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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:00 am Post subject: FBI agents good at Spanish |
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Yay!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/10/AR2006101001388.html
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Five years after Arab terrorists attacked the United States, only 33 FBI agents have even a limited proficiency in Arabic, and none of them work in the sections of the bureau that coordinate investigations of international terrorism, according to new FBI statistics.
Counting agents who know only a handful of Arabic words -- including those who scored zero on a standard proficiency test -- just 1 percent of the FBI's 12,000 agents have any familiarity with the language, the statistics show. |
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More than 1,400 agents have at least a limited working proficiency in a foreign language, including nearly 900 who speak Spanish. Other languages include Russian, Farsi, Vietnamese, Japanese, Korean, Mandarin and Cantonese, the FBI said.
Gulotta and other officials said several factors limit the number of foreign speakers who can become agents at the FBI. Special agents, for example, must be U.S. citizens. They also must undergo background checks that are much more difficult to pass if the candidate has relatives or friends overseas.
"It is easier to get a security clearance if you don't have any interaction with foreigners, which is not what you want if you want better interaction with foreigners," Byman said.
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Youssef's attorney, Stephen M. Kohn, said the statistics indicate that most FBI agents have no way to gauge the accuracy of translated materials and must rely on linguists or other third parties for their information.
"How do you fight a war with that kind of disadvantage?" Kohn asked.
Gulotta and other experts note that the FBI is not alone in its struggle to attract qualified job candidates who speak Arabic or other foreign languages.
A study released last week, for example, found that three terrorists housed at a federal prison in Colorado were able to send more than 90 letters to fellow extremists overseas, in part because the prison did not have enough qualified language translators to understand what was happening. |
In the meantime, here's the story of an Arabic translator discharged from the army for being gay:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGqz8Qh3ftY
Er...suggestions? I don't want to just be negative in the op but considering how too many interactions with foreigners can prevent a person from getting a security clearance I'm not sure what be done besides trying to force agents already in to learn Arabic. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:45 am Post subject: |
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| well my fbi application experience was frustrating enough that i don't plan to ever do it again. |
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Hater Depot
Joined: 29 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| well my fbi application experience was frustrating enough that i don't plan to ever do it again. |
What made it so terrible? I've considered trying to join as Korean is oen of their "priority" languages... |
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John Henry
Joined: 24 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Send them to Arabic hogwon. |
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some waygug-in
Joined: 25 Jan 2003
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| Er...suggestions? I don't want to just be negative... |
How about just thorough?
How about taking a look at what is going on all around, including "liaison" with friendly foreign intelligence services like, for example, the Pakistanis and the Israelis, rather than just one U.S. agency?
Did you look at foreign language expertise at the National Security Agency, CIA, or DIA, for example? And, moreoever, did you know that FBI is using "investigators" now to supplement "agents" and "special agents"? Did it occur to you that they might also be contracting translators when needed? Have you checked on this?
I am not saying I know all of these answers. But do you? Do you think that it is important in such an OP as you have raised (and its implications) to deal with such questions, particularly before concluding "Yay!"? |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
| Er...suggestions? I don't want to just be negative... |
How about just thorough?
How about taking a look at what is going on all around, including "liaison" with friendly foreign intelligence services like, for example, the Pakistanis and the Israelis, rather than just one U.S. agency?
Did you look at foreign language expertise at the National Security Agency, CIA, or DIA, for example? And, moreoever, did you know that FBI is using "investigators" now to supplement "agents" and "special agents"? Did it occur to you that they might also be contracting translators when needed? Have you checked on this?
I am not saying I know all of these answers. But do you? Do you think that it is important in such an OP as you have raised (and its implications) to deal with such questions, particularly before concluding "Yay!"? |
I meant suggestions to help the FBI in increasing its foreign language ability / getting security clearances for people in spite of having numerous foreign contacts, etc. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
| I meant suggestions to help the FBI in increasing its foreign language ability / getting security clearances for people in spite of having numerous foreign contacts, etc. |
Most govts are suspicious of people who have spent much time abroad or have had many foreign contacts.
The U.S. has especially been burned on this and related issues several times, starting at least as early as Jonathan Pollard.
Washington has decided to err on the side of caution. It is an imperfect and unfair solution. But I would not presume to second-guess unless I had a fail-safe alternative to suggest... |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Hater Depot wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| well my fbi application experience was frustrating enough that i don't plan to ever do it again. |
What made it so terrible? I've considered trying to join as Korean is oen of their "priority" languages... |
sending in your application, told they're working on it every couple months, waiting for new money from the budget, etc etc, then finally being told, "we've changed the parameters of the job, please re-apply." Not exactly fun.
Now if they hadn't asked an essay-length question plus a few other questions that required some thought, it would not have been that bad. Instead, after I put in a fair amount of effort, it was aggrevating for them to just say "re-apply." |
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Delirium's Brother
Joined: 08 May 2006
Location: Out in that field with Rumi, waiting for you to join us!
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| mithridates wrote: |
| I meant suggestions to help the FBI in increasing its foreign language ability / getting security clearances for people in spite of having numerous foreign contacts, etc. |
Most govts are suspicious of people who have spent much time abroad or have had many foreign contacts.
The U.S. has especially been burned on this and related issues several times, starting at least as early as Jonathan Pollard.
Washington has decided to err on the side of caution. It is an imperfect and unfair solution. But I would not presume to second-guess unless I had a fail-safe alternative to suggest... |
This is not an `unfair' situation, it is a ridiculous situation.
- how are you really going to learn a foreign language without foreign contacts or living abroad?
- why isn't foreign language ability a minimum absolute requirement for hiring of investigators/agents/operators at crucial government intelligence agencies?
- why are so few existing agents, etc. being re-trained in foreign languages?
As one responder said, it's difficult to judge the FBI without the full details of what they are doing for stop-gap measures; but on the face of it; it's hard to take the rhetoric about the efforts being made in `War on Terror' seriously, when details like this come to light. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Delirium's Brother wrote: |
This is not an `unfair' situation, it is a ridiculous situation.
- how are you really going to learn a foreign language without foreign contacts or living abroad?
- why isn't foreign language ability a minimum absolute requirement for hiring of investigators/agents/operators at crucial government intelligence agencies?
- why are so few existing agents, etc. being re-trained in foreign languages?
As one responder said, it's difficult to judge the FBI without the full details of what they are doing for stop-gap measures; but on the face of it; it's hard to take the rhetoric about the efforts being made in `War on Terror' seriously, when details like this come to light. |
These are excellent questions. I would point out that the govt does indeed offer incentives, like higher salaries and bonuses for employees/officers who pass foreign language exams or acquire new foreign languages.
And it is not an absolute prohibition of having foreign contacts or living abroad, just the last ten years of your life -- that is, the majority of that time must have been spent in the U.S. and if you have had foreign contacts you should be able to explain all of them.
As far as whether it is gone about fairly, humanely, or as you say "ridiculously," I can only repeat an expression I heard somewhere: never underestimate the bureaucratic mindset. |
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Delirium's Brother
Joined: 08 May 2006
Location: Out in that field with Rumi, waiting for you to join us!
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| These are excellent questions. I would point out that the govt does indeed offer incentives, like higher salaries and bonuses for employees/officers who pass foreign language exams or acquire new foreign languages. |
The problem with incentives is that they are designed to coax people towards a desired goal. The carrot is fine, but it's time to get out the stick. I think the situation warrants it, don't you? Six to eight months of eight hour a day language training plus a four to six month posting overseas with a delegation or consulate. Pass somekind of minimum culture and language profficiency test or pack your bags. Rotate agents through the program until everyone is trained. The world has changed, their job function has changed, they better be able to produce in the new circumstances or they are of no use to you. If they have supperlative or exceptional skills or experience that are needed by the agency then they can have a pass, but if they are the run-of-the-mill agent; either get with the program of get out. I know this sounds cold, but it's not like their jobs are insignificant to the country either. They give them extensive training about the law and how to investigate and how to uses a gun, but they don't train them to understand intercepted bad-guy communications easily? Hmm.
| Gopher wrote: |
| And it is not an absolute prohibition of having foreign contacts or living abroad, just the last ten years of your life -- that is, the majority of that time must have been spent in the U.S. and if you have had foreign contacts you should be able to explain all of them. |
There is a catch 22 here. IIRC the FBI has maximum age limits for new hires. So finishing your BA by 22 spending a couple years learning a language and experiencing a culture overseas, and then being back in the US for 10 years; seems pretty impossible. And that doesn't even include law school, which many agents do. It seems the system is designed not to achieve its goals. (maybe I have the facts wrong, but I don't think so). And sure you have to explain your foreign contacts, but that should go without saying.
| Gopher wrote: |
| As far as whether it is gone about fairly, humanely, or as you say "ridiculously," I can only repeat an expression I heard somewhere: never underestimate the bureaucratic mindset. |
There in lies the problem.
Listen friend, I'm a Canadian. So what goes on at the FBI is really none of my business. It's just when I see a situation like this, where peoples lives are at stake, sometimes I can't help myself but respond. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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deleted
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Delirium's Brother
Joined: 08 May 2006
Location: Out in that field with Rumi, waiting for you to join us!
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:05 am Post subject: |
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Everything you said above, I agree with except this part:
| Gopher wrote: |
| I guess this makes sense if you are talking about KGB agents in Stalinist Russia, where you can force change and treat people like that and get away with it... |
Putting the hyperbole aside for a minute. Let me say that I should have clarified that I was speaking specifically about the counter-terrorism section of the bureau. Thus in the broadest terms we are talking about a defense agency, whose agents have to be the best that the agency can put in the field for the sake of your country's well-being. If human reluctance to change is a factor, then someone has to go individual by individual and ask them whether they have what it takes to meet the changing demands of the job and serve their country. It's not about force, it's about saying, `this is what we need, can you do it? If you can't or won't then we need to find someone who can and will.' It's fine to say that you are capable, but I think the real test is in the actions that follow any kind of declaration like that. You would expect the same from anyone in uniform, I think. Actually that last bit was more of a question I guess. Maybe this isn't a fair comparison.
Yes they are humans with all the frailties that go with that, but you're not asking them to teach in a hagwon, you're asking them to participate in the defense of your country. That calls for a special type of person who will go above and beyond.
I don't know, maybe I'm just being too impatient. Or maybe I have some glorified notion about what service in one of these agencies means. Maybe I live in a fantasy world. And maybe there are already rigorous programs to get the language factor covered that you and I don't know about. Honestly, I don't know that much about the FBI service, except what I've gleaned from pop culture.
And as a side note, normally I'm all about the peace and love. This whole discussion has brought out something unsettling in me. I think this touched a nerve. I guess its just the fear of seeing more innocent people die because of lack of preparedness and inter-agency miscommunication that has brought out the `authoritarian' problem-solver in me. I just don't want to see innocent people die like that ever again. |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 2:45 am Post subject: |
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As I've heard the story told, a number of years ago, the linguist Stephen Krashen got a phone call in his office at USC. It was from the folks at the CIA, who wanted to know if, as a specialist in second language acquisition, he could help them with the problem they had training adequate numbers of speakers of language X for their needs. They couldn't get enough people trained fast enough to deal with the intelligence gathered in that language. What could they do to accelerate the learning process and achieve higher levels of proficiency faster?
Krashen's response: Support bilingual education!
He was quite serious and correct. COnsider the language you are concerned with here, Arabic. There are lots of Arabic speakers entering the American educational system at early ages. But very few of them are graduating as effective bilinguals because the opposition to bilingual education has so effectively limited support for programs that help immigrant children maintain and effectively develop higher order skills in their first languages.
Yeah, we could be doing so much better in this regard. |
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