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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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 Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:22 am Post subject: yes |
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Sure, there are a few things we could do to make life easier for immigrants, but the better question is, why should we?
We've done enough, we have done more than most countries in the world, and definitely more than the minimum required.
I guess it is a Korean's God given right to go to another country and earn more money than the average person. We ought to roll out the red carpet for them at the airport.
My fiance and I travelled to Canada in the summer. She was given great treatment, not a single bad incident. She sees what I go through living here, but somehow can't empathize. Must be in the blood. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:46 am Post subject: Re: Rude awakening for Koreans vis a vis Canada |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| A Chinese male with with an advanced education would be a high status male in China. He comes to Canada, he has to prove himself. Simple as that. It's probably a bit of a shock to a man who has enjoyed open doors and status based solely on his sex and education. |
This is funny because I was just talking about this to two Korean friends this weekend. One was saying how no matter how highly qualified you are you are nothing in western countries (not just Canada) which does seem a bitter pill to swallow: years of study and experience to be a doctor or engineer only to find that your qualifications mean nothing and you have to be a shelf-stacker in a supermarket?
The other conversation I had was with someone who said the pressure on Korean men to succeed and bear responsibility is still much greater than on women in society; and this also accounts for the higher rates of suicide among men in Asia generally than in the West, where pressure is not as intense. So Asian men will commit suicide if they face failure no matter where they are and obviously success is going to seem even more difficult in a country that refuses to recognize your qualifications.
I don't think this has anything to do with how 'friendly' people in general are to immigrants or with their co-workers; but it's about how 'foreigner friendly' a country is in terms of recognizing immigrant qualifications. There are obviously problems involved for the host nation in assessing foreign country degrees but that makes me wonder how this works when foreigners apply for immigration. For Brits immigrating to Canada, for example, there's a points system and level of education and experience is definitely worth something: does that not happen with Asians?
Anyway, no matter how good the reasons for the situation might be it's still tough on highly qualified immigrants. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| I think that such comparisons as you seek miss the fundamental point, however. It is not easy to immigrate and live an immigrant's life anywhere in the world -- and neither the U.S. nor Canada are unique here, even if immigrants are more welcome and tend to fare better in either of these two countries than anywhere else outside of a very few West European states. |
I think that is a very good point and can't be said enough.
The Op (mindmetoo) hit all the major points regarding cultural dislocation and the immigrant experience. It just isn't easy, no matter where. I taught in LINC (Language Instruction for Newcomers to Canada) for years in Toronto and would have classes full of immigrants, some just hours off the plane (so anxious to get a pay check and get started). Such a frustrating experience for them even given Canada's generosity on many levels (besides the quagmire of accreditation and the rampant protectionism of many trades/professions).
Fact is -- most, if not all, were sacrificing their lives for the sake of the next generation. Most wanted to make it and then retire HOME. Immigrants seldom WANT to immigrate and live permanently in another country. This holds for all kinds of immigrants, from refugees to Phds.
So I think Gopher's point about immigration being a very difficult experience is one we should consider when labeling immigrants as "lazy" , "welfare bums", " leeches" , "not wanting to assimilate". They are just up against so much and these charges are without any reality. Simply not who 99% of immigrants are.
DD |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: yes |
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| Ilsanman wrote: |
Sure, there are a few things we could do to make life easier for immigrants, but the better question is, why should we?
We've done enough, we have done more than most countries in the world, and definitely more than the minimum required. |
For the large part, Canada's immigration program isn't for altruistic reasons. Clearly declining birth rates, a need for high tech skills, and a need for a motivated unskilled workforce are behind Canada's push for higher levels of immigration. It then follows that it's important to do a lot of stuff to help these immigrants settle and begin becoming tax payers and making babies that will drive economic expansion.
But ultimately, I would hope a Chinese scientist can do his research and figure out, before he comes, what nations will accept his qualifications. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
[
So I think Gopher's point about immigration being a very difficult experience is one we should consider when labeling immigrants as "lazy" , "welfare bums", " leeches" , "not wanting to assimilate". They are just up against so much and these charges are without any reality. Simply not who 99% of immigrants are. |
While we're not technically immigrants, you would think a life in Korea would give one some sympathy about assimilation. I don't think ESL teachers are models of assimilation. |
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Junior
Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Location: the eye
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: yes |
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| Ilsanman wrote: |
My fiance and I travelled to Canada in the summer. She was given great treatment, not a single bad incident. She sees what I go through living here, but somehow can't empathize. Must be in the blood. |
I haven't yet met a Korean who had any idea how difficult it can be for foreigners here.
They al think its too easy for us. Earning millions of won a day, free appartments, women fawning all over us and all that. |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| Novernae wrote: |
| Adventurer wrote: |
| I am sure life is difficult for many immigrants. Especially, since it is hard to transition in Canada when you don't have either a Canadian or an American degree. It is better in the U.S. when it comes to that regard. They look at your experience and where you worked more. Canada doesn't do as much of that. |
Can you elaborate on this? I really haven't heard of a general feeling of experience over location in the US before, especially when compared to Canada. Do you really feel that employers are more accepting of immigrants in the US than in Canada? Can you offer any evidence of this? |
I am not sure how I can elaborate on this beyond saying I saw a program in Canada talking about this. On top of that, it is what immigrants recounted to me. Also a friend of mine in Newfoundland told me of how a woman from Angola who was babysitting in the province was formerly a heart surgeon in Angola with many years of experience.
It is easier for a person from another country to become a doctor in the U.S. if they study say in Latin America than to be one in Canada. The U.S. is more flexible than Canada when it comes to credentials. If you can somehow demonstrate that you are qualified via your experience, I would say you have a better chance in getting accepted. Of course, we are talking about immigration to the U.S. and Canada and working. In some cases, though, the U.S. or Canada may reject someone with an accounting degree from say Jordan or Costa Rica. But they could easily do their master's degree there. If you studied in the U.K, the U.S., Australia, I don't think you would really have much of a problem. |
Adventurer,
Interesting that immigrants would be recounting comparisons of the US and Canada... I haven't met many that have experienced both and were therefore able to give a comparison.
Thanks for the video BJWD. I just watched it. Though it did not explicitly say the US is more accepting it showed one person who was able to get a job there but not in Canada.
The video doesn't distinguish well between two entirely separate issues. One issue, easily fixable (that I mentioned before) is that of certification. It is wrong for Canada to be implying that people can come here and begin to work in their highly specialized areas without retraining (though I'm not entirely convinced that they do), it is also up to the immigrants to find out what the necessary qualifications are before arriving. If this is truly happening it can be solved by changing government policy and literature, as well as recertification processes.
The second issue is discrimination among employers. That is an entirely separate issue that was obviously the problem for the woman who was suing the government. It is not up to the government to promise jobs. The only way this could be solved would be to change the mindset of Canadians, possibly through a public education campaign. A much messier and unpromising process.
The not Canada website lost its credibility for me when it started using weather and lack of culture as a reason not to come. If you want to criticize a country for its immigration policies, then that's fine. But coming to Canada and being offended by the weather and our tax system (which you know about when you choose the place) is an entirely different thing. Saying the place has no culture is like name calling during a discussion; it gets you nowhere and lowers whatever good points you may have had. |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject: yes |
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| They say we have no culture? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. |
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Sooke
Joined: 12 Jan 2004
Location: korea
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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From that "not canada" site.
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Top 8 reasons to go to Canada.
8. Discriminatory and Dishonest Immigration System.
Immigration to Canada is based on a point system, obtained with your education, qualifications and job experience. Points are good enough for immigration, but in Canada, they are not good enough to get a job in your field. Amazing, how the credentials that qualify you to come to Canada are the same credentials that don't qualify you for your profession in Canada. The reason is, Canada only wants immigrants to do the labor jobs - pizza delivery, driving taxis, factory work etc. |
Does anybody here in this forum really believe that any country should just accept a degree on it's face value? C'mon, I teach doctors and nurses at one of the best Korean universities, and there's no way I'd visit them as doctors in Canada without being certified by some sort of governmental review. I am forced to give 60% of them A's regardless of whether they show up or not. And Korean doctors misdiagnosed my friend's Mono as Spinal Meningitis and subjected him to 3 spinal taps, before another teacher went on the internet to find the symptoms of mono. Even then, the doctors didn't believe it was mono until a USFK doctor (boyfriend of another teacher) showed up. I just think it's a quality issue, Canada should ensure that these docors are able to practice in Canada. If you were a construction worker on a job site back home, would you want to have a Korean construction worker on that same site if that worker wasn't given a comprehensive review of safety procedures needed/expected? Anyway...
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7. Out Of Control Cost Of Living.
From rent, to utility bills, to shopping, to phone, internet and cable bills, to gas, to car insurance, to eating out, to basically anything you have to pay for or buy, the cost of living in Canada has become astronomical. Recent immigrants are astonished as to how expensive everything is. It is estimated that compared to most countries around the world, the cost of living in Canada is on average five times greater. |
I'll be the first one to agree that Canada is expensive for a lot of things, but no more expensive than any other western country I've visited, with the exception of the US. (Stuff is definately cheaper in the States.) However, I don't think the author of the list considers what the high prices are for, such as food safety, worker's wages, etc. Not much of the money is profit, and it is recycled into the community so that you don't get robbed when you leave the store, because people have better wages. However, these people could've done research on that before they came, they're professionals after all.
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6. Health Care Crisis.
Practicing physicians in Canada are in a shortage, 1 in 4 Canadians cannot get a family doctor. Canadian doctors are leaving to move permanently to the United States. Statistics Canada and the Canadian Medical Association both have identified that for every 1 American doctor that moves to Canada, 19 (nineteen) Canadian doctors move to the United States! Doctors in Canada are overworked and underpaid, and there is a cap on their salaries. |
Then you should've gone to the US. Everyone knows that doctors and other health care professionals are more highly valued in the US. If the States is better able to give someone credit for their degree in medicine, shouldn't one have researched this too?
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5. Very High Taxes.
Yes, you have the GST, the PST, totaling 15%, on practically everything you purchase and many other taxes taken out of our weekly paycheck. You have to pay a whopping amount to the government, out of your hard earned salary, so that the government can turn around and give it to beer drinking, hockey watching welfare bums. Fair? It does not matter, it's Canada. |
Again, this could have been easily looked into. But to say all the money goes to "beer drinking, hockey watching welfare bums" is ridiculous. Canada is a huge country with a small population, a lot of those tax dollars provide people with clean drinking water*, repaired highways**, free schools, etc., etc. The taxes are fair, if EVERYONE pays them. (*Except for some places in Ontario and New Brunswick. **Except for Quebec.)
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4. Money Hungry Government.
Canadian Embassies around the world lie to foreigners, painting this picture that Canada is Utopia, because they want them to come to Canada. Why? Because foreigners bring money! So after being deceived, these foreigners come. They must bring with them at least $10,000. Canada has an immigration quota of 250,000 per year. So please do the math, 250,000 multiplied by $10,000 each equals a whopping 2.5 Billion dollars that Canada gains from immigrants every year. |
I'm not sure what happens to the money. Is the money flat out given to the government, or does the immigrant have to show he/she has this much money before entering, or does this reflect the cost of the immigration process? So I will not critisize this point as I don't know what the fee is for and don't have time to look it up now.
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3. No Culture.
Unlike almost every other country in the world, Canada has no culture. Actually American culture is what dominates Canada. When was the last time you had some 'Canadian' food? There are no Canadian traditions and there is no national identity. What does it even mean to call yourself a 'Canadian'. . .nothing really. People living in Canada, still identify themselves with the country they 'originally' came from. |
WAH!!! Look around, you'll see Canadian food or delicacies, or you may sample the food from one of the many other countries whose people have decided to make Canada their home. And quite often, i have seen that many immigrant groups wish to immerse themselves within their own cultural groups, and there's no problem with that. Nobody is stopping them from joining or establishing their own cultural centre. Or they are able to immerse themselves into 'Canadian' culture, if they so choose (ie: join a sports team, pick up a new hobby.) Anyway, immigrants must've heard about Canada somehow... Bottom line this could be easily researched beforehand.
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2. Worst Weather.
Yes, Canada has the worst weather conditions of any country in the world. Freezing cold temperatures, snow, ice, hail, winds, storms etc. From the Prairie provinces to the Maritimes, from the Territories to southern Ontario, the weather is so horrific and disgusting that many Canadians leave Canada simply because of this reason alone. |
Look at a map. Canada's the pink blob on top of the US. Looks pretty north, huh? Hmmm, what weather is associated with north again? And many Canadians do leave for the winter, but they come back for the summer. Try BC.
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1. No Jobs.
Yes, coast to coast, there are no jobs. Immigrants are highly qualified (MD's, PhD's, Lawyers, Engineers etc.) but they are driving taxi cabs, delivering pizza's or working in factories. Even people with bachelors degrees from Canadian Universities cannot find jobs after graduation. This is the tragedy associated with immigration to Canada. I feel sorry for those immigrants who are stuck in Canada for the rest of their lives. It is indeed a very sad and hopeless future. |
Been to Alberta lately? Damn, even cooks are getting 14-16$ an hour. Sure, it may not be what you want to do, but how many people, including Canadians, are really doing what they want or are trained to do. Again, research.
It must be discouraging that people are unable to do what they are trained for upon arrival, but these procedures are in place for a reason. It's not gonna be a free ride, but with hard work and determination, some of these professionals will be able to work in the field they have chosen. I can't imagine Immigration Canada saying that it would be super easy to come to Canada. And if it's too difficult, there are other options.
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Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:00 am Post subject: |
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If I may, I'd like to look at some random ideas on this thread!
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7. Out Of Control Cost Of Living.
It is estimated that compared to most countries around the world, the cost of living in Canada is on average five times greater. |
It is an expensive country. But 5x? I wonder if this "estimate" counts Japan, England, or Singapore.
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5. Very High Taxes.
Yes, you have the GST, the PST, totaling 15%, on practically everything you purchase and many other taxes taken out of our weekly paycheck. You have to pay a whopping amount to the government, out of your hard earned salary, so that the government can turn around and give it to beer drinking, hockey watching welfare bums. |
A blatant lie. Our ridiculous taxes support Quebecois bureaucrats, not hockey watchers.
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3. No Culture.
Unlike almost every other country in the world, Canada has no culture. Actually American culture is what dominates Canada. When was the last time you had some 'Canadian' food? |
Partly true; but in a way, it's a good thing because it lets people enjoy a dim sum attitude to culture. If you want any kind of international food you like, it's there. Compare this to "you can have any kind of food you like as long as it's Korean".
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2. Worst Weather.
the weather is so horrific and disgusting that many Canadians leave Canada simply because of this reason alone. |
Guilty. Hate it, hate it. But it's hardly a secret or some cover-up.
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1. No Jobs.
Immigrants are highly qualified (MD's, PhD's, Lawyers, Engineers etc.) but they are driving taxi cabs, delivering pizza's or working in factories.
He'd settled for a research job at the University of Toronto while trudging toward a second post-graduate degree. |
Kiss my curvy arse. Does this writer think that native graduates with advanced degrees have jobs raining on them? The problem of this mismatch between university oversupply and trade demand applies to every western society. Some of us left Canada to teach here because no one valued our university degrees, and we would have jumped at a research job at the U of T.
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| My fiance and I travelled to Canada in the summer. She was given great treatment, not a single bad incident. |
Ditto with my wife. The only bad incident was in a Korean mart when she was scolded by an old man for not speaking Korean to him! 
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| For the large part, Canada's immigration program isn't for altruistic reasons. Clearly declining birth rates, a need for high tech skills, and a need for a motivated unskilled workforce are behind Canada's push for higher levels of immigration. |
Certainly. We have some moral obligation to help refugees or those in desperation, but no one has the right to expect immigration and a good job as their birthright. Countries have the right to match immigration numbers for their own needs.
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| a phenomenon many fear is only the tip of the iceberg, given the poor job this country sometimes does of integrating newcomers and addressing their mental-health needs. |
Oh? But yet we discuss these issues openly and frequently in our mass media, and have government departments dedicated to their resolution? Do other countries fret about helping immigrants.. ever?
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years of study and experience to be a doctor or engineer only to find that your qualifications mean nothing and you have to be a shelf-stacker in a supermarket?
Does anybody here in this forum really believe that any country should just accept a degree on it's face value? C'mon, I teach doctors and nurses at one of the best Korean universities, and there's no way I'd visit them as doctors in Canada without being certified by some sort of governmental review. |
Well said. While we might disagree with the treatment of foreign degrees by jealous professional unions, only an uninformed press would chide Canadians for not treating your Cambodian PhD with parity to a domestic one. Many of us have indeed worked in degree factories here.
In summary, there's many things I don't like about Canada and don't miss. The weather, the taxes, the smug America-bashing, the bureaucracy. But in comparison to some countries we won't mention who require alien cards and constantly portray foreign workers as diseased, womanizing criminals, Canada's accommodation of newcomers looks pretty good. What we don't need is more regulations, quotas, and hand-wringing over this 'issue'; it just makes life more expensive and jobs more scarce for those left, and drives more of us out.
Ken:> |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:23 am Post subject: |
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Novernae, I didn't look at BJWD's link. I was saying, in Canada, I saw on the news someone speak of how difficult it was to get credentials recognized in Canada. I had a friend in the U.S. who was a Colombian doctor and he just had to pass certain exams to get in to become a doctor. I don't recall in Canada seeing foreign doctors having that same opportunity. And if my friend from Newfoundland also saw a program where a woman from Angola who knew how to perform open-heart surgery could not qualify to be a doctor. I am not bashing Canada. I am sure there are difficulties for immigrants coming with foreign degrees to either countries. However, for doctors and nurses, it appears to be easier for them to integrate into the system in the U.S.
As far as some site talking about the Canadian cold, Sweden is cold, so is Norway, and there is more to a country than its climate. Many people like life in Maine in the U.S. and people in Maine live better than people do in warm Texas. As far as taxes, there is a reason why people pay taxes, and it is not simply to pay the salaries of politicians, so let us not diverge from the topic at hand.
I am going based on impressions. I have the impression that doctors have an easier time working in the U.S. than in Canada if they hail from other countries. Do you think because Canada is a not-for-profit system and it will only go by diplomas from certain countries. I could be wrong about my assertion about doctors, but if someone has something to correct my perceptions, please do so. I am not an expert on the subject. |
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Ilsanman
Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Bucheon, Korea
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:26 am Post subject: yes |
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I just checked out that site.
What a bunch of crap.
I mean that not canada site. |
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Novernae
Joined: 02 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:55 am Post subject: |
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| Sooke wrote: |
| Does anybody here in this forum really believe that any country should just accept a degree on it's face value? C'mon, I teach doctors and nurses at one of the best Korean universities, and there's no way I'd visit them as doctors in Canada without being certified by some sort of governmental review. I am forced to give 60% of them A's regardless of whether they show up or not. And Korean doctors misdiagnosed my friend's Mono as Spinal Meningitis and subjected him to 3 spinal taps, before another teacher went on the internet to find the symptoms of mono. Even then, the doctors didn't believe it was mono until a USFK doctor (boyfriend of another teacher) showed up. I just think it's a quality issue, Canada should ensure that these docors are able to practice in Canada. If you were a construction worker on a job site back home, would you want to have a Korean construction worker on that same site if that worker wasn't given a comprehensive review of safety procedures needed/expected? Anyway... |
No, I don't think degrees should be blindly accepted, but I think more should be done to ease the transition. Within Canada, medical degrees are recognized up to the final residencies (paid) which have to be recompleted under Canadian supervision. The problem, however is that there simply aren't enough spaces around the country to support the number of doctors immigrating. I was rather shocked to learn (from the video posted by BJWD) that pharmacists have to repeat their entire training starting at the same level as any other BSc holder (4 years)... that seems excessive. I think some sort of advanced placement is in order, as well set equivalencies for certain popular countries. Kind of like AP in university. Take a test, pass, and you don't have to take the course. Or transfer credits from certain countries that are deemed acceptable. There are definitely certain areas where this is not possible, like the judge from Sudan (I think) who felt he should be able to work in his field here... Canadian law and Sundanese law are not the same. Just as a law degree wouldn't be accepted without recertification in the US.
Adventurer,
Thanks for finally answering my question. I have no idea how it is done in the US, which is why I kept asking for this comparison. It seems that BJWD's link might have been the program you mentioned, although there has been a lot of discussion on the matter for years now. Just some input on the Angola woman's situation you mentioned. It is not necessarily that policy was preventing her from recertifying, but rather that there simply were no spots left for her to do her residency. It's terrible, but this is not immigration policy; It is a poorly planned medical education system that affects both Canadian medical students and foreign trained doctors (though unfairly the Canadian students get first dibs). It has more to do with the education system than with the not-for-profit medical system (though the two are inexorably linked). I wouldn't consider myself an expert either, but I do have two family members currently in the medical residency system who have very strong opinions on the matter. |
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