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| Which is Ideal? |
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| Total Votes : 25 |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:33 am Post subject: |
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Summer Wine wrote:
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happeningthang wrote:
Buddhism.
That would be the best, without a doubt.
I read a book written in the 1800's by a person who had lived and moved in the area's of nepal and tibet and the one point I got from his written experiences was that buddists have commited just as much death when they are in power as others have.
So buddhists would not be the best unless you like being sewen into a wet yaks stomach and then pierced with red hot pokers as it dried slowly around you and as it crushed your bones. Oh, but if you liked it then "yes " they are the best.
Sure, but I get the impression these are single instances, rather than examples of large scale, institutionalised violence.
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Does the Japanese war machine, circa the 1930s 1940s, count as institutionalized violence?
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Victoria�s book Zen at War is meticulously researched and, as far as I have been able to tell, there have been no scholarly disputes about the accuracy of either the information he presents or the conclusions he reaches.
This does not mean, however, that everyone is happy with his research. It appears that many Zen masters would have preferred that Victoria keep quiet about what he discovered � they would prefer, it seems, that the truth remain hidden if the truth portrays Zen Buddhism in a negative light.
Victoria relies extensively on the writings of Japanese Zen Masters between 1868 and 1945. He shows how they transformed Buddhist messages of compassion and selflessness into doctrines that war was a manifestation of compassion (members of �lower� cultures deserve to die if they don�t submit to more �enlightened� cultures like in Japan) and true selflessness means unquestioning obedience to the state.
It�s understandable that things might reach this point. During the mid-nineteenth century, Buddhism was being repressed and Buddhist leaders felt that their only hope of survival was to align themselves more closely with the state. By becoming more nationalistic than the nationalists, they became part of the system � and paved the way for horrific acts less than a century later.
Particularly disturbing to readers familiar with Buddhism will be the complicity of some of the most important Zen Buddhists from the past century. Apologists for war weren�t fringe priests, but some of the biggest names of Japanese Buddhism � including, for example, D.T. Suzuki, a famous Zen scholar whose works have been widely translated and studied. Victoria finds that Suzuki laid out many of the basic principles that would be used by Buddhist leaders right up to Japan�s defeat:
�(1) Japan has the right to pursue its commercial and trade ambitions as it sees fit; (2) should �unruly heathens� (jama gedo) of any country interfere with that right, they deserve to be punished for interfering with the progress of all humanity; (3) such punishment will be carried out with the full and unconditional support of Japan�s religions, for it is undertaken with no other goal in mind than to ensure that justice prevails; (4) soldiers must, without the slightest hesitation or regret, offer up their lives to the state in carrying out such religion-sanctioned punishment; and (5) discharging one�s duty to the state on the battlefield is a religious act.�
Zen at War, by Brian VictoriaIt�s not that no Buddhists spoke out against any of this, but very few did and not much evidence of their actions survives. Had more of them organized against the war, things might have proceeded very differently. In fact, there is little evidence of regret even after the war. Japan�s largest Protestant group issued an apology in 1967; the first Buddhist admission of complicity didn�t appear until 1987. At the writing of Victoria�s book, only four Buddhist statements about the war had been issued and most leading sects remain silent.
Even worse is that there has been no repudiation or reform of the ideas that led to all of the problems in the first place. The ideology has been transferred from the state to the corporation. Zen Buddhist teach that selfless devotion to the goals of a company is itself a form of enlightenment. The Imperial Zen Soldier has become the Corporate Zen Salaryman.
Brian Victoria�s book is a fascinating account of how religion can be manipulated into serving the violent ambitions of governments and politicians. If Buddhism can provide the ideological underpinnings of militarism and imperialism, any religion probably can. Both believers and non-believers need to better understand how this can occur.
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http://atheism.about.com/od/bookreviews/fr/ZenAtWar.htm |
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in_seoul_2003
Joined: 24 Nov 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:46 am Post subject: |
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Last edited by in_seoul_2003 on Wed Aug 29, 2007 7:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 7:45 am Post subject: |
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| what are ya some sort of meshuganah schmuck? make a choice and deal with it. |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Mitch Comestein wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
| Buddhism. |
That would be the best, without a doubt. |
Bhutan anyone? Be careful what you wish for. |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
Sure, but I get the impression these are single instances, rather than examples of large scale, institutionalised violence.
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Does the Japanese war machine, circa the 1930s 1940s, count as institutionalized violence?
http://atheism.about.com/od/bookreviews/fr/ZenAtWar.htm[/quote]
Those dirty stinkin' zen monks!!! 
I did not know that, but again can't say I'm surprised either. Any big religion that hangs around for long enough must have done something, somewhere.
This is nit-picking I know, but at least in this instance the violence wasn't inspired by the religion. The review said the zen buddhists were aligning themselves with the government of the day in an effort to prevent the sect dying out.
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During the mid-nineteenth century, Buddhism was being repressed and Buddhist leaders felt that their only hope of survival was to align themselves more closely with the state. By becoming more nationalistic than the nationalists, they became part of the system � and paved the way for horrific acts less than a century later.
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So they're guilty of complicity and providing comfort to institutional violence, not preaching and practicing it. Morally just as bad.
Still...
http://www.rantradio.com/shows/sktfm/pics/photoshop/show036/conviction-tknight.jpg
Last edited by happeningthang on Sat Sep 02, 2006 4:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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happeningthang
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Mitch Comestein wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
| Buddhism. |
That would be the best, without a doubt. |
Bhutan anyone? Be careful what you wish for. |
Why? What's wrong with Bhutan?? |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Sundubuman:
That link you posted above is causing some major sidescroll, which makes it rather cumbersome to read this interesting thread you started. Maybe give some thought to a tinyurl? |
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bignate
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Location: Hell's Ditch
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| Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:05 am Post subject: |
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| sundubuman wrote: |
maybe one way to think of it....
Imagine if you had to move to Planet A,B, or C.... each one overwhelmingly Christian, Islamic or Jewish....
Where would you choose to live? oh....and why? |
I don't think that it would really matter would it, I mean if there was an overwhelmingly dominant religion, the resulting conflicts would not be evident, and thus very little oppression to speak of....
All three believe in the same God, all three have their convictions, all three have been cruel and opressive, and oppressed in their own right... |
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red dog
Joined: 31 Oct 2004
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:47 am Post subject: |
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| OTOH made a great argument, but the OP shouldn't have left out Buddhism and Jainism. I'm not a follower of either one, but I suspect that the world would be beter off if one of these was the predominant religion. A Jain planet would probably be the best. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:03 am Post subject: |
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| We're missing Sufi too. "Islam" by itself doesn't really mean much if we're considering that it could be something akin to Sufism, or on the other side, Wahhabism (blech). Same thing for Christianity - Greek Orthodox would be cool, US-style end of times protestantism would be pretty gay. |
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 2:29 am Post subject: |
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No one has pointed out what would happen if we did have an atheist planet. According to some counts, communism and Nazi fascism, both atheistic doctrines, have been responsible for more deaths than in the previous nineteen centuries combined. So it looks like no planet, whether it's staffed by believers of a certain sect or of no sect at all, will be totally without crime, murder, and fanaticism.
Thus what we need is a planet with no humans on it.
(Alternative: A planet with me and Tyra Banks. There'll be no murder, honest. But if you give me Paris Hilton, there might be a teensy bit of murder, especially if she sings.)
Ken:> |
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huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| happeningthang wrote: |
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| Mitch Comestein wrote: |
| happeningthang wrote: |
| Buddhism. |
That would be the best, without a doubt. |
Bhutan anyone? Be careful what you wish for. |
Why? What's wrong with Bhutan?? |
No smoking!!
Not to mention very restrictive tourism rules. And no TV or internet until 1999. |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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Vaishnava "Hindu" planets - no need to make a special category because they already speak Sanskrit on all the higher planets ...
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tiger fancini
Joined: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Testicles for Eyes
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