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R. S. Refugee

Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Location: Shangra La, ROK
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:40 am Post subject: Say,"Islamofacist?"You'd prob. get low TOEIC score |
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I could be more blunt in my accessment of the intelligence level (negative numbers?) of people who use such ridiculous terms as 'Islamofacists', but then I'm afraid my old sparing partner, Bulsajo, wouldn't like my headline writing and wouldn't read the article and then where would I be?
And, of course, I could be wrong. After all, our Dear Leader used the term recently and we all know he's something of an intellectual icon. Right?
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Katha Pollitt:
'The trouble with Bush's 'Islamofascism''
If you thought the War on Terror was bad, get ready for the international disasters that the "war on Islamic fascism" will produce.
If you control the language, you control the debate. As the Bush Administration's Middle Eastern policy sinks ever deeper into bloody incoherence, the "war on terror" has been getting a quiet linguistic makeover. It's becoming the "war on Islamic fascism." The term has been around for a while -- Nexis takes it back to 1990, when the writer and historian Malise Ruthven used "Islamo-fascism" in the London Independent to describe the authoritarian governments of the Muslim world; after 9/11 it was picked up by neocons and prowar pundits, including Stephen Schwartz in the Spectator and Christopher Hitchens in this magazine, to describe a broad swath of Muslim bad guys from Osama to the mullahs of Iran.
But the term moved into the mainstream this August when Bush referred to the recently thwarted Britain-based suicide attack plot on airplanes as "a stark reminder that this nation is at war with Islamic fascists." Joe Lieberman compares Iraq to "the Spanish Civil War, which was the harbinger of what was to come." The move away from "war on terrorism" arrives not a moment too soon for language fussbudgets who had problems with the idea of making war on a tactic. To say nothing of those who wondered why, if terrorism was the problem, invading Iraq was the solution. (From the President's August 21 press conference: Q: "But what did Iraq have to do with September 11?" A: "Nothing." Now he tells us!)
What's wrong with "Islamo-fascism"? For starters, it's a terrible historical analogy. Italian Fascism, German Nazism and other European fascist movements of the 1920s and '30s were nationalist and secular, closely allied with international capital and aimed at creating powerful, up-to-date, all-encompassing states. Some of the trappings might have been anti-modernist -- Mussolini looked back to ancient Rome, the Nazis were fascinated by Nordic mythology and other Wagnerian folderol -- but the basic thrust was modern, bureaucratic and rational. You wouldn't find a fascist leader consulting the Bible to figure out how to organize the banking system or the penal code or the women's fashion industry. Even its anti-Semitism was "scientific": The problem was the Jews' genetic inferiority and otherness, which countless biologists, anthropologists and medical researchers were called upon to prove -- not that the Jews killed Christ and refused to accept the true faith.
Call me pedantic, but if only to remind us that the worst barbarities of the modern era were committed by the most modern people, I think it is worth preserving "fascism" as a term with specific historical content.
Second, and more important, "Islamo-fascism" conflates a wide variety of disparate states, movements and organizations as if, like the fascists, they all want similar things and are working together to achieve them. Neocons have called Saddam Hussein and the Baathists of Syria Islamo-fascists, but these relatively secular nationalist tyrants have nothing in common with shadowy, stateless, fundamentalist Al Qaeda -- as even Bush now acknowledges -- or with the Taliban, who want to return Afghanistan to the seventh century; and the Taliban aren't much like Iran, which is different from (and somewhat less repressive than) Saudi Arabia -- whoops, our big ally in the Middle East! Who are the "Islamo-fascists" in Saudi Arabia -- the current regime or its religious-fanatical opponents? It was under the actually existing US-supported government that female students were forced back into their burning school rather than be allowed to escape unveiled. Under that government people are lashed and beheaded, women can't vote or drive, non-Muslim worship is forbidden, a religious dress code is enforced by the state through violence and Wahhabism -- the "Islamo-fascist" denomination--is exported around the globe.
"Islamo-fascism" looks like an analytic term, but really it's an emotional one, intended to get us to think less and fear more. It presents the bewildering politics of the Muslim world as a simple matter of Us versus Them, with war to the end the only answer, as with Hitler. If you doubt that every other British Muslim under the age of 30 is ready to blow himself up for Allah, or that shredding the Constitution is the way to protect ourselves from suicide bombers, if you think that Hamas might be less popular if Palestinians were less miserable, you get cast as Neville Chamberlain, while Bush plays FDR. "Islamo-fascism" rescues the neocons from harsh verdicts on the invasion of Iraq ("cakewalk... roses... sweetmeats... Chalabi") by reframing that ongoing debacle as a minor chapter in a much larger story of evil madmen who want to fly the green flag of Islam over the capitals of the West. Suddenly it's just a detail that Saddam wasn't connected with 9/11, had no WMDs, was not poised to attack the United States or Israel -- he hated freedom, and that was enough. It doesn't matter, either, that Iraqi Sunnis and Shiites seem less interested in uniting the umma than in murdering one another. With luck we'll be so scared we won't ask why anyone should listen to another word from people who were spectacularly wrong about the biggest politico-military initiative of the past thirty years, and their balding heads will continue to glow on our TV screens for many nights to come. On to Tehran!
It remains to be seen if "Islamo-fascism" will win back the socially liberal "security moms" who voted for Bush in 2004 but have recently been moving toward the Democrats. But the word is already getting a big reaction in the Muslim world. As I write the New York Times is carrying a full page "open letter" to Bush from the Al Kharafi Group, the mammoth Kuwaiti construction company, featuring photos of dead and wounded Lebanese civilians. "We think there is a misunderstanding in determining: "'Who deserves to be accused of being a fascist'!!!!"
"Islamo-fascism" enrages to no purpose the dwindling number of Muslims who don't already hate us. At the same time, it clouds with ideology a range of situations -- Lebanon, Palestine, airplane and subway bombings, Afghanistan, Iraq -- we need to see clearly and distinctly and deal with in a focused way. No wonder the people who brought us the disaster in Iraq are so fond of it.
Katha Pollitt is a columnist for The Nation.
http://alternet.org/waroniraq/40850/ |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006 Location: The Road to Ithaca
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:49 am Post subject: Re: Say,"Islamofacist?"You'd prob. get low TOEIC s |
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| R. S. Refugee wrote: |
| "Call me pedantic ... " |
Okay. You're pedantic. |
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R. S. Refugee

Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Location: Shangra La, ROK
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Say,"Islamofacist?"You'd prob. get low TOEIC s |
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| daskalos wrote: |
| R. S. Refugee wrote: |
| "Call me pedantic ... " |
Okay. You're pedantic. |
| daskalos wrote: |
Call me dyslexic.
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OK. You're dyslexic.
The "Call me pedantic..." quote should properly be attributed to the person who wrote the article, Kate Pollit, not me. But, there I go be pedantic just as you charged by commenting on such irrelevant facts, so I withdraw this comment.  |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006 Location: The Road to Ithaca
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 8:10 am Post subject: |
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Withdrawal noted and seconded. And I just aced several segments of a practice TOEIC.
And, withdrawal notwithstanding, Katha Pollit wrote that article, not Kate, but I guess your panties were in too much a twist to notice something like the writer's name. And in this case, if you wish to call me a pedant, you may also call me verifiably right. |
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R. S. Refugee

Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Location: Shangra La, ROK
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| daskalos wrote: |
Withdrawal noted and seconded. And I just aced several segments of a practice TOEIC.
And, withdrawal notwithstanding, Katha Pollit wrote that article, not Kate, but I guess your panties were in too much a twist to notice something like the writer's name. And in this case, if you wish to call me a pedant, you may also call me verifiably right. |
Or, perhaps verifiably half right, since it's Katha Pollitt. But I'm glad you pointed out the 'Kate' error anyway.
And congratulations on your TOEIC performance. |
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beck's
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think the anology between Islamic fascists and the Nazi variety is so terrible because:
1. Both varieties are virulently anti-semetic. The Nazis waged war to kill Jews. The deportation of the Hungarian Jews to the death camps is a case in point. They engineered this deportation when they knew they would lose the war. The Hungarian deportations were just before D Day. Also, trains bringing war supplies to the eastern front were put on sidings to give the Jewish transports priority. In a similar way the Islamic fascists are irrationally anti-semetic. Kill the Jews is a constant theme in their discourse.
2. Both varieties are irrational. The Islamic fascists are religious fanatics. Suicide bombers who believe they will get 72 virgins when they become martyrs are not thinking rationally. The Nazis were also irrational, believing in the myth of blood and soil and in the idea of the master race. These beliefs had no basis in rational thought. They rejected both the rationality of capitalism and that of communism.
3. Both varieties are imperialistic. The Nazis wanted to create an empire in the middle of Europe and had plans to eventually conquer North America and Africa. The Islamic fascists want to create a theocratic caliphate spanning the globe.
4. Both varieties practice censorship. The Nazis need no examples. The recent mass violence and intimidation practiced against the Danish cartoonists and their editiors who lampooned Islam provides a case in point. |
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deadman
Joined: 27 May 2006 Location: Suwon
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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| beck's wrote: |
| I don't think the anology between Islamic fascists and the Nazi variety is so terrible because: |
The question is, is fascist the right term? Is it an accurate and technically correct description, or is it an emotive and inaccurate term? The article makes a good case for it being a catchy spin phrase - and if you fail to recognise it as such and go around parroting it here and there as if it was a informed and authoritative term, then, yes, you're easily duped and maybe a dumd-a** to boot!
The most ridiculous thing about the term is the blatant pot-calling-kettle situation of Bush accusing someone else of being fascist (now there's someone who WOULD get a low TOEIC score).
Miriam-Webster defines fascism as
fas�cism
1 often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
2 : a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control <early instances of army fascism and brutality -- J. W. Aldridge>
Domestic spying, unprecendented use of signing statements by Bush, and increased police powers are to some a gradual move to what will in the end be a totalitarian police state, brought about in the name of "security", particularly if some disaster, manufactured or otherwise, precipitates the indefinite imposition of martial law.
And just to comment on your points
| Quote: |
| 1. Both varieties are virulently anti-semetic. The Nazis waged war to kill Jews. The deportation of the Hungarian Jews to the death camps is a case in point. They engineered this deportation when they knew they would lose the war. The Hungarian deportations were just before D Day. Also, trains bringing war supplies to the eastern front were put on sidings to give the Jewish transports priority. In a similar way the Islamic fascists are irrationally anti-semetic. Kill the Jews is a constant theme in their discourse. |
So is this a one-sided racial intolerance? I would say Jews and Arabs are equally predjudiced against the other, unlike Eurpoean Jewry and their, uh, host country (is that the right word?). It's a bit self serving, not to mention inaccurate, to characterise the current conflict as "Boo hoo, they want to kill us, what did we ever do to them".
Also I belive the "Kill the Jews" is a constant theme, but only in Jewish characterisations of the discourse. I think it is routinely exaggerated in order to excuse the often barbarous behaviour of Israel ("Hey, at least we're not as bad as them, they want to KILL US ALL")
An example of a argument against Israel in its current form that doesn't involve the extermination of the Jews (if you can even believe such a thing exists) was put forward recently by Mahatir Mohammed (ex-Malaysian PM) in an interview located here:
http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD126706
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Yvonne Ridley: "What do you see as the final solution in Palestine?"
Mahathir Mohammad: "Well, I think, in the first place, if Israel wants to be recognized as a state, it should withdraw back to its borders. It should allow the Palestinians who were expelled to come back and to own their houses and their farms again. And then we will see a process of democracy working in Israel. And if it so happens that the Arabs win in any democratic elections - they must be allowed to rule Israel. We could call it Israel, but it may not be just the land of the Jews, because this is racism taken to the extreme - when you only allow one race to rule the country." |
Since that is a pretty damn reasonable idea, yet completly unacceptable to the Jewish Israelis, it's not surprising they like to characterise all opposing debate as "SQUISH... THE... JEWS..." (Did she just say "final solution"? Aaah!)
When it comes down to it, though, it's a choice between a meaningful compromise like the one above, or constant war. It's quite clear the Israelis would prefer constant war to sharing the country with the Arabs.
| Quote: |
| 2. Both varieties are irrational. The Islamic fascists are religious fanatics. Suicide bombers who believe they will get 72 virgins when they become martyrs are not thinking rationally. The Nazis were also irrational, believing in the myth of blood and soil and in the idea of the master race. These beliefs had no basis in rational thought. They rejected both the rationality of capitalism and that of communism. |
The whole War on Terror is irrational, if you take it at face value. And five years down the track the best you can say was it was poorly concieved and incompetently managed. The world is a manifestly more dangerous place for the US than it was 5 years ago. They, and now Israel, for its own reasons, are on the political, military and moral back foot.
| Quote: |
3. Both varieties are imperialistic. The Nazis wanted to create an empire in the middle of Europe and had plans to eventually conquer North America and Africa. The Islamic fascists want to create a theocratic caliphate spanning the globe.
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Imperialistic, hey? Those evil Islamofascists! Good thing the US can't be accused of being imperialistic, or that criticism might ring a bit hollow!
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| 4. Both varieties practice censorship. The Nazis need no examples. The recent mass violence and intimidation practiced against the Danish cartoonists and their editiors who lampooned Islam provides a case in point. |
If you criticicise the govt you are encouraging terrorists, no, wait, you ARE a terrorist! Need I say more?
In conclusion: Islamofascist - dumb term. |
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Bulsajo

Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:57 pm Post subject: Re: Say,"Islamofacist?"You'd prob. get low TOEIC s |
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| R. S. Refugee wrote: |
I could be more blunt in my accessment of the intelligence level (negative numbers?) of people who use such ridiculous terms as 'Islamofacists', but then I'm afraid my old sparing partner, Bulsajo, wouldn't like my headline writing and wouldn't read the article and then where would I be? |
Nah, I'd probably be in agreement with you on that one. |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006 Location: The Road to Ithaca
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:16 pm Post subject: |
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| R. S. Refugee wrote: |
| daskalos wrote: |
Withdrawal noted and seconded. And I just aced several segments of a practice TOEIC.
And, withdrawal notwithstanding, Katha Pollit wrote that article, not Kate, but I guess your panties were in too much a twist to notice something like the writer's name. And in this case, if you wish to call me a pedant, you may also call me verifiably right. |
Or, perhaps verifiably half right, since it's Katha Pollitt. But I'm glad you pointed out the 'Kate' error anyway.
And congratulations on your TOEIC performance. |
You know, I could have sworn I checked that final t -- my bad. But congratulations for at long last verifying something. Dare we hope this could be the beginning of a new trend? |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006 Location: The Road to Ithaca
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Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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| deadman wrote: |
| In conclusion: Islamofascist - dumb term. |
Fine. Consider the hair to be split and the niggling distinction to have been made. Where do plan to spend your dime's worth of the difference?
An increasingly fascist US? You bet -- it's part of why I don't live there anymore. A fascist, imperial US, though, doesn't make me think any more highly of fundamentalist Muslims who advocate the destruction of the West. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:34 am Post subject: |
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There's a very good reason that some extremists are called Islamofascists. Islamofascists, also known as Islamists, are distinct from Muslims or regular adherents of Islam insofar as they are socially active in promoting an ideology that is as much political as religious in nature.
For the historical connections between the Muslim Brotherhood (Al Ikhwan Al Muslimun) and the Nazis, and the subsequent influence the Muslim Brotherhood on Al-Zawahiri, I suggest reading ATol's special Islamism, Fascism, and Terrorism by Mark Erikson. There are not even six degrees of seperation between Al Qaeda and Hitler, and the ideologies are frankly rather intertwined, although one could arguably suggest that Hitler's threat to the world was greater than all the Islamist forces in existence today are.
Here is a selection:
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al-Zawahiri joined the radical Islamist Muslim Brotherhood (al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun) as a young boy and was for the first time arrested in 1966 at age 15, when the secular government of President Gamal Abdel Nasser rounded up thousands of al-Ikhwan members and executed its top leaders in retribution for repeated assassination attempts on the president. One of those executed by hanging was chief ideologue Sayyid Qutb. Al-Zawahiri is Qutb's intellectual heir; he has further developed his message, and is putting it into practise.
But without Qutb, present-day Islamism as a noxious amalgam of fascist totalitarianism and extremes of Islamic fundamentalism would not exist. His principal "accomplishment" was to articulate the social and political practices of the Muslim Brotherhood from the 1930s through the 1950s - including collaboration with fascist regimes and organizations, involvement in anti-colonial, anti-Western and anti-Israeli actions, and the struggle for state power in Egypt - in demagogically persuasive fashion, buttressed by tendentious references to Islamic law and scriptures to deceive the faithful. Qutb, a one-time literary critic, was not a religious fundamentalist, but a Goebbels-style propagandist for a new totalitarianism to stand side-by-side with fascism and communism. |
RSR, I don't know what you are hoping to acheive by maligning those who use the term Islamofascists as idiots. This article is another anti-Bush rant that goes too far. The premise is that Bush has made up out of whole cloth the entire threat of radical Islam, whereas a more level and appropriate criticism of Bush is that he has responded to the threat unproportionally or incorrectly or with too much zeal and too little calculation. The idea that the neo-cons have invented a threat is false, although it might be more compelling to suggest that they are taking advantage of people's fears to advance their own political agendas. |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003 Location: seoul
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Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:38 am Post subject: |
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I could be more blunt in my accessment of the intelligence level (negative numbers?) of people who use such ridiculous terms as 'Islamofacists', but then I'm afraid my old sparing partner, Bulsajo, wouldn't like my headline writing and wouldn't read the article and then where would I be?
And, of course, I could be wrong. After all, our Dear Leader used the term recently and we all know he's something of an intellectual icon. Right?
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spell like that and your toeic score wouldn't be much better. |
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R. S. Refugee

Joined: 29 Sep 2004 Location: Shangra La, ROK
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Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| sundubuman wrote: |
I could be more blunt in my accessment of the intelligence level (negative numbers?) of people who use such ridiculous terms as 'Islamofacists', but then I'm afraid my old sparing partner, Bulsajo, wouldn't like my headline writing and wouldn't read the article and then where would I be?
And, of course, I could be wrong. After all, our Dear Leader used the term recently and we all know he's something of an intellectual icon. Right?
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spell like that and your toeic score wouldn't be much better. |
Thanks for the proofreading. Now I know it's "assessment" and "sparring." Good to know. |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003 Location: seoul
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Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:55 am Post subject: |
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although on second thought, you may have discovered a useful new word, inadvertently of course.
The new school has plenty of accessment.
Easy access and easily accessed may have a competitor. |
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chotaerang
Joined: 23 Mar 2004 Location: In the gym
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Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 4:56 am Post subject: |
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| Are you equally offended when the United States or Israel are described as facist? |
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