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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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 Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| Milwaukiedave wrote: |
Actually there are quite a few western woman on this forum married to a Korean man. It's becoming a lot more common (and to some extent it is more accepted by Koreans then the reverse).
However, the majority of Korean/foreigner marriages are between a Korean woman and foreign man. I married a Korean woman earlier this year and her family is very accepting of me. |
I beg to differ. The majority of international marriages in Korea involve Korean men living in rural areas marrying South East Asian women. |
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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:12 am Post subject: |
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You're going to get a lot of PC platitudes around here. The only safe place on this issue involves your ass firmly planted on the fence. Tonight you may call me Super Dave, mommy.
Here's what I think. Everywhere you go, women are looking for men of higher status. They want men who are taller, richer, and of higher social standing. They want an Alpha male, but wil settle for a handfull of attractive features. On an elemental, subconcious level, I think most people get this. That's why there's a market for rural Korean men going out and purchasing brides from poorer countries. The women are getting a step up on the ladder and the men get a mate.
I think that Korean-confucian culture works against young Korean men trying to get laid. Young Korean men have little personal power. They don't have control over the major decisions in their life. School, army, work. That's it. They are the Beta males. I think that sort of powerlesness translates in how they act around women. Bowing and scrapping, waiting for sex, being passive aggresive, tolerating unnescesary drama. I think the average western woman just isn't interested in that sort of behaviour.
The Alphas in Korea are middle aged men. They have cornered a disproportionate share of the sexual marketplace. A wife, a girlfriend, hookers when out with the boys. Then they get the final say on who their daughters marry, controlling an even greater share of female sexuality.
Lately I've been feeling a lot of empathy for younger Korean men. I think Korean women's traditional sex roles are breaking down. I hope the men keep pace, but I doubt it. [/quote] |
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The Chewbacca Defense
Joined: 29 May 2004
Location: The ROK and a hard place
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:14 am Post subject: ... |
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| I know I am!!!! |
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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:22 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| The Chewbacca Defense wrote: |
| I know I am!!!! |
"I am" what, Chewy? If it's curious, I've got your curiousity right here in my pants.
Go back to your Semantics books you big girl. And clean my pool.
See ladies, that is an alpha male in action. Try to contain your fine selves. |
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The Chewbacca Defense
Joined: 29 May 2004
Location: The ROK and a hard place
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:35 am Post subject: ... |
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| sigh.....sad but true. Doing what I can for you King of Pants. |
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EFLtrainer
Joined: 04 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:27 am Post subject: |
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May I state teh non-Pc, yet obvious?
Why would a naturally independent-minded Western woman marry a typically traditional Korean guy? So she can kiss what personal freedom and equality she does have goodbye?
It's a numbers game. How many truly open-minded Korean men do you know? I mean guys who will not let their parents decide major issues? Who will treat their wives as full partners?
It's still not a fully done thing in Western countires... Korea? Lordy...
Yet, why would't some Korean women want a more equal marriage, etc., etc.? |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Hollywoodaction wrote: |
| Milwaukiedave wrote: |
Actually there are quite a few western woman on this forum married to a Korean man. It's becoming a lot more common (and to some extent it is more accepted by Koreans then the reverse).
However, the majority of Korean/foreigner marriages are between a Korean woman and foreign man. I married a Korean woman earlier this year and her family is very accepting of me. |
I beg to differ. The majority of international marriages in Korea involve Korean men living in rural areas marrying South East Asian women. |
Actually I was referring specifically about the foreigner being a native speaking English teacher. I guess I should have been more specific on that one. |
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anae
Joined: 13 May 2003
Location: cowtown
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:00 am Post subject: |
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| I never had any problems finding dates in Korea. I found there was a pretty healthy selection of both expat and Korean men at least back in the dark ages of the 1990s. The Korean men that approached me generally spoke fairly good English and had travelled or lived abroad. The ones I dated all had very flexible ideas about relationships and women's roles. |
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JongnoGuru
Joined: 25 May 2004
Location: peeing on your doorstep
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
May I state teh non-Pc, yet obvious?
Why would a naturally independent-minded Western woman marry a typically traditional Korean guy? So she can kiss what personal freedom and equality she does have goodbye?
It's a numbers game. How many truly open-minded Korean men do you know? I mean guys who will not let their parents decide major issues? Who will treat their wives as full partners?
It's still not a fully done thing in Western countires... Korea? Lordy...
Yet, why would't some Korean women want a more equal marriage, etc., etc.? |
There are many Western women and Korean men who don't fit the mould you're describing, plus you've got to allow for love that will blossom between people in spite of what looks illogical and irrational to you or me.
You talk about a numbers game and ask how many Korean men we know who are truly open-minded, will treat their wives as full partners, etc. I personally couldn't say. Maybe you're right, maybe there are not so many of those. But then I haven't actually noticed a stampede of Western women looking to marry Korean men either, so there may well be sufficient supply to meet a rather modest demand, yes? |
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Samantha
Joined: 20 Jul 2006
Location: Jinan-dong Hwaseong
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:53 am Post subject: |
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| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
| Here's what I think. Everywhere you go, women are looking for men of higher status. They want men who are taller, richer, and of higher social standing. They want an Alpha male, but wil settle for a handfull of attractive features. On an elemental, subconcious level, I think most people get this. That's why there's a market for rural Korean men going out and purchasing brides from poorer countries. The women are getting a step up on the ladder and the men get a mate. |
This seems to make sense. A lot of women are typically taught that they need to find someone who will make a good husband, a good father, a good provider and who will treat them well. Then on top of all this programming women get the personal tastes-height requirements, age requirements, education, personality, interests etc etc etc. I'm not sure how it all works together anymore but yeah that's one theory as well.
| Paji eh Wong wrote: |
| I think that Korean-confucian culture works against young Korean men trying to get laid. Young Korean men have little personal power. They don't have control over the major decisions in their life. School, army, work. That's it. They are the Beta males. I think that sort of powerlesness translates in how they act around women. Bowing and scrapping, waiting for sex, being passive aggresive, tolerating unnescesary drama. I think the average western woman just isn't interested in that sort of behaviour. |
I had noticed this as well it wasn't a very big turn-on....that's why I was curious about if there were a relatively equal population of Foreign women/Korean men relationships. I wonder now what nationality is higher of foreigners with Korean men. I mean is it more geared towards N. European women, Australian and New Zelander women, or Canadian and American women.
| EFLtrainer wrote: |
May I state teh non-Pc, yet obvious?
Why would a naturally independent-minded Western woman marry a typically traditional Korean guy? So she can kiss what personal freedom and equality she does have goodbye?
It's a numbers game. How many truly open-minded Korean men do you know? I mean guys who will not let their parents decide major issues? Who will treat their wives as full partners? |
Again this is something that I had thought of. I want the equal relationship and have a very hard time bowing to someone elses demands 24/7. I am an alpha personality, it's what makes me-- me. So to start a relationship with someone who probably doesn't see women as even possibly being an alpha would not be a good thing. I wonder if the foreign women dating Korean men see themselves as alphas? And if they do how do they come to terms with it? Did they marry Betas? (And before someone starts fussing at me-Yes I do know that not everyone thinks of people in terms of alpha and betas, and that this does not have anything to do with sexual dominance it's a personality/worldview.)
| billybrobby wrote: |
| I see a lot of expat/expat couples. Yeah, there's a lot of dudes dating Korean girls, but not to the point where dating foreign girls is anything like a rarity. |
See where I was originally, and where I would go for shopping etc it almost was a rarity. That's what got me thinking about it.
| billybrobby wrote: |
| There are some expat women married to Korean men on this board. |
I have seen the pictures up on here tzechuk's daughter and the one or two others, but it seemed very disproportionate. There appears to be a very small handful of expat women with Korean men.
| billybrobby wrote: |
| One is that Koreans come off as feminine according to the western standard of femininity. Physically they're smaller, they're not furry, they've got nice hair. Culturally, they often act very shy and coy when interacting with opposite sex and when interacting with foreigners. All of this can seem charming to a westerner in a woman but kind of lame in a man. I know this all sounds very chauvinist but I'm talking about people's perceptions. Also, Korea is still a very male-dominated society and it has produced a model of femininity that resonates with westerners while it has not produced a model of masculinity that similarly resonates. Korea doesn't have the American cowboy aggressive sort of masculinity. It's a more staid, more hardworking and ambitious model. Korean females, however, are in a general way very appearance oriented and act very cutesy and that somehow appeals to both Korean and western men. Anyways, that's my grand theory. Probably next month I'll have a different one. |
Again I hadn't thought of it this way. So are you saying that Expat women aren't coy and feminine? And the "staid, hardworking and ambitious model" can usually go a lot further and last a lot longer than the "cowboy aggressive sort of masculinity". The last one is usually more exciting and good for a quick romp excitement factor, but the one you can actually count on to be there for the long haul and help support you later is the first one.
| Swiss James wrote: |
| Corporal wrote: |
| JongnoGuru wrote: |
| C'mon, she's still new here. |
What's billybrobby's excuse then? |
"She told me she was 19" |
Yes I am new to the boards and to the larger expat community, the last time I was in Korea teaching I pretty much was holed up in my little town and isolated from just about everyone. The only time I saw foreigners really were on my monthly trips to Seoul. And Swiss James were you referring to me being 19? Or was that one of those sarcastic things?...I'm 27 if it matters. |
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doggyji
Joined: 21 Feb 2006
Location: Toronto - Hamilton - Vineland - St. Catherines
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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Interesting points by billybrobby and Paji eh Wong. A few days ago, I went to my 선배's wedding. He got married to a nice Canada-born Korean lady who speaks Korean very well. They have been friends for nine years. This whole thing got me thinking. I'm not desperate at all but sometimes when I think about my future mate, I fantasize about going back to Korea where every woman I see everyday everywhere is the same korean who speaks Korean. I just miss the vibe.  Whenever I personally get to know an attractive Korean girl on a rare occasion, why does she always have a bf already..ha ha.. Guess the dating scene here is a bit small. Maybe it's because I don't go to Korean church. I dunno. Oh I sound a bit lame here he he. Just being honest.  |
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Hollywoodaction
Joined: 02 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| doggyji wrote: |
| Interesting points by billybrobby and Paji eh Wong. A few days ago, I went to my 선배's wedding. He got married to a nice Canada-born Korean lady who speaks Korean very well. They have been friends for nine years. This whole thing got me thinking. I'm not desperate at all but sometimes when I think about my future mate, I fantasize about going back to Korea where every woman I see everyday everywhere is the same korean who speaks Korean. I just miss the vibe. Whenever I personally get to know an attractive Korean girl on a rare occasion, why does she always have a bf already..ha ha.. Guess the dating scene here is a bit small. Maybe it's because I don't go to Korean church. I dunno. Oh I sound a bit lame here he he. Just being honest. |
Thanks for your comment, doggyji. It made me think about why people are attracted to a certain type of people, and your comment made me realize that, in the end, people are attracted to people who are familiar and comfortable or exotic. For you (Korean-Canadian, right?), I guess you could say that Korean women are both familiar and exotic. |
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Paji eh Wong
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| EFLtrainer wrote: |
May I state teh non-Pc, yet obvious?
Why would a naturally independent-minded Western woman marry a typically traditional Korean guy? So she can kiss what personal freedom and equality she does have goodbye?
It's a numbers game. How many truly open-minded Korean men do you know? I mean guys who will not let their parents decide major issues? Who will treat their wives as full partners?
It's still not a fully done thing in Western countires... Korea? Lordy...
Yet, why would't some Korean women want a more equal marriage, etc., etc.? |
This is, in essence, what I'm saying. Men's insecurity and lack of personal power lead to all kinds of bad behaviour on their part. I think women are pretty good at detecting and avoiding this, when they have choices.
I was out with this lovely Korean girl the other day who had just come back from living in Europe. She said it was so simple and easy to date foriegners that she can never go back to dating Korean men again. I'm not saying this to be hurtful. I think it sucks for everyone. It would benefit everyone, men and women, if Korean men got their game together and gave themselves some more choices. |
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billybrobby
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Samantha wrote: |
| billybrobby wrote: |
| One is that Koreans come off as feminine according to the western standard of femininity. Physically they're smaller, they're not furry, they've got nice hair. Culturally, they often act very shy and coy when interacting with opposite sex and when interacting with foreigners. All of this can seem charming to a westerner in a woman but kind of lame in a man. I know this all sounds very chauvinist but I'm talking about people's perceptions. Also, Korea is still a very male-dominated society and it has produced a model of femininity that resonates with westerners while it has not produced a model of masculinity that similarly resonates. Korea doesn't have the American cowboy aggressive sort of masculinity. It's a more staid, more hardworking and ambitious model. Korean females, however, are in a general way very appearance oriented and act very cutesy and that somehow appeals to both Korean and western men. Anyways, that's my grand theory. Probably next month I'll have a different one. |
Again I hadn't thought of it this way. So are you saying that Expat women aren't coy and feminine? And the "staid, hardworking and ambitious model" can usually go a lot further and last a lot longer than the "cowboy aggressive sort of masculinity". The last one is usually more exciting and good for a quick romp excitement factor, but the one you can actually count on to be there for the long haul and help support you later is the first one.
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Nah, expat women are plenty coy and feminine, and that's why there are plenty of expat/expat relationships. I think you're still working under the assumption that there aren't.
paji-eh wong and EFLtrainer both brought up interesting points that I hadn't thought of. I think EFLtrainer's point dovetails with mine. In any society's conception of masculinity there is a conception of how a man ought to treat a woman. And I don't know if Korean society encourages men to treat women in a way that is appealing to western women. I should say that I don't take the dim view that all Korean men are 1950s style chauvinist wife-beaters. But this is a more male-dominated society than the west. Mainly, it's just that there's a different kind of interaction going on between the sexes here and I don't know if it translates well to a western perspective.
Also, I think I've been rather prejudiced in focusing on why western women may be less attracted to the way Korean men act. It's really a two way street. I think the western conception of femininity is less attractive to the Korean male than the Korean concept. Although here we're really getting into thorny territory because it's even harder for me to speak for a Korean male than it is for me to speak for a western female (maybe I shouldn't be doing either).
I dunno, when I reread this post that I'm writing now it all sounds very pretentious, but it's kinda hard to discuss this issue. It's hard to put away all the bias and prejudice and look at things fairly. All I know is there is this huge discrepancy between the number of kman/wlady and wman/klady relationships. It's like a big pink elephant in the room. I mean, when you go to an expat party or gathering it almost always breaks down like this: There are 10 white guys, 6 korean girls (3 of which are girlfriends of the white guys), 8 white girls, and 1 korean guy. Maybe the kguys and wladies just have to start picking up the slack and gettin' it on! |
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billybrobby
Joined: 09 Dec 2004
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| Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| PS -- Swiss James' comment about being 19 years old can be explained by the fact that Swiss James is a huge drunk who frequently posts non-sequiters. |
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