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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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 Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 1:25 am Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| flakfizer wrote: |
| What is meant is really, "I don't believe in God, but if I did have a god, I would be sure to ascribe to him/her the type of character I would like him/her to have |
| flakfizer wrote: |
| It's ironic how some here mock people who are sure God exists and then go on to say how sure they are of what God would be like if there were one. |
But that`s exactly what Christians have done. We`re simply talking about different types of people imagining a different type of god. In other words, people with different value systems. |
ANd the ability to think past what they believe, to see what else might be out there. To be honest Flakfizer, you just called yourself a unimaginative. Good job! I, on the other hand, can see past my brainwashing and beliefs and imagine there is something else. |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| God is a fictional character and Jesus has been highly fictionalised. Everyone is free to interpret either of them any way they see fit; you don't have to be religious to interpret religion. Most of the time it seems religious people know the least about their religions. |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:38 am Post subject: |
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If I ever find myself getting annoyed at the utter stupidity of god-fearing peasants (like, I dunno, the OP) or just Christianity in general, I find the best medicine is to kick back, crack a cold beer and proceed to take a nice ocular stroll down some nice passages of Nietzsche's The Antichrist. That always settles it. I doubt anyone will ever be able to so thoroughly and inexorably debunk that religion than he does in that book, bless him.
Here's a nice tag: "In reality there has only been one Christian, and he died on the cross". |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 2:40 am Post subject: |
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OH god! not another religion thread!
place your bets people!
I say 10 pages by sunday night! |
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atlhockey
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Jeonju City
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:23 am Post subject: |
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I just got back from India, where one of my wondeful hostesses explained to me sincerely the basics of Hinduism in her household shrine and how they worship the three gods and of course their wives, who balance the gods themselves and such and...um, once again, atheism is the blatantly obvious choice to me.
So, uh, for those of you who only believe in the one god, what if you have to meet THEM? They're totally gonna be pissed you weren't worshipping the creator, preserver AND destroyer.
Threads like this make my day, really. |
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flotsam
Joined: 28 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| We're gathering a lot of intelligent posts here. Keep it up! ^^ |
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RACETRAITOR
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| atlhockey wrote: |
I just got back from India, where one of my wondeful hostesses explained to me sincerely the basics of Hinduism in her household shrine and how they worship the three gods and of course their wives, who balance the gods themselves and such and...um, once again, atheism is the blatantly obvious choice to me.
So, uh, for those of you who only believe in the one god, what if you have to meet THEM? They're totally gonna be pissed you weren't worshipping the creator, preserver AND destroyer.
Threads like this make my day, really. |
Last time I checked, Christians worshipped three gods. Four if you count Santa. |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:32 am Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
| Troll or not, the responses here are silly. I've never encountered such blatant antipathy for God/religion until I started reading Dave's. And the adolescent bravado of some is quite comical. My favorite type of response is the "if there were a God, I'm sure he/she would/wouldn't..." What is meant is really, "I don't believe in God, but if I did have a god, I would be sure to ascribe to him/her the type of character I would like him/her to have, namely, to be a god that expected nothing of me and let me continue living as though he/she didn't exist." It's ironic how some here mock people who are sure God exists and then go on to say how sure they are of what God would be like if there were one. |
Flakfizer, the OP was a troll, and one contemptuous of those of us who don't believe, full of comic adolescent bravado itself, but apparently that's okay. You really should be even-handed about this, if you want to build credibility.
I could say a number of other things pointing to the fact that from a Christian perspective, the problem here is the OP. But let me turn to the rest of your post, which specifically addresses a point I have made here and elsewhere. laogaiguk and others have pointed to some of the problems in your argument, but I think they've missed the emotional meat of the matter.
What do you think - honestly - Am I going to hell? Should your god exist, am I damned for my failure to believe? Don't try to weasel out with some line about hoping for me to see the light or loving the sinner but not the sin. I've said in other places here that if there is a genetic basis for spirituality, then lucky me, I'm double recessive. I'm not going to come around, or see the light (which Russell called "groping in the dark for the switch"), so you can be honest with me. Stand up for what you believe - tell me true. You don't have to worry about offending me or that I'll take up some crusade against you; I'm confident enough in myself and far enough beyond adolescence that you needn't worry about that either.
I assume that your answer is yes (but you could correct me on that, and if I'm wrong, please do). So, no matter what good I do, how well I treat my fellow humans, no matter what level of personal decency I display throughout my life, your god will toss me for non-belief. How can you describe any entity that conditions its love like that as anything but a bully? (and that is not a rhetorical question). How should I see any justice in the fact that those who believe will be saved by grace? That no matter what evil they do, mere belief and confession (which can be done up to the last minute) gets them a "Get out of hell free" pass? Talk about having your cake and eating it, too.
I don't think I'm any better than you (especially in the comic adolescent post stakes). I imagine you would agree with that your not better than me. I think that you do often make a real practical contribution on this board. I would hope you would grant the same for me. I imagine that you, like me, are generally a good guy, with occasional snippiness coming out in places like this thread or when the photocopier doesn't work, things like that.
The fundamental difference between you and me is that I think we are both going to the same end and I'm not bothered by it. And on the whole, I don't feel a need to bother you about it. But many christians do feel a need to bother others about what they feel their privileged end will be (for sucking up to a bully, in my view). It is passed off as "sharing the good news" but it is really a manifestation of contempt for others, a version of pride, no matter how charitably disguised.
The OP is a not so charitably disguised example, and deserved the polite contempt I showed it in return. Your comment has earned this longer response explaining my position. I do try to ignore religious discussions on this and any other board because I can't be bothered (usually) and because I don't think anyone is going to be convinced. I also have good relations with and genuine respect for many religious people (of a variety of creeds) who not only do good, but also recognize the good I do and who do not feel any need to show contempt for what I believe. I try to do the same for them. And I dislike those atheists who are insistent that religious belief makes people stupid or unworthy of respect. There are times, like in this thread, where it is worthwhile to make clear where I stand.
I've attributed a number of positions to you in this post, flakfizer, and I may be wrong about some or all of them. If so, I apologize and hope that you will correct me. But my argument about what the views of many christians are and how I and many other non-believers respond to them stands. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:59 am Post subject: |
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| flakfizer wrote: |
| Troll or not, the responses here are silly. I've never encountered such blatant antipathy for God/religion until I started reading Dave's. And the adolescent bravado of some is quite comical. My favorite type of response is the "if there were a God, I'm sure he/she would/wouldn't..." What is meant is really, "I don't believe in God, but if I did have a god, I would be sure to ascribe to him/her the type of character I would like him/her to have, namely, to be a god that expected nothing of me and let me continue living as though he/she didn't exist." |
Of course the responses on the thread were silly. Anyone who posted a sincere response (to the OP) is a sucker.
As far as your shock at the antipathy towards God, as you put it, this must mean you haven't been exposed to many thoughts outside of those that agree with your own. Have you ever read a message board that allows atheist thoughts? You can try this one, and see alllll kinds of stuff that will probably blow your mind.
http://www.infidels.org/ (forum - http://www.iidb.org/vbb/index.php)
I highly recommend it, just so you can expose yourself to other ideas.
| Quote: |
| It's ironic how some here mock people who are sure God exists and then go on to say how sure they are of what God would be like if there were one. |
Not following you at all. The people who make these claims are using logic. |
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uberscheisse
Joined: 02 Dec 2003
Location: japan is better than korea.
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:00 am Post subject: |
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there is no god. only religion.
any documented manifestations of god have since been explained away by mental illness and bad weather.
"it's a burning bush talking to me!!!" - no, you're just hallucinating because you fasted in a desert for just over a month.
"the skies opened up and the wrath of god did something!" - no, there was a bad thunderstorm. you think it's a significant event because you're living before science was widely popularized, and new/different things give you pause and you feel you need to write them down, when really you have no idea what you're seeing and should put the pen down until you figure out exactly what it is.
"he's a prophet!!!" - no, you're marginally educated, and he's a syphilitic yammering mumbo-jumbo about doom, maybe his own... once his nose rots off and he dies of his infection.
"i see the virgin mary in the woodgrain of my ikea siding!" - no, you're just a retard who has so little going on in your life that you believe you see shit that just isn't there.
"the dead man rose!" - no, the man in the coma rose. you don't know what comas are because they haven't been discovered yet.
"the man with the big wooden boat saved all the animals!" - no, a legend was told and you don't know the difference between legend and truth because you have a biased education.
"ham begat japeth, and ozer and meshvesh begat abeth and therefore there is no way the world is millions of years old!" - no, see the one above about legends.
yeah. annoying christians. they're good for a laugh. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| Woland wrote: |
What do you think - honestly - Am I going to hell? Should your god exist, am I damned for my failure to believe? Don't try to weasel out with some line about hoping for me to see the light or loving the sinner but not the sin. I've said in other places here that if there is a genetic basis for spirituality, then lucky me, I'm double recessive. I'm not going to come around, or see the light (which Russell called "groping in the dark for the switch"), so you can be honest with me. Stand up for what you believe - tell me true. You don't have to worry about offending me or that I'll take up some crusade against you; I'm confident enough in myself and far enough beyond adolescence that you needn't worry about that either.
I assume that your answer is yes (but you could correct me on that, and if I'm wrong, please do). So, no matter what good I do, how well I treat my fellow humans, no matter what level of personal decency I display throughout my life, your god will toss me for non-belief. How can you describe any entity that conditions its love like that as anything but a bully? (and that is not a rhetorical question). How should I see any justice in the fact that those who believe will be saved by grace? That no matter what evil they do, mere belief and confession (which can be done up to the last minute) gets them a "Get out of hell free" pass? Talk about having your cake and eating it, too.
I don't think I'm any better than you (especially in the comic adolescent post stakes). I imagine you would agree with that your not better than me. I think that you do often make a real practical contribution on this board. I would hope you would grant the same for me. I imagine that you, like me, are generally a good guy, with occasional snippiness coming out in places like this thread or when the photocopier doesn't work, things like that.
The fundamental difference between you and me is that I think we are both going to the same end and I'm not bothered by it. And on the whole, I don't feel a need to bother you about it. But many christians do feel a need to bother others about what they feel their privileged end will be (for sucking up to a bully, in my view). It is passed off as "sharing the good news" but it is really a manifestation of contempt for others, a version of pride, no matter how charitably disguised.
The OP is a not so charitably disguised example, and deserved the polite contempt I showed it in return. Your comment has earned this longer response explaining my position. I do try to ignore religious discussions on this and any other board because I can't be bothered (usually) and because I don't think anyone is going to be convinced. I also have good relations with and genuine respect for many religious people (of a variety of creeds) who not only do good, but also recognize the good I do and who do not feel any need to show contempt for what I believe. I try to do the same for them. And I dislike those atheists who are insistent that religious belief makes people stupid or unworthy of respect. There are times, like in this thread, where it is worthwhile to make clear where I stand.
I've attributed a number of positions to you in this post, flakfizer, and I may be wrong about some or all of them. If so, I apologize and hope that you will correct me. But my argument about what the views of many christians are and how I and many other non-believers respond to them stands. |
I'm sorry, but this post violates the maximum allowable ratio for parenthetical clarifications per sentence.
Woland, you are hereby banished to Kyobo, where you are to scroll through the multitude of TOEIC and TOEFL books until you figure out how to include additional information in sentences like a man. |
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Woland
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| Qinella wrote: |
I'm sorry, but this post violates the maximum allowable ratio for parenthetical clarifications per sentence.
Woland, you are hereby banished to Kyobo, where you are to scroll through the multitude of TOEIC and TOEFL books until you figure out how to include additional information in sentences like a man. |
Whiner. Why don't you like Korea?
(Well, another comic adolescent post, full of bravado, with self-referential parentheses after it. I just keep getting better and better.)
(And, it improved this thread.)
Countdown to locking: ...7, 6, 5,... |
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Tiberious aka Sparkles
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:24 am Post subject: |
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| Yo, why all you atheists gotta be all holier-than-thou and sh*t? |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:24 am Post subject: |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| Tiberious aka Sparkles wrote: |
| Yo, why all you atheists gotta be all holier-than-thou and sh*t? |
Because, we are trying to convert (well, the athiests atleast). They will then force random abortions and homosexual marriages on you, but don't worry, they have already destroyed the permanancy of marriage by having fought for the right to divorce, so you can still marry a girl later. Ofcourse, that is after they burn down all the churches and have a huge bible bonfire. Think of how many homes that could heat! |
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