote: |
Hence why blacklists, more often than not, appear to get used for personal axe grinding and should not be a sticky. It's bad enough that the contract-needling threads don't offer balanced advice by trying to first suggest negotiation and saying things such as 'ask the director to negotiate and if they are flexible with removing this or changing this wording' and instead its more like 'forget it. walk away'. You can't keep grudge out of these threads, then no sense in creating a larger platform for it. |
The thought behind "walk away" is that if they are unreasonable enough to write outrageous things into their contract there is no point in trying to negotiate because more likely than not they are telling you whatever they can to get you over here only to greet you with different but equally unfair demands. A bad contract speaks to the character of the director and the recruiter.
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I'd agree with you if this were not Korea, the land of a buttload of bad english and a glut of misunderstanding. Not to suggest that every disagreeable caveat is a misunderstanding or poor english execution, but that should be enough to at least ask questions and negotiate. In a land famous for its interest in negotiating and less on the written word (this does not just apply to the ESL industry here. It's the centuries old concept of 'jung' that is still prevalent in all industries. Doesn't mean that they are all crooked. It's just how things are done and have always been done.), newbs should be encouraged to negotiate that contract in hopes to reach a better ideal. Every contract that I've ever been on has been negotiated. Anyone who signs without negotiation is just asking for trouble. But none of the advice-givers on these threads ever tell people that.
Think about. A prospective teacher walks away from an ass contract without effort to negotiate. What happens? Another newb walks into it and gets hosed. Wouldn't it be more proactive to negotiate that contract and try to shape something good out of it, so the next time that they hire they likely use that same contract template that they used for the last teacher, and make things clearer and better for future folks?
Putting on a pout, folding arms and refusing to negotiate for something better doesn't help you, nor the next guy. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| seoulsista wrote: |
| BTW, I apologize if this has been asked before but why can't recruiters check references and go onto the website of the prospective teacher's former University and call the registrar's office directly? |
I believe the issue with employers contacting the university directly is that it is releasing personal information, which the most universities won't do even with a letter of release. I've heard of situation in Korean where an employer wants to contact the university directly, but they were told it is not possible to do that. |
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jjurabong
Joined: 22 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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a surprisingly prompt reply from the embassy - it would seem the passport #'s have already been pulled. ( I haven't checked myself ):
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Thank you for forwarding the link to the Korean Foreign Teacher Recruiting Association website. The website does not seem to be breaking any international or Korean laws. The Korean Privacy Act only applies to government organizations - not private businesses and trade associations. Thus, the KFTRA is free to publish information that it feels would be useful to their members - even personal information.
The information included on the site's Blacklist is as follows:
Country of Nationality
Gender
Name
Date listed
Date of Birth
Reason for entry
When I visited the site earlier this morning, I found that all the passport numbers of the Canadians had been deleted.
Should an individual listed on the site feel that the listing in unjustified, he or she may obtain legal advice from a Korean lawyer. It may be possible to sue for libel. The Canadian Embassy does not get involved in legal personal legal matters, but does provide a list of recommended lawyers.
If this site were in Canada, the Canadian Privacy Act and the provincial privacy acts would not allow this information to be shared. However, we are not in Canada. The information on this website is only meant to help the KFTRA members as they hire new instructors. There is even a section where schools are cited for bad business practices. Unfortunately, this site is only in Korean making it incomprehensible for most prospective English language teachers.
I am sorry that the embassy cannot be of any assistance in this instance. |
Last edited by jjurabong on Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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PortHardy
Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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You can contact most universities and they will give you the basic information that an employer wants.
I did this for my previous school when the fake degree thing was big news so when the school did a hiring, I called the universities of anyone the school considered hiring and they all gave me the information I required.
All I did was give the universities the date of birth, name, and the info on their degree that they sent.
Try it at your iniversity. Call them and say that you are a school in Korea and you need to verify that "yourself" graduated from that university. You'll be surprised at how much information they will give you if you ask properly. |
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PortHardy
Joined: 16 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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As for the blacklist of teachers, who really cares...it really isn't going to make a big difference.
From my 6 years of experience in Korea, I would say about 80-90% of the teachers I have met are good enough. The same number probably goes for English schools.
On the flip side, I have seen some really dishonest or messed up teachers and directors.
Unfortunately, these blacklist sites are viewed by only 10-20% of the prospective teachers. A blacklist of teachers will probably only be seen by less tha 5% of the schools.
They're never going to change as there's always going to be enough new teachers wanting to teach in Korea or enough schools that are in need of a teacher. |
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Cheonmunka
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2006 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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#5
Briefly:
The writer is an organiser for a private English program in an elementary sch and congradulates the website.
The writer got ripped off actually by the foreigner. The foreigner had the bank account in his name, the Korean organiser didn't. They signed a contract at first but the foreign guy took exception to not having all the money himself, and to giving the organiser any entitled money.
That's briefly...
BTW: The organiser was unregistered. I don't think one has to be registered in these situations as the contract is made between the principal and other private individuals. However, the money must be paid to the teacher, not to any organiser or manager, hence the bank account. |
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chronicpride
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| PortHardy wrote: |
As for the blacklist of teachers, who really cares...it really isn't going to make a big difference.
From my 6 years of experience in Korea, I would say about 80-90% of the teachers I have met are good enough. The same number probably goes for English schools.
On the flip side, I have seen some really dishonest or messed up teachers and directors.
Unfortunately, these blacklist sites are viewed by only 10-20% of the prospective teachers. A blacklist of teachers will probably only be seen by less tha 5% of the schools.
They're never going to change as there's always going to be enough new teachers wanting to teach in Korea or enough schools that are in need of a teacher. |
The above post is about as accurate as it gets. |
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