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Do the Israelis have guts (and good sense) to wage peace?
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 12:23 am    Post subject: Do the Israelis have guts (and good sense) to wage peace? Reply with quote

Time To Change the Tune

As Israelis began trying this week to make sense of their bruising five-week war in Lebanon, discussion has returned again and again to the traumatic Yom Kippur War of 1973. Then as now, Israel�s vaunted military machine was caught with its pants down, locked into a strategic concept � static defense lines then, air dominance now � that had become obsolete. Then as now, the war ended in a victory that felt more like defeat, leaving Israel�s enemies crowing and Israelis fearing for their very future. This time, with Israel�s military deterrent exposed as lacking and jihadist rage mounting among the world�s billion Muslims, the fears feel very real.

But there is another, more hopeful parallel between 1973 and now, for those willing to see it. Back then, the mixed results of the war reshuffled the strategic balance in the Middle East, opening the way for a diplomatic flurry � tirelessly orchestrated by Secretary of State Henry Kissinger � that ultimately led to a peace treaty with Egypt, Israel�s most powerful Arab foe. This week, growing numbers of Israeli strategists are speaking of a similar opening arising from the latest war. They see an opportunity for Israel to reach out to moderate Arab and Muslim states, a chance to forge a common front against the extremist threat from Iran and Hezbollah. The price of admission: a regional peace accord, including a resolution of the Palestinian issue and genuine Arab recognition of Israel, that enables the moderates to unite and thus isolates the extremists.

�We need a realignment in the region,� says veteran Labor Party lawmaker Ephraim Sneh, a reserve brigadier general and former deputy defense minister. �We need to create a new balance with the all the moderate countries on one side� � and the extremists on the other.

By �moderate countries,� Sneh is thinking first of all the nearby Arab states that have made peace with Israel or hinted at it clearly in recent decades, beginning with Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and the Palestinians. Not coincidentally, all of them are Sunni Muslim societies that view the Shi�ite Iran-Hezbollah axis with fear and loathing.

As it happens, every one of the target nations has sent urgent signals to Israel in recent weeks, making it clear that they want to do business. Israelis must now ask themselves what price they would have to pay to join the game, and what role they need their American ally to play to make it work.

The Egyptians, as usual, are leading the way. Their security services have been working frantically in the past month to separate the Hamas-led Palestinian government from its Hezbollah allies, to secure the release of kidnapped Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit and to create a unified Palestinian negotiating partner for peace talks with Israel, under the clear leadership of the Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas.

Hamas � at least its local wing in the territories � seems desperate to buy in; it has endorsed the Egyptian initiative and cracked down on rocket fire. This week it approved a unity government with Fatah and announced that it had �no problem negotiating with Israel.�

With Egypt playing enforcer, the Saudis have taken on the role of pitchman. Three weeks ago, midway through the war, they dusted off their 2002 peace plan, known as the King Fahd plan, which offered Israel full peace and normalized relations with all 22 Arab states in return for �solving the Palestinian problem.� It included Palestinian statehood within the 1967 borders (details to be negotiated between Israel and the Palestinians) and a �resolution of the refugee problem� (essentially repatriating a symbolic group and compensating the rest, diplomats said). What was new in this month�s announcement was this ominous warning: Given the mounting level of anti-Israel rage in the region, the offer might not be on the table forever. It�s time, Saudi officials said, for a regional settlement that brings Israel into the Middle Eastern family. The alternative is chaos.

Israelis rejected the Saudi plan back in 2002 as demanding too much from them. At this point, given a choice between the Fahd plan and the prospect of Iranian regional dominance, the Fahd plan is looking better and better, officials say privately.

There are a few wild cards in the scenario. One of them is Syria. As long as it remains tied to Iran and Hezbollah, there may be no way to neutralize the terrorist militia, a basic Israeli condition for any deal. Nor can the Fahd plan be completed with

Syria, a key Arab state, holding out. This week�s �victory� speech by the Syrian president, Bashar Assad, set an alarmingly shrill tone, promising continued support for Hezbollah and even threatening military action on the Golan Heights, something Damascus has avoided for 33 years. Tucked within Assad�s speech, though, was a very different message: a call to Israel, repeated several times, to �turn toward peace� and so avoid defeat. Assad may have been reading from the playbook used by Egyptian President Anwar Sadat in the early 1970s: Threaten fire and brimstone, claim you�ve redeemed your honor through military victory, then open a quiet channel to talk peace.

And that raises the second wild card: Are Israelis ready to join? The answer isn�t simple. Defense Minister Amir Peretz, the Labor Party leader, opened the debate this week with a speech urging Israel to �renew our dialogue with the Palestinians� and to �create the conditions for dialogue with Syria.� �Every war creates an opportunity for a new political process,� he said.

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni of the Kadima party said much the same thing the same day. Last week�s unanimous United Nations Security Council resolution, with its clear blaming of Hezbollah and refusal to condemn Israel, creates �a window of opportunity,� she said.

For now, the main roadblock is Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. Whether out of mistrust of Arab intentions, emotional attachment to the settlements or fear of political retribution from the right, he is rejecting talk of a Syrian opening or a renewed Fahd plan. Aides say he�s not ready to jump in.

A plan for easing into regional dialogue more gently was offered this week by Yossi Beilin, leader of the left-wing Meretz party and architect of the 1993 Oslo Accords. Beilin is calling for a reconvening of the Madrid Conference, an all-party Middle East roundtable convened in 1991 by President George H.W. Bush. Summoned in the wake of the 1991 Gulf War, the conference brought all the main Middle East players around a single table and then broke up into working committees, some of which continue to stumble along, at least on paper. In Beilin�s view, calling a conference like that would let the parties sit together without committing themselves to a predetermined result. They could simply say that Uncle Sam made them come.

And that raises the third wild card: whether the current President Bush is willing and able to do what has to be done. Right now he�s torn between the pragmatists in his administration, who favor dialogue, and the ideologues, who insist on seeing the world in blacks and whites and are willing to keep fighting to the last Israeli. Bush�s own instincts are with the ideologues, though he�s shown himself capable of acting pragmatically when he sees the need.

That is the challenge for Israel�s friends right now. Bush has been convinced by self-appointed spokesmen for Israel and the Jewish community that endless war is in Israel�s interest. He needs to hear in no uncertain terms that Israel is ready for dialogue, that the alternative � endless jihad � is unthinkable. Now is time to change the tune.



http://www.forward.com/articles/time-to-change-the-tune/
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Junior



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"Does Israel have the guts"
is a highly unfair and patronising title. I think you'll find Israel has consistently sought peace but its gestures and concessions have always been thrown back in their face by a lose unity of Arab nations that have only the long term goal of israel's destruction. Olive branches are seen as weakness and surrender and simply incite even greater agression on the part of its enemies.

What did Israel get for Gaza? nothing.
What did Israel get for a full withdrawal from lebanon in 2000? A build up of hesbollah terrorists on their northern border.

I think the question should be: Does the Arab world have the guts to finally accept and live peacefully with Israel?
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thepeel



Joined: 08 Aug 2004

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good god there are a lot of posts on this site about Israel and Jews.

Those of you who keep posting the same tired stuff over and over again ought to take a look around the world. There are some REAL villains out there. But I suspect that the type of person who slams the Jews doesn't have the testicular fortitude to smash around a 'brown' country. The type of person who kicks around the most kicked around people on our silly planet simply won't have it in himself to take a Muslim at his word when he says he wants to kill all Jews as that will force him to make a value judgement and call a spade a spade and an uncivilized barbarian an uncivilized barbarian.

The majority of Jews in the Middle East want peace.
The majority of Muslims in the Middle East want all Jews dead.

The above is objectively true, and can be tested and confirmed through a wide variety of means (opinion polls, rhetoric of leaders, actions of civilians/soldiers etc etc.).

Despite the above being true, we must play this game of Muslims being oppressed (by Jews, Americans etc) masses (of course, when most of those doing the analysis are either marxists, former marxists or cult-marxists it is easy to see how they come to the conclusion of a zero-sum equation) who just need a little more respect and bank and, !BAM!, they will be civilized.

Nonsense. Muslims have behaved this way for hundreds of years and will continue to behave this way in the future. Non-Muslim religious groups are dirt and must exist only under Muslim domination. The very existence of Israel is a slam in the face to the Islamists (how dare they be disobeyed!?!). Israel must be protected and must protect herself. This doesn't mean that she should behave like the Muslims and directly target civilians, indeed she must avoid civilian deaths whenever that is possible, but it does mean that she has the right to fight back.
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sundubuman



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to nominate the previous post for Post of The Year.
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Junior



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sundubuman wrote:
I'd like to nominate the previous post for Post of The Year.


Absolutely.
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ddeubel



Joined: 20 Jul 2005

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like he is describing the next blockbuster Zombie movie......Muslims are dead, unthinking, blood thirsty....... Lets take out our shotguns and blast away.

Proof of how misinformed, sensational and effective the western media have been, on the wake of the wave of 9 11, creating such opinion. Lowest common denominator.

Ive addressed all this before but just respond to call it the swampwater it is....

DD
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R. S. Refugee



Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Location: Shangra La, ROK

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 5:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ddeubel wrote:
Sounds like he is describing the next blockbuster Zombie movie......Muslims are dead, unthinking, blood thirsty....... Lets take out our shotguns and blast away.

Proof of how misinformed, sensational and effective the western media have been, on the wake of the wave of 9 11, creating such opinion. Lowest common denominator.

Ive addressed all this before but just respond to call it the swampwater it is....

DD


dd, you'll really, really enjoy it if ersatzprofessor ever returns to this discussion board. He is the most eloquent, spirited, and passionate filleter (metaphorically speaking, Junior) of rightwing bigots you could ever hope to meet. He used to rapidly make minch meat (once again a metaphor, Junior) of the Gang That Couldn't Think Straight before he had his breakfast. A delight to behold such debating talent. (Even if he is another Canadian. Laughing) He got busy when he went back to take another degree and hasn't been posting for about a year now. He still reads the posts here sometimes though, I hear.

I think you'd like him a lot.
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sundubuman



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

the previous post is proof of the moral bankruptcy of many (not all) on the left.

for it highlights the desire to DEBATE, OUTWIT, OUTTHINK, the supposed other...in this case the "right-wing" irregardless of any sense of ultimate morality.

what a sad spectacle it is watching otherwise free and presumably 'enlightened' thinkers arguing on behalf of religious facists who are intent on destroying the one and only Jewish state.

as sad as it is...it certainly helps to illuminate certain forces that led to the darkest chapters of western history.....
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happeningthang



Joined: 26 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sundubuman wrote:
the previous post is proof of the moral bankruptcy of many (not all) on the left.

for it highlights the desire to DEBATE, OUTWIT, OUTTHINK, the supposed other...in this case the "right-wing" irregardless of any sense of ultimate morality.
what a sad spectacle it is watching otherwise free and presumably 'enlightened' thinkers arguing on behalf of religious facists who are intent on destroying the one and only Jewish state.

as sad as it is...it certainly helps to illuminate certain forces that led to the darkest chapters of western history.....


What is the "ultimate" morality?
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sundubuman



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

umm..

thou shall not kill...the golden rule....

go to www.memri.org to try to understand how large parts of the Arab and Muslim world is either A. in open or B. passive violation of these eternal moral truths.


I'm curious as to how many of you on the anti-israel side....would have found yourselves either advocating for or arguing away the threat posed to us (all of us, that is) by Germany in the 1930's.

Your lack of foresight in the current crisis both astounds and frightens me.

However, as one who got a degree in history, it is highly educational, so I suppose I owe you some gratitude....in a sad way.
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Bulsajo



Joined: 16 Jan 2003

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Do the Israelis have guts (and good sense) to wage peace?

Do I really need to say it?
Yet another example of a retarded topic header.
Deflects from what may or may not have been an interesting thread and an interesting article, but I'm not even going to bother reading either of them.

Q: Do the Israelis have guts (and good sense) to wage peace? Rolling Eyes

A: No. Clearly as a vicious moronic people who seek nothing but violence and destruction they will never want peace and will remain perpetually gutless and lacking good sense.
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happeningthang



Joined: 26 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sundubuman wrote:
umm..

thou shall not kill...the golden rule....

go to www.memri.org to try to understand how large parts of the Arab and Muslim world is either A. in open or B. passive violation of these eternal moral truths.


Yeh, I've been on Memri before, and yes, there are some aggresive, hate filled, amoral people on there. But Arabs and parts of the Muslim world don't exactly have a monopoly on that. There are people on this site advocating war, and a "kill 'em all" approach. Doesn't that make them amoral as well?
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sundubuman



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

equivocation...moral equivalency......

graduate yourself from university already.

look at yourself...

you are trying to draw a parallel between STATE-SPONSORED BROADCASTS OF INDOCTRINATING CHILDREN INTO JEW-HATRED

and the posts of a few web browsers.


Are you friggin BLIND?


Last edited by sundubuman on Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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happeningthang



Joined: 26 Apr 2003

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sundubuman wrote:
equivocation...moral equivalency......

graduate yourself from university already.

look at yourself...

you are trying to draw a parallel between STATE-SPONSORED BROADCASTS OF JEW-HATRED

and the posts of a few web browsers.


Are you friggin BLIND?


Hey, you're arguing morality - not scale. Be consistent. It's immoral if it's a state or person.
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sundubuman



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul

PostPosted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

and you are stuck in a university classroom, totally unprepared for reality....which I am sorry to inform you, contains tens of millions of otherwise upstanding people...who feel absolutely NOTHING when a bus full of Jewish people is blown to bits by Islamic terrorists.

Which I am sure you can equivocate until we are all blue in the face.

after all, those Jewish transit riders must have somehow deserved their fate. And those who executed them SURELY must have a strong rationale supporting their barbarism.

Isn't that how the moral relativists MUST see things????
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