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SOOHWA101
Joined: 04 Mar 2006
Location: Makin moves...trying to find 24pyung
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 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Yaya wrote: |
| ChopChaeJoe wrote: |
| I think it (Texas' population) was 18.5 million when I was in high school. California has, what, 35 million, and it's the most populous. |
The Texas population is closer to 23 million, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/48000.html
That state also has the lowest percentage of high school grads at 78 percent, and its school system is infamous as inefficient, corrupt and the like.
No wonder the saying goes "People from the South are two things: stupid and cheap." |
I love it when people display their ignorance for all to see.
Texas is the the front lines of our immigration crisis. What percentage of the "non-registered" citizens of Texas that attend "public schools" do you think make up those statistics? How many of these "Mexicans" do you think care about education?
Awe.....I love it. I love it when "WE" get it and the rest of America does not. And at the same time I am disgusted at the irony of someone poking fun at the perceived ignorance of the Texas educational system. Didn't they teach you in college to SEE the FOREST for the TREES?
They do in Texas......... |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:21 pm Post subject: |
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| n3ptne wrote: |
We didn't lose Vietnam. We didn't fight Vietnam.
It was never declared.
We never invaded. |
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| Chomsky is superficial? |
Not all the time, but you sure as hell are (all the time).
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| He, in more ways than one, does exactly that. Compares the modern American society to German society prior to 1940. |
No, he draws a few broad juxtapositions (in the sense that nearly every state could be said to share a few things with Nazi Germany ), but specifically states that Germany was unique to its own time and place and is not the same as the U.S. (this is obvious). There's an interview on youtube somewhere where he discusses it (I think the overall topic of the speech had to do with Israel). Only jackasses like you bring the Nazis into it. Get it through your pin head: the Nazis were Nazis. We are not them, and will never become them (we can only ever be "bad" in our unique way). You may think it's fashionable to bring up "the Nazis" any time you feel like it.
And quit interpreting Chomsky in your own 1-track minded terms - you
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| We're losing in Iraq? How? We have military control over ever major terrirtory. The war is already over. We're occupying Iraq.. |
No we don't have control, that's why we continue to fight and lose huge amounts of money. At this rate the so-called "occupation" is on course to end just like Vietnam. That means us leaving in failure, thousands of lives and several billion dollars less off.
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| and we're doing quite successfully. |
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| Oh, and I love the smileys... real nice poncho |
Mod Edit: Removed flames. |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| n3ptne wrote: |
| Oh, we without a doubt have blundered in dozens of ways. Still I don't see how anyone can rationally state that "we aren't winning in Iraq"... we sure as hell aren't "losing" in Iraq. |
yes we are.
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What constitutes loss? What were the objectives of going there in the first place?
To placate, democratize, and liberate a people? Don't be so *beep* naive.
We went to Iraq for one and one reason only: Money. |
Fine, if we follow that, we've spent half a trillion dollars on basically nothing. We haven't secure the oil, and sure as hell won't if we end up leaving with our tail between our legs (which is probably going to happen in the end).
...(skipping a bunch of crap you wrote cuz it's was meaningless)...
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| Do we spend more than we make? Of course, thats the very nature of the system |
No it's not, deficits are not unlimited things. You know nothing of economics either.
...(more false BS skipped over for the sake of brevity)...
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| Sure you, and everyone else, can bury your heads and think that the US government is incompetent an effectively unable to do anything. The truth is much scarier. These people are highly intelligent and very able. They know exactly what they're doing. Were some explosives left unguarded? Sure. So what. We're still fighting what may amount to the most successful war in the history of warfare. The Russians in Afghanistan lost 15,000 troops in a period of 10 years... and the Russians fought a much more brutal campaign than the American public would ever let it's military machine conduct. |
They're just people. Sure they may be smart, but they ****** up in Iraq, so they're not all that smart. Your lack of critical thinking on every point is laughable.
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| How many coalition troops have been lost in Afghanistan in over a 5 year span of time? 436. How many Americans? 282. |
Arbitrary numbers don't matter. Overall results do.
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| I love to hear people say how the people in power "didn't anticipate the levels of insurgency that they are now struggling to overcome". |
Cheney and Rumsfeld estimated like six weeks tops. We aren't overcoming the insurgency, rather they are overcoming us.
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| This is our second war in Afghanistan. We funded and helped train their military, we directly supported Bin Laden, we gave rise to the Taliban, and for nearly a decade we watched (and helped) their tactics and dedication to fighting a technologically superior, yet ideologically inferior, Russian military. |
what the **** is your point? You're only proving that peasants with low-grade rocket launchers can destroy helicopters and blow up tanks. That's exactly what's happening now to us.
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| Now, 10 years later, we are essentially fighting the very people who were once our allies. We knew very well what they were capable of before we went to war. We knew from day one that these people were never going to lie down and be subjugated by any foreign occupiers |
We knew about Saddam's pitiful excuse for an army (else we wouldn't have dared attack like we did), we had no idea the insurgency would be as ferocious as it is. It caught us off guard. We were unprepared and that is why they are currently wearing us down slowly but surely. Things are going very badly for us.
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| [b]How else do you think we improved on the Russian casualty statistics?[/b] Do you think the Americans are better trained and equipped for fighting a guerilla war? You think the Americans are smarter than the Russians? |
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| The Russian force in Afghanistan grew to over 100,000, and in the first five years they incurred military losses roughly 50 times greater than that of America, despite a limited troop presence of roughly 5 times less (18,000). Then again... maybe the Americans are smarter than the Russians. Turns out that it's much harder for the Mujahideen to fight a war against a superpower when they aren't being financed by one, and that it's much easier for a superpower to fight against them when any thought of significant foreign assistance, i.e. insolence of American supremacy, is unfathomable at this point. |
oh god, you are so facking cracked out.  who cares about the Russian statistics? They lost, and so are we. The "stats" you list are apples and oranges and mean nothing. WE ARE NOT WINNING AGAINST THE INSURGENCIES. Don't take my word for it, just listen to the generals for Christsake.
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| It really isn't difficult to understand when you take into context that the US has been able to methodologically prepare for a decade. I can only fathom a guess at when the plans were first drawn up to invade but if you think they were written any time after or during the late 1990s you are being really crass. |
Yeah, you really can only "fathom a guess" about absolutely everything you write about. Too bad you're consistently wrong about everything. keep it up!
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| As for Iraq? It's our second war there too. Again we have a previous history of funding and training their military, and, no surprise here, we had supported Saddam and his regime and helped them maintain power for nearly two decades. |
Yes, we realise this. It's really no secret, and you're not reminding us of anything we don't obviously know already. Don't forget everyone on here is smarter than you and knows much more about it.
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| Do you really think the US wasn't as prepared for this as you think? |
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The only people who should have been shocked, and taken by surprise, are the people whose political and historical awareness is on the same level as a nine year old. Is that what you'll have me believe about American politicians? If so it says something far more revealing about the American people (circa my comment about low levels of intelligence) vis-a-vis how they vote and who they have been voting for over the last fifty years.
Personally I find that scenario a little far fetched. I just think American society (and most of you) have allowed yourselves to be inundated by the propaganda wing, er media, of the government.
I'll set my watch and see how long it takes for someone to start talking about how the media isn't controlled by the government... |
man... you just don't understand.
Mod Edit: Removed flames and edited for language. |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| n3ptne wrote: |
Total US deaths from Iraq/Afghanistan: 3092
Total US population: 300 000 000
Total cost of the war in Iraq/Afghanistan: roughly $400 000 000 000USD
American GDP/year: $12 400 000 000 000USD
American GDP over 5 years: $62 000 000 000 000USD
Percent of the population killed in the wars: .001%
Percent of the total American GDP over 5 years spent on war: .64%
Average cost per American per year of both wars: $266.66USD
Average cost per American per day: 73� USD
Total cost of the Vietnam War (including inflation): $531 500 000 000USD
Cost per year of the Vietnam War: $66 437 500 000USD
Cost per year of the Iraq/Afghan Wars: $80 000 000 000USD
Total US population circa 1970: 203 302 031
Average cost per American per year of the Vietnam War: $40.85USD
Average cost per American per day of the Vietnam War: 11� USD
Percent of the population killed in Vietnam: .0286%
Percent of the total American GDP over 8 years spent in Vietnam: 6.6% |
More gibberish. Why do you keep citing Vietnam? We lost that war, get a new example already.
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So in a nutshell kiddies:
The war in Iraq/Afghanistan, while overall more costly, is actually about 10 times cheaper compared to the GDP.
While it is true that the average American is paying 62� USD more per day to finance the war, that number does not reflect inflation. Accounting for inflation Vietnam cost the average American citizen, working with the population data from 1970 approximately 58� USD per day.
So... for an extra 4� per person per day we are fighting a war (or losing it, rather, just like we lost Vietnam) that is roughly 300 times less deadly for our soldiers in comparsion to the total population. Granted we've only been fighting in the Middle East for 5 years, while we fought in Vietnam for 8, so essentially the longer our operations in the Middle East last, the more dramatic this relationship is going to get, and while Iraq definately has a more costly relationship on a day to day level, our military has still improved vastly since the 1970s. This still isn't taking into account the vastly larger troop presence in Vietnam (500 000 at peak involvement) that is around 5 times greater than the presence in Iraq/Afghanistan, nor is it taking into consideration the roughly 4 000 000 Vietnamese killed over the span of 11 years by such a greater force as opposed to the 600 000 Iraqis killed over the span of 5 years by such a smaller force.
Granted the average soldier and his equipment is now much more expensive than his Vietnam era counterpart, but the per soldier per kill per year ratio has also risen dramatically. More expensive and more effective.
These numbers look great. Less percent of the GDP. Less people dying. Only nominal increases in the day to day operational cost, and less foreign nationals being slaughtered. Sure it costs us more now to kill someone than it did in Vietnam, but comon, I never said the US military was perfect. |
First, cite your sources. Second, see above (about Vietnam). You haven't proved a thing, nor changed the simply fact that we are not succeeding in Iraq.
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| ...I spend more on coffee per day. Yeh. We're completely getting our asses kicked in Iraq. The shame of losing is so great. What's we gonna do? |
We could start by sacrificing you in a large public square. That would quell a lot of resentment right off the bat. |
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n3ptne
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Location: Poh*A*ng City
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:56 am Post subject: |
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Guess you really haven't read much of Chomsky lil guy...
"What is needed in the U. S. today [1968] ... is a kind of denazification."
"What's happening [in Afghanistan in late 2001] is some sort of silent genocide...we [the U.S.] are in the midst of apparently trying to murder 3 or 4 million people."
More information about his allusions to America and Nazi Germany,
http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1232
http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0205/30/ltm.01.html
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7110
Relevant published material on the topic:
Understanding Power
Imperial Ambitions
Hegemony or Survival
...just to name a few off the top of my head, forgive me for not wasting more of my time to research information that is ultimately over the head of my intended audience.
cite my statistical sources? Gladly:
www.costofwar.com
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp_in_197-economy-gdp-in-1970
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/indiv/usgd/census/1970.html
http://www.vietnam-war.info/casualties/
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/modules/vietnam/index.cfm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_casualties_in_Afghanistan
http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/Inflation_Rate/InflationCalculator.asp
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0829/p15s01-cogn.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_force_in_Iraq
http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/history/A0802662.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A23970-2003Nov10?language=printer
http://www.mrfa.org/vnstats.htm
http://www.antiwar.com/casualties/
http://25thaviation.org/id275.htm
I used more but those were the easiest to pull out of the Google Toolbar.
Though, I must, and I'm highly embarassed to be doing so, concede that I did make one egregious error in my calculations. I used the factor of 8 years while calculating GDP comparisons between Iraq and Vietnam, when Vietnam rightfully should have been represented as 11 years.
Essentially an additional three trillion dollars should have been added to my equations, and the resultant math, which I'm too lazy to do at the moment, would see the figure of 6.6% of the US GDP drop a considerable sum. Sorry. No one is perfect... but I try.
Oh.. and you keep saying that we lost Vietnam. Define how we lost. Corporate America got exactly what corporate America wanted out of Vietnam, and it wasn't until the war stopped being profitable that they withdrew their support and a conclusion to the war was realized.
In Iraq they are getting exactly what they want out of the war as well.
Corporate America is who makes and affects America's foreign policy, they determine, rather directly, how America does business, and they are making a mint off of the war. So I just want to get this straight:
We toppled the regime.
We control the country, rather effectively I might add, in that we are able to do what we want, when we want from an economical standpoint.
We are fighting a war that is 300 times safer than Vietnam.
We are fighting a war that is not 10 times (in comparison to the GDP, because of my screw up) cheaper but still somewhere in the ballpark of 5 to 7 times.
We are flagrantly violating UN resolutions and international law left and right without any fear of international reprisals.
We are bullying other nations into supporting the war effort by threatening to either a.) reduce the amount of aid given to their country, or b.) refuse further aid requests.
We are giving billions of dollars of kick backs to the corporate elite who are the ones responsible for the perpetuation of the war.
And we're losing? How?
...patsis... does it ever get old, getting beaten with an intellectual stick so often? Just wondering. |
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n3ptne
Joined: 14 Sep 2005
Location: Poh*A*ng City
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| Are you still walking around talking as if I give a crap? I don't get into serious debates with ass-hats who defend their ass-hattery with b*llsh*t geographical references. I suppose I'll toss something out for you though just so you can feel like you're special. |
Mother fucker you CANT get into a serious debate with me. I'll tear apart anything, any statistic, any citation you put out there and won't break a sweat. You aren't dealing with some fangul from the Bronx standing on a corner. You see how many statistics and citations I've used thus far? There are enough EDU and ORG's to give you a fucking nosebleed.
Oh, that and just flat out saying I'm wrong without actually addressing any of the points I've made, or countering them with rational ones of you own.
Mod Edit: Remove flames and edited for language |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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The "discovernetwork" is a left wing propaganda site (perfect for gullible morons like you who don't know the first thing about credibility), and there's nothing about Nazis in those other links. Plus I know for a *fact* Chomsky has never compared the American government to Nazis in a serious way.
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Relevant published material on the topic:
Understanding Power
Imperial Ambitions
Hegemony or Survival
...just to name a few off the top of my head, forgive me for not wasting more of my time to research information that is ultimately over the head of my intended audience. |
Stop pretending like you've read Chomsky. You are obviously illiterate and there's no comic book form for you to skim off of, so stop pretending. You are a total sham.
What you've failed utterly to do is apply them (your "stats" ) in a meaningful way. So far they don't support anything you've tried to argue. A [insult removed] could google up a bunch of stats haphazardly as you've done, it takes someone with an ounce of critical thought capability (i.e not you) to properly interpret them.
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| Though, I must, and I'm highly embarassed to be doing so, concede that I did make one egregious error in my calculations. I used the factor of 8 years while calculating GDP comparisons between Iraq and Vietnam, when Vietnam rightfully should have been represented as 11 years. |
You should be highly embarassed. You can't even get your facts straight.
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| Oh.. and you keep saying that we lost Vietnam. Define how we lost |
Oh man, this is turning into a slapstick comedy
How did we lose?! We capitulated. We left the country (though not before having utterly wrecked it), and the North Vietnamese overran it in 1975. Billions wasted, millions dead, and the utter failure to stop the spread of communism into South Vietnam. WE LOST. Nobody even argues otherwise except you (because you're insane). Study some basic history.
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| Corporate America is who makes and affects America's foreign policy, they determine, rather directly, how America does business, and they are making a mint off of the war. So I just want to get this straight |
There was a short term benefit from increased spending, then it went all to hell. Guess you never heard of "stagflation" (and our "Corporate America", as you say, getting its ass totally kicked by the Japanese and Germans among others). Things like the Oil Crises had a lot to do with it, but your argument that war spending helped the economy in the long run is demonstrably false. The 70's was a decade of American decline, inflation and "malaise". The deficit from things like the Vietnam war were largely responsible. The economy was so bad it eventually gave rise to things like Reganomics in the 80's (then you can start talking Corporate America). Again, study some basic history.
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In Iraq they are getting exactly what they want out of the war as well.
Corporate America is who makes and affects America's foreign policy, they determine, rather directly, how America does business, and they are making a mint off of the war. So I just want to get this straight |
Only a few companies are profitting. And if they don't secure the oil for the long term, a lot of invested money will go down the drain. It looks bleak for them, the situation is slipping from their grasp.
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We toppled the regime.
We control the country, rather effectively I might add, in that we are able to do what we want, when we want from an economical standpoint. |
We do not control the country. We are at war for control against the insurgency, which is getting stronger as we waste time and money getting nowhere. We are losing. EVEN THE GENERALS ARE SAYING THIS.
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| We are fighting a war that is 300 times safer than Vietnam |
Just one of your demented extrapolations from your skewed stats. There's absolutely no way to compare the two, and an idiot like you would never be up to the task anyway.
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| We are bullying other nations into supporting the war effort by threatening to either a.) reduce the amount of aid given to their country, or b.) refuse further aid requests |
They're dropping like flies. Here's the formal withdrawals so far: (2004) - Nicaragua, Spain, Honduras, Dominican Republic, Norway, Philippines, Thailand, Singapore, Hungary, New Zealand, Tonga, Iceland; (2005) - Portugal, Netherlands, Ukraine, Bulgaria; (2006) - Romania, Japan and Italy. That's quite the list. Even the British are screaming to get out as soon as possible with even guys like General Dannatt publicly recommending it.
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| And we're losing? How? |
I've already explained it directly several times (feel free to go back and read) as well as indirectly by debunking all your *******.
Mod Edit: Remove flames and edited for language |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:16 pm Post subject: |
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| n3ptune wrote: |
| ...patsis... does it ever get old, getting beaten with an intellectual stick so often? Just wondering |
How could a high school drop-out army loser like you possibly be an intellectual? You've obviously never gone to university, or studied or read a single book in your life. Coming to Korea on a battleship and posting your laughable ignorance on here for all to see doesn not impress. Everyone can tell you're a phoney, a fake, a fraud, a total sham. You're not fooling anyone. And yes, it does get old. |
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Nambucaveman
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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I am moving this to the Current Events forum as the discussion has skewed from anything remotely to do with living in Korea.
I am urging people to watch the language and the flaming. I have not had a chance to read through this entire thread, but have edited a few posts.
NC |
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Meegook
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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Gee, looks like I missed out on some fun.
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Bush and Company are fools. Ya-ta Boy |
Bad premise. Bush is no fool, he's accomplishing exactly what he and his diabolical cohorts want accomplished.
Together they are socking away, not millions, but billions into their off shore accounts.
They are systematically dismantling the US Constitution, 'that damn piece of paper."
They are building detention centers throughout the US [all the while socking away more money in letting the no-bid contract to Cheney's Halliburton].
They have successfully convinced not only its citizens but citizens of other western nations that the US led ' Coalition' needs to fight and fund a 'war that will not end in our liftetimes' [Cheney] against a nebulous ominipresent CIA contrived 'enemy' to provide future billions for them and their evil cohorts.
They have ingrained fear among the population for control purposes.
They have rewritten US laws exempting them from the Geneva Convention and any future prosecution for war crimes.
They have bled the US dry through the contrived economic boom stimulated by artifically low interest rates instigated by the now departed Jewish banker, Greenspan by sucking many Americans into debt that is now beginning to choke them and when the smoke clears after the bubble bursts, the Banks will own more property for pennies on the dollar then we can imagine.
There's more, much more.
But Bush is anything but a fool. It's we who are the fools for letting them get away with as much as we have. |
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MantisBot
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
Location: Itaewon, Seoul, SK
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| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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| n3ptne wrote: |
| Oh, and one more thing... *beep* NY. |
Scanning through your past posts I see that you're not much of a fighter (by your own admission). Seems to me you're all bark and no bite. Perhaps you're over-compensating for some inadequacies?
I guess what I'm saying is STFU already. You can toss out all the statistical smoke-screens that you want but what your argument comes down to is that "We" (and I don't know who you consider "We" to be, especially since you and I are most definitely not part of the organization you so vaguely reference) are winning in Iraq because "Corporate AmeriKKKa" is making tons of money.
So far you haven't shown who is making the money, you've just tossed out an ephemeral "they." Usually, that kind of talk gets you labeled as nothing more than another conspiracy theorist (and rightly so). If you want to convince people that what you're saying is more than a bunch of numbers with no meaning then get to work on who "they" is. Until you've done that, your arguments are hollow and directionless. Oh yeah, working on that sunny disposition of yours couldn't hurt matters either. Quit being a knob. As I said, it's a tired act and it doesn't cover the fact that you have no point.
So yeah, make a real point or get out of the way. I don't need to use statistics or references to realize that you're full of it. Your argument is based on something for which you have provided no evidence. That alone makes everything else you say irrelevant. Sorry to denigrate the countless hours you must've spent on your previous posts (which leads me to wonder what the hell you DO with your days) but seriously dude, numbers with no direction are useless. It's like building a house without laying out the foundation. Anyone with any concept of how to structure an argument could tell you that.
In closing, thank you and come again "li'l buddy." Have fun in Detroit when you eventually get back there. Maybe you can get run over by one of those 40-50mph (or was it 80-90mph?) cars that drive on the sidewalk. I'm sure it'll be awesome when someone walks up to you and says "You should've been paying attention to your surroundings more you dumb***!"
pfft.
Mod Edit: Remove threat.
---Post Mod editing apology---
I'd like to apologize for the perceived threat in my post that the mods took out. It was not my intention to threaten anyone and I want people to know this. The last thing I want to be known as is a bully as that's very far from the truth. If anyone would like a better explanation of what was removed (if they actually read it), feel free to PM me. For anyone who has no idea of what I'm talking about... w00t! |
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ChimpumCallao
Joined: 17 May 2005
Location: your mom
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:50 am Post subject: |
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OK, im just answering the original question...how does it feel to be american?
i'm a straight girl...but i would liken it to having a 13 inch cack. |
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Meegook
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 8:44 am Post subject: |
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| Texas is the the front lines of our immigration crisis. |
Cry me a river. Bush is a Texas boy and he's finally getting around to doing something about illegal immiration - building a half a fence and it doesn't even cover any part ot Texas. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: |
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Very interesting reading and whatever the "emotions", I've enjoyed the comments, commentary and interpretations of "war" and who benefits and who loses.....
Not an easy call but I think in conclusion and without hitting all the same keys already hit quite well -- we can say those at the bottom of the shyte pile of history are the losers and those at the banquet tables , the winners.
Same old story and unlike Faulkner's opus, not told by an idiot, and with neither sound nor fury......unfortunately.
DD |
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Odannyboy
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Location: Seoul (always)
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:51 pm Post subject: try ireland too |
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there's nothing like living in Korea to make you realize how great everywhere else is...
man i miss the ocean
enuf said
Last edited by Odannyboy on Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:30 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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