|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
|
 Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:30 am Post subject: |
 |
|
I really trying hard to respect other peoples spiritual beliefs, but some of these groups make that very difficult.
I'm going to try and remain civil 5eagles.
First off, the video claims that the Bible has made thousands of predections for future events with 100% accuracy.
Yet it doesn't provide one example.
Not one.
Not one.
Not one.
You would think they would give us an example, especially since they claim that because the Bible has a 100% record on predictions, it is the true word of God.
That the case the short video tries to make. It asks why is the Bible the true word of God when many other books make the same claim? The answer: because it all the predictions made in it haven proven to be true.
Yet again, it doesn't provide an example.
It then argues against Mormonism and Islam because their own predictions are either wrong or too vague and general.
I mean..........who's the real lost lamb?
Someone who bases their whole spiritual outlook on a book, in which any rational person can see clear differences on how God is represented in the Old and New Testement. A person who is clearly so infant in his spiritual beliefs that he needs a source (which is ok) to follow, but isn't even willing to critically examine it because of the fundamental nature in which they believe (who's lost 5eagles?).
I mean 5eagles, your blind faith is ignorance. And i'm sorry to attack your spiritual life like that, but when you stop questioning things you let outside or foreign influences corrupt your mind.
Man, I know I sound like an azzhole, and I hate it when a Christian or Muslim tries the same speach on me. However, I feel like I can speak this way because the only God i'm following is my own.
Deep down inside me I know what's right and what's wrong. I don't need an organized religion, that is less about guiding the spiritual lives of its followers and more about setting a system in place that makes it easier to control a large population.
I mean, the first humans belonged to small tribes and they had family relationships which kept the small population in check - i.e rules of conduct amongst one another.
But as the population grew and more and more humans from different families and tribes began to cohabitate with one another, a new system was needed to keep society in check.
This is when organized religion evolved - i.e. Babalyon.
Now i'm not going to argue that religion has been nothing but destructive for man kind. It was necessary in many ways to build and maintain large populations which would go on to create the innovations (crop production, domestication of animals, ect...) which helped human kind progress.
But at the same time, religion has also taken us away from a deeper personal relationship with God by dividing us on which dogmas to follow.
By cliaming that you have "the answer" to the infinite (like most Christians and Muslims do) you were able to build up your political power and build the support in order to attack your enemies.
In my opinion, the first humans to understand the concept of God, did so while in nature. They were in awe of of the Sun, the moon, the weather, ect... We don't need to look in a book are follow another man's words, we just need to look around us and be inspired and humbled by the beauty of life. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| endo wrote: |
I really trying hard to respect other peoples spiritual beliefs, but some of these groups make that very difficult.
I'm going to try and remain civil 5eagles.
First off, the video claims that the Bible has made thousands of predections for future events with 100% accuracy.
Yet it doesn't provide one example. |
Ahh, but you have to continue the series. Part 2 is about predictions from Isaiah. That's as far as I got before I decided the proof was overwhelming. Yup, I've converted. To Judaism. At least I was circumsised as a baby. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| endo wrote: |
I really trying hard to respect other peoples spiritual beliefs, but some of these groups make that very difficult.
I'm going to try and remain civil 5eagles.
First off, the video claims that the Bible has made thousands of predections for future events with 100% accuracy.
Yet it doesn't provide one example. |
Ahh, but you have to continue the series. Part 2 is about predictions from Isaiah. That's as far as I got before I decided the proof was overwhelming. Yup, I've converted. To Judaism. At least I was circumsised as a baby. |
Endo, did you watch the whole series? Part 1 through 6? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
| fiveeagles wrote: |
Endo, did you watch the whole series? Part 1 through 6? |
Why don't you just give us the summary. What prophecies are exact and 100% correct? The guy rambles like my old Studebaker. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
Endo, did you watch the whole series? Part 1 through 6? |
Why don't you just give us the summary. What prophecies are exact and 100% correct? The guy rambles like my old Studebaker. |
lol
Alright,
Part 2 of 6
2 mins
The rebuilding of the temple
1.
| Quote: |
28 who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd
and will accomplish all that I please;
he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt,"
and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid.
Isaiah 44" ' |
This verse is written 100 years before it comes to pass.
a. Names the person who would do it.
b. Tells what will happen.
2 mins 22 seconds
Isaiah was written in the 700BC and hardly anyone disputes this. The building was built in 550BC. A one hundred and fifty years later.
3 mins
The destruction of Tyre
2.
| Quote: |
I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. 4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock. 5 Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. She will become plunder for the nations, 6 and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the LORD.
Eze 26 |
5 mins
OK...7 predictions of how Tyre would be destroyed
a. I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves.
b. They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock.
c. and so on. Watch the movie if you want it all.
7 min 30 secs
History records the exact details of what was written in the bible.
Want more? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
| fiveeagles wrote: |
Isaiah was written in the 700BC and hardly anyone disputes this. |
So do you have proof that Isaiah, as we know it, dates from 700BCE? And please cite your sources.
That you say "hardly anyone disputes this" ignores a lot of literature supporting Deutero-Isaiah.
BTW, what Biblical prophecies have come true since, say, 100 AD? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
Isaiah was written in the 700BC and hardly anyone disputes this. |
So do you have proof that Isaiah, as we know it, dates from 700BCE? And please cite your sources.
That you say "hardly anyone disputes this" ignores a lot of literature supporting Deutero-Isaiah.
BTW, what Biblical prophecies have come true since, say, 100 AD? |
The creation of Israel. That is what he is going to say.
To be honest, I could make up a lot of prophecies, and many of them would probably be right even 1000 years from now, and I ain't me no genious either. I wonder how many of the prophecies were wrong??? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
endo
Joined: 14 Mar 2004
Location: Seoul...my home
|
| Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| fiveeagles wrote: |
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
Endo, did you watch the whole series? Part 1 through 6? |
Why don't you just give us the summary. What prophecies are exact and 100% correct? The guy rambles like my old Studebaker. |
lol
Alright,
Part 2 of 6
2 mins
The rebuilding of the temple
1.
| Quote: |
28 who says of Cyrus, 'He is my shepherd
and will accomplish all that I please;
he will say of Jerusalem, "Let it be rebuilt,"
and of the temple, "Let its foundations be laid.
Isaiah 44" ' |
This verse is written 100 years before it comes to pass.
a. Names the person who would do it.
b. Tells what will happen.
2 mins 22 seconds
Isaiah was written in the 700BC and hardly anyone disputes this. The building was built in 550BC. A one hundred and fifty years later.
3 mins
The destruction of Tyre
2.
| Quote: |
I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. 4 They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock. 5 Out in the sea she will become a place to spread fishnets, for I have spoken, declares the Sovereign LORD. She will become plunder for the nations, 6 and her settlements on the mainland will be ravaged by the sword. Then they will know that I am the LORD.
Eze 26 |
5 mins
OK...7 predictions of how Tyre would be destroyed
a. I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves.
b. They will destroy the walls of Tyre and pull down her towers; I will scrape away her rubble and make her a bare rock.
c. and so on. Watch the movie if you want it all.
7 min 30 secs
History records the exact details of what was written in the bible.
Want more? |
lol?
How legitimate is the Bible as a source. What is its copyright? I mean it's not a legit historical document, but you give this wise azz response like it is.
And there are a lot of books that have made successful predictions over time. So if that's how (like the video you provided suggests) you determine if it's the word of God, then last Wednesday's horoscope in the Korean Times was inscribed by Yahweh himself.
The video says that because the Bible has made thousands (yes, he says thousands) of correct predictions it must be the word of God.
So 5eagles how would you explain this:
First we'll begin with Genesis.....
| Quote: |
| God says that if Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then the day that he does so, he will die. But later Adam eats the forbidden fruit (3:6) and yet lives for another 930 years (5:5). 2:17 |
Ooops, I guess God slipped his mind on that one.
| Quote: |
| God promises Abram and his descendants all of the land of Canaan. But both history and the bible (Acts 7:5 and Heb.11:13) show that God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 13:15, 15:18, 17:8, 28:13-14 |
Well, I guess i'll give God another 5,000 years for that one to happen.
| Quote: |
| How long was the Egyptian captivity? This verse says 400 years, but Ex.12:40 and Gal.3:17 say 430 years. 15:13 |
Ooops again! I thought the word of God was perfect?
Next, lets take a look at Deuteronomy.....
| Quote: |
| God promises to cast out seven nations including the Amorites, Canaanites, and the Jebusites. But he was unable to fulfill his promise. 7:1 |
That one didn't come true.
| Quote: |
| Prophets and dreamers are to be executed if they say or dream the wrong things. 13:1-5 |
So does this mean God himself has to commit suicide?
Alright, how about Isaiah.......
| Quote: |
| These verses falsely predict that Babylon will never again be inhabited. 13:19-20 |
Wrong on that one.
| Quote: |
| The river of Egypt (identified as the Nile in RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred. 19:5 |
uhhhhh?
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html
That's enough 5eagles, cause I think you get my point.
That website offers 204 examples of false predictions in the Bible.
But I thought the Bible was the word of God, shouldn't it be perfect?
Come on man! Your being brain washed. It's cool to get solace and learn from a religious document.
I've actually learned some things from Christ's message, but Yehweh in the first Testement is a little too vengeful for my likeing.
But to take it as the literal word of God when i've shown you proof of mistakes in it, shows that your too brain washed to look at the thing objectively. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
Isaiah was written in the 700BC and hardly anyone disputes this. |
So do you have proof that Isaiah, as we know it, dates from 700BCE? And please cite your sources.
That you say "hardly anyone disputes this" ignores a lot of literature supporting Deutero-Isaiah.
BTW, what Biblical prophecies have come true since, say, 100 AD? |
Artifacts,
http://www.christianheritagemuseum.com/bronzes.shtml
Archaeological Evidence verifying biblical cities
Archaeological Evidence verifying biblical cities
Evidence supporting the bible...page 32
Evidence supporting the bible
Documenting the find of the old sea scrolls.
When you look at the tables that show the evidence around other historical figures/events and than you look at the evidence for the bible. What is more believable? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
You seem alright, so I will play along for a bit.
[quote="endo]
And there are a lot of books that have made successful predictions over time. So if that's how (like the video you provided suggests) you determine if it's the word of God, then last Wednesday's horoscope in the Korean Times was inscribed by Yahweh himself.[/quote]
Watch the video to see what the criteria must be for it to be the Word of God. Horoscopes do not all within the criteria. (I am not going to post what they are...if you really want to know...watch it.)
| Quote: |
First we'll begin with Genesis.....
| Quote: |
| God says that if Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then the day that he does so, he will die. But later Adam eats the forbidden fruit (3:6) and yet lives for another 930 years (5:5). 2:17 |
Ooops, I guess God slipped his mind on that one. |
Actually, what it reveals is His abounding mercy. Instead of immediate physical death, God chooses to redeem man from the beginning allowing him a period of time to get right with him. So in one sense Adam does die. He dies a spiritual death. No longer can he walk in the eternity God has prepared for him. He is now separated by sin. Through Adam's transgression death has entered into all of creation.
| Quote: |
God promises Abram and his descendants all of the land of Canaan. But both history and the bible (Acts 7:5 and Heb.11:13) show that God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 13:15, 15:18, 17:8, 28:13-14
Well, I guess i'll give God another 5,000 years for that one to happen.
|
Sure...why not? It is the reason why the middle east is such a firebrand. Many believe that Israel destiny is have all of Canaan. Whereas Islam believes the opposite.
| Quote: |
| How long was the Egyptian captivity? This verse says 400 years, but Ex.12:40 and Gal.3:17 say 430 years. 15:13 |
Big deal. Semantics. Sometimes, I tell people I was in Detroit for 2 years when I really was there for 1 year and 11 months. Which one is better? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| fiveeagles wrote: |
When you look at the tables that show the evidence around other historical figures/events and than you look at the evidence for the bible. What is more believable? |
Huh? I didn't see anything about Isaiah / Deutero-Isaiah in any of your links.
And what prophecies have come true since 100 CE? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Moldy Rutabaga
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Location: Ansan, Korea
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| God says that if Adam eats from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then the day that he does so, he will die. But later Adam eats the forbidden fruit (3:6) and yet lives for another 930 years (5:5). 2:17 |
But as the character Adam is intended to live forever, the change from eternity on earth to mortal death means that he does die. The date of when is a triviality.
| Quote: |
| How long was the Egyptian captivity? This verse says 400 years, but Ex.12:40 and Gal.3:17 say 430 years. 15:13 |
Scripture is not as fixated on exact numbers as our culture is. 400 may be an expression and not meant to be literally correct. Even if not, it's not a significant difference.
| Quote: |
| The river of Egypt (identified as the Nile in RSV) shall dry up. This has never occurred. 19:5 |
Getting close lately, apparently!
Well, I'm being a little cheeky here. The others I will leave to biblical scholars. If there's a point to what I'm writing, it's that I think it is actually dangerous to take the position that scripture is literally infallible. This forces us into increasingly twisted explanations to support the infallibility, and eventually it all comes crashing down. I think it would be better to say that the fundamental descriptions and theological teachings in scripture are basically true but at times there are small discrepancies or minor errors. This should not weaken faith if we remember that the Bible is written to explain God's relationship with man and not to function as a history text. The words are inspired by God but recorded by man.
As for the predictions of the Bible later turning out to be true, I believe that this is so. But we have to admit that scripture later turning out to be correct isn't in itself proof unless we have better verification of manuscripts from the dates of those predictions. I say this carefully because again I accept that many OT predictions were inspired by the Holy Spirit, but from an academic viewpoint we need to admit that using the Bible to prove itself isn't a safe idea.
Ken:> |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
fiveeagles
Joined: 19 May 2005
Location: Vancouver
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 3:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
When you look at the tables that show the evidence around other historical figures/events and than you look at the evidence for the bible. What is more believable? |
Huh? I didn't see anything about Isaiah / Deutero-Isaiah in any of your links.
And what prophecies have come true since 100 CE? |
I am not familiar with that so that will take some time, i guess, maybe a week. Regardless, why focus on this aspect when there is so much other evidence to support the accuracy of biblical text and its time period?
Why do you want prophecies after 100 AD? What does this prove? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
huffdaddy
Joined: 25 Nov 2005
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 4:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| fiveeagles wrote: |
| huffdaddy wrote: |
| fiveeagles wrote: |
When you look at the tables that show the evidence around other historical figures/events and than you look at the evidence for the bible. What is more believable? |
Huh? I didn't see anything about Isaiah / Deutero-Isaiah in any of your links.
And what prophecies have come true since 100 CE? |
I am not familiar with that so that will take some time, i guess, maybe a week. Regardless, why focus on this aspect when there is so much other evidence to support the accuracy of biblical text and its time period? |
That's what was on the table.
| Quote: |
| Why do you want prophecies after 100 AD? What does this prove? |
Isn't that about the time the Bible, as we know it now, was finalized? It will eliminate selective inclusion. You know, publishing only those prophecies which came true after they've already been fulfilled. Surely there's a few things from the last 1900 years that had been prophecized.
Edit: One more reason - any pre-Jesus prophecies would have come from the Jewish prophets. How about some prophecies from the Christian disciples? What's their record? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
