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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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 Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Phrases like "their country was invaded" belie one glaring problem: Hezbollah does not speak for Lebanon. |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Phrases like "their country was invaded" belie one glaring problem: Hezbollah does not speak for Lebanon. |
Thats a good point to.
Hezbollah just leeches off Lebanon.
Also Israel withdrew, and as the timelines I posted show, HB still felt to attack Israel. |
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corroonb
Joined: 04 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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This board is a joke. The stuff you guys get away with. Consistent, personal attacks on almost any thread over 2 pages, I'm not suprised the mod intervened. Easy to dish it out when you're anonymous. Regardless of whether a person is correct or not, there is absolutely no excuse for personal insults.
Incidentally I despise the way certain people have been creating an artificial divsion between "left wing" and right wing". These terms are obsolete. Arguments should stand on their own and these stereotypes are the origin of most of the personal insults. Insinuating that people have agendas and are propagandising is very immature and foolish. So far only the racist nuts have been banned but the rest of us should tone the personal attacks right down. I will no longer be posting on this forum due to the level of abuse that accompanies any opinion expressed, I suggest ddeubel (sp) follow suit. It isn't worth the hassle and the personal attacks, usually disguised as/combined with reasonable argument.
BTW having a 4 page argument about a worthless article with no sources whatsoever that is the very epitome of amateur speculation is very childish and absurd. |
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laogaiguk
Joined: 06 Dec 2005
Location: somewhere in Korea
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| corroonb wrote: |
This board is a joke. The stuff you guys get away with. Consistent, personal attacks on almost any thread over 2 pages, I'm not suprised the mod intervened. Easy to dish it out when you're anonymous. Regardless of whether a person is correct or not, there is absolutely no excuse for personal insults.
Incidentally I despise the way certain people have been creating an artificial divsion between "left wing" and right wing". These terms are obsolete. Arguments should stand on their own and these stereotypes are the origin of most of the personal insults. Insinuating that people have agendas and are propagandising is very immature and foolish. So far only the racist nuts have been banned but the rest of us should tone the personal attacks right down. I will no longer be posting on this forum due to the level of abuse that accompanies any opinion expressed, I suggest ddeubel (sp) follow suit. It isn't worth the hassle and the personal attacks, usually disguised as/combined with reasonable argument.
BTW having a 4 page argument about a worthless article with no sources whatsoever that is the very epitome of amateur speculation is very childish and absurd. |
This board is completely about right and left wing. It has nothing to do with discussion. Many people here readily identify with one of these groups, and argue against the exact same people with the same old arguments. And heaven help anyone who sits anywhere between the two extremes. They are literally ostracized (sp?) or just randomly grouped into one of the other groups depending on who they are talking with. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| corroonb wrote: |
| This board is... |
The self-righteousness gets old, and quick. With you, it got old your first day here.
What to you have to contribute to our discussion on Iranian foreign policy and Hezbollah? |
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Nambucaveman
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 7:54 pm Post subject: |
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| corroonb wrote: |
This board is a joke. The stuff you guys get away with. Consistent, personal attacks on almost any thread over 2 pages, I'm not suprised the mod intervened. Easy to dish it out when you're anonymous. Regardless of whether a person is correct or not, there is absolutely no excuse for personal insults.
Incidentally I despise the way certain people have been creating an artificial divsion between "left wing" and right wing". These terms are obsolete. Arguments should stand on their own and these stereotypes are the origin of most of the personal insults. Insinuating that people have agendas and are propagandising is very immature and foolish. So far only the racist nuts have been banned but the rest of us should tone the personal attacks right down. I will no longer be posting on this forum due to the level of abuse that accompanies any opinion expressed, I suggest ddeubel (sp) follow suit. It isn't worth the hassle and the personal attacks, usually disguised as/combined with reasonable argument.
BTW having a 4 page argument about a worthless article with no sources whatsoever that is the very epitome of amateur speculation is very childish and absurd. |
I think corroonb has a good point and I'd like to take a second to respond. The personal attacks are something the mod team have and will continue to address on a case by case basis. For quite awhile the Current Events forum has been more like the trash talk forum. If it hasn't been made clear before, I'll make it clear now. That has come to an end.
Again, I'll repeat what I said before, which is that several people have been banned (either temporary or permanately) for talking trash and personal attacks.
While open debate is welcome, it doesn't mean you have the right to say anything you want. I would encourage everyone (especially those who are old timers) to reread the TOS you agreed to when you signed up. If you can't abide by them, don't use the board.
The racist stuff going back and forth is also going to stop. I don't care if your anti-Jewish, anti-Muslim or anti-Mickey Mouse. It's obvious some people on this board believe they are above the rules and they are being proven wrong by being sent on vacation.
| Quote: |
| This board is completely about right and left wing. It has nothing to do with discussion. Many people here readily identify with one of these groups, and argue against the exact same people with the same old arguments. And heaven help anyone who sits anywhere between the two extremes. They are literally ostracized (sp?) or just randomly grouped into one of the other groups depending on who they are talking with. |
I also have to agree with laogaiguk as well.
In addition, I'm going to caution people about the general tone in terms of being rude. It's not necessary.
NC |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:20 pm Post subject: |
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With all due respect to the mods, I want to say here that I not particularly offended by the so-called "personal attacks", and frankly I don't get the impression that many of the people supposedly being attacked are offended either. They all seem to be coming back, day in and day out, for more of the same.
This is a political discussion board, and as everyone who has ever lived in a democracy knows, political debate sometimes gets rather heated. I don't see much personal attack in terms of referencing peoples private lives or other irrelevant factors; rather the "attacks"(if that's really the right word) seem to stem largely from what people have actually written.
If I write something critical of the War On Terror, and someone responds with "you're just an anti-American, Al Qaeda apologist", I'm basically cool with that, because while it is an attack, it does relate to what I wrote. Now, if he comes on and says "you're just an Al Qaeda apologist who was breastfed 'till he was twelve and probably has an ugly K-Girlfriend", then I'm not so cool with that. But most of the so-called attacks I've seen are closer to the former than to the latter.
Corronb wrote:
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| Incidentally I despise the way certain people have been creating an artificial divsion between "left wing" and right wing". These terms are obsolete. |
I'm sorry, but the idea that left-wing and right-wing are obsolete is simply an opinion, certainly not one that is shared by everyone involved in political discussion. If you don't like hearing peoples opinions labelled in such a way, then I think you have made the correct choice in deciding to stay away from this forum. Not that I personally wanted to see you leave.
| Quote: |
| I suggest ddeubel (sp) follow suit |
I would like to read into the record that ddeubel is the guy who has previously suggested that American conservatives should spend less time reading the Wal-Mart catalogue and spitting tobacco. Not that I was personally offended by those jibes, and I certainly wouldn't say he's the only one who gets down and dirty now and then. Just that I don't know if he's the best guy to hold up as an exmplar of consisently reasoned discussion. And I say this as an enthusiastic reader of his posts.
Anyway, that's my two cents. The mods will do as they see fit, I'm sure. |
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Nambucaveman
Joined: 03 Aug 2006
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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OTOH,
I'd remind you that this board is first and foremost a means of discussion for native teachers, not a political message board. Yes, one of the forums happens to be a place to discuss current events, but that doesn't necessarly imply that everything is about politics.
I would give specific examples, however I don't want to single out any one person. My feeling is the use of idiot is pretty inflammatory. Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you have in insult them.
One of the problems I have is with the way people tend to think the rules don't apply to them. Maybe you don't feel offended, but I'm sure others do.
I believe in both the forum rules and current events rules, there are references to civivilty. My guess is most people have never read them. That's why I encourage people to read the rules they agreed to when they signed up.
NC |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| ddeubel wrote: |
| ...please stop the hizbollah is a terrorist outfit, etc...NOT the case and the state dept has/had even claimed such... |
Huh?
The U.S., British, Canadian, Australian, and other govts like the Netherlands, I believe, have all named Hezbollah a terrorist organization.
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Countries that consider Hezbollah a terrorist organisation: the US, Israel, the UK, Canada, Holland and Australia.
Countries that do not consider them a terrorist organisation, but rather a resistance organisation: Every other country not listed above! Nor does the European Union list Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.
I know that Britain did not list Hezbollah as a terrorist organisation up until 2005 - but recently it became expedient to make adjustments to that status for political convenience. |
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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ddeubel wrote: |
| There is a big double standard here. |
I think that's what has fascinated me for years about the reportage of Middle East conflict. The double standard applied is quite extraordinary.
In this case (Hizbollah vs Israel), a country that has regularly invaded and terrorised its neighbour is seen as the poor aggreived victim, while a popular resistance group that arose from a population that had suffered horribly under the occupation of that country (and its proxy haddist army), and so fought back in order to gain its freedom, is seen as the epitomy of evil itself. Rather curious. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:31 am Post subject: |
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If one finds themselves refering to a view as right or left or con or lib. Take a few seconds to think about how else to support or dispute the merit.
People do this everyday instead saying F~ck every other word, one uses adjectives and adverds in creative ways to express themselves creatively.
Using ones vocabulary, a grand idea.
Also avoid you and they be more general one and people or someone and some people.
If this helps.
cbc |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| Gopher wrote: |
| ddeubel wrote: |
| ...please stop the hizbollah is a terrorist outfit, etc...NOT the case and the state dept has/had even claimed such... |
Huh?
The U.S., British, Canadian, Australian, and other govts like the Netherlands, I believe, have all named Hezbollah a terrorist organization.
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Countries that consider Hezbollah a terrorist organisation: the US, Israel, the UK, Canada, Holland and Australia.
Countries that do not consider them a terrorist organisation, but rather a resistance organisation: Every other country not listed above! Nor does the European Union list Hezbollah as a terrorist organization.
I know that Britain did not list Hezbollah as a terrorist organisation up until 2005 - but recently it became expedient to make adjustments to that status for political convenience. |
Big Bird, Israel withdrew from Lebanon yet Hezbollah continued to attack Israel.
SO how are they a resistance organization when the very region in question was withdrawn from? ALso now that there goal is the destruction of Israel?
THERE NOT. They are TERRORISTS.
Last edited by NAVFC on Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:22 am; edited 1 time in total |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:21 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
| ddeubel wrote: |
| There is a big double standard here. |
I think that's what has fascinated me for years about the reportage of Middle East conflict. The double standard applied is quite extraordinary.
In this case (Hizbollah vs Israel), a country that has regularly invaded and terrorised its neighbour is seen as the poor aggreived victim, while a popular resistance group that arose from a population that had suffered horribly under the occupation of that country (and its proxy haddist army), and so fought back in order to gain its freedom, is seen as the epitomy of evil itself. Rather curious. |
First off, the invasion you refer to, Lebanon brought on itself both times.
The first time is when Lebanon shelled Israeli cities in the 1980s in response to bombing of PLO ammo depots which was in response to the asssassination of a Israeli official by the PLO. So dont give me that "suffering people" bull crap.
I have no empathy for any people who claim to have suffered by Israel. They sat and watched as their government and there fellow peoples attacked Israel, sending or supporting terrorism and sicide bombers against the Israeli people. Then they want to cry for there dead, when Israel strikes back at them?
There tears dont move me. Everything that was done, they brought on themselves. Especially since 2000 when israel withdrew and Hezbollah took on a new mission: The destruction of Israel.
If Lebanon didn't want problems, they should have never shelled Israeli cities in the 80s, and shoul not have allowed a state to exist within a state so to speak since Hezbollah pretty mucch has autonomous rule of Southern Lebanon.
Every invasion or military strike Israel has gone on was prcluded by someone striking or invading it. I don't know why so many of you wish to leave that out.
It isnt like Israel woke up one day and the prime minister said "I feel like bombing somebody" and just started attacking Arabs.
However the Arabs, seeing Israel as the Jewish enemy, hav e been tryign to destroy Israel eevr since her recreation in 1948.
At first Arab army after Arabarmy tried to destroy her, but they failed. Then after seeing no Arab nation could militarily defeat Israel, they switched to terrorist tactics. Bombings..histage taking..suicide bombing.
They have been doing that ever since.
Israel IS the victim.
Hizbollah are terrrorists. Not freedom fighters.
Freedom fighters fight those who opress them. Hezbollah sends rockets in discrimantely into Israeli cities, deliberately targetting civilians.
World War II was full of REAL freedom fighters, people who fought the NAZIS to gain their freedom. They didnt go around indiscrimatenly killing German people.
These "freedom fighters" as you put them deny Israel's right to exist. Such as Hamaz, Hezbollah all want Israel gone. the World War II freedom fighters didn't deny the German right to exist, they just wanted their nations freed and Hitler dealt with.
SO don't compare Hezbollah o the true freedom fighters. Hezbollah are ruthless terrorists. They celebrated everytime one of their attacks yielded civilian deaths, even when it was women or children. While Israel solemnly apologized every time a military operation killed civilians. |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:42 am Post subject: |
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No matter who shoots in the middle east it is always in reponse...
Ad infinitum
cbc |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Ddeubel: it's not just the assertion that I question, but the arrogance of your articulation.
Here it is again, in case you forgot...
| ddeubel wrote: |
| ...fact, the U.S. state dept looooong ago took Hizbollah off its list of terrorist organizations. Look it up, i don't have the time to educate you... |
I cited State's current listing of foreign terrorist organizations and I also cited a NewsHour doc. Both show that the U.S. govt considers Hezbollah a terrorist organization.
You assert that the govt changed this "looooong ago."
Show me. |
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