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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| We've talked about this before Gord. Read the posts carefully, before making comments. Don't keep on digging when you're in a hole. |
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crazylemongirl
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Location: almost there...
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:40 am Post subject: |
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Catalina sorry to hear about the news, but it may turn out to be a blessing in disguise.
Best wishes,
CLG |
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kylehawkins2000
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:09 am Post subject: |
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Catalina,
If you have the time and ability I hope you will stay in Korea long enough to make the hogwan feel the legal repurcussions of their actions. Make them pay what they owe you....otherwise they're bound to just take advantage of some other unsuspecting foreigner.... |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Catalina wrote: |
| Oh come on Gord - I need advice here - not you playing self-apointed Devil's advocate. |
You want advice? Oh, I can give you advice. But when you asking for advice when you aren't giving the whole story, it won't really help much.
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| Except when I said "it was a shouting match" and "I stood my ground". Did you forget to read that part - or was it an omission of convenience for the sake of your argument? And, while I thank you greatly for the compliment, I never suggested that I was Ghandi. |
"Stood my ground" means you just didn't back down. It doesn't mean that you joined into the melee.
True, you did say "it was a shouting match", but all around it you described how you calmly explained everything while your director was hell bent on simply yelling for the sake of yelling. It looks as though you simply used the phrase wrong.
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GORD - Corporal wrote that, not me. Come on Gord - put a little effort in here - at least try to quote the correct source.. |
Big stretch to get Corporal to disagree with me on something...
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| Why are you so angry with this thread? |
Not angry, just pointing out the discrepancies in your claims.
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Frankly, I was surprised and hurt at your vitriolic reactions. Your reponses are really out of line with my postings. Are your working too much? Is it time for a vacation? Too much time in Korea? Have your
turned into the ugly foreigner? |
Let's recap what really happened at your job.
You decided to double dip on the time schedule. You though you would do report cards in class when you should have been teaching. I suspect that you have been warned before to get such a reaction.
Anyway, rather than say "well, yes, I was wrong" you in turn took to the offensive. Not only did you make a mistake, now you're attacking someone for calling you on your mistake.
Why it fell into complete disarray, who the hell knows. You tell us that you were calm and collective and stuck to the point. Unlikely if the reaction you claimed to have been getting was more yelling.
Regardless, this all descended from your making a mistake that you refused to accept responsability for.
But rather than come clean with the truth, you whip up a fairytale version that paints you in a white light. Now you want us to tell you what to tell the nice folks at Immigration so you can stay in the country and get some other nice perks.
Should you have been yelled at? Probably not. Yelling just tends to cause situations to descend into chaos.
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| Come on Gord - you can tell me - or even tell all of us. I have been very fortunate to have really positive and supportive reponses to my posts on this board. For the most part people in this community are really friendly and they do seek to help. |
Go back, apologize. Seriously. But make it clear that because of all that you've done, you think it's best that you two part ways. Request a letter of release in exchange for demanding a month's salary.
Yes, you could scream bloody murder with a release letter and demand a month's salary, but there is no guarantee you would ever get either of them.
With the apology in hand and the waving of the money owed, the director will be much more willing to do something for you, such as signing a letter of release.
If she agrees, get her to whip one up and get on your way. If she disagrees, head to Immigration and explain how you screwed up but you don't feel that it was to the level you should have been yelled at to that degree. Explain that you tried to get a letter of release and you didn't push for the severence pay, and they are more likely to agree with your plight and grant you a release.
Your current course of conflict can only end in failure.
Then with you being in the clear, you can find another job. Since you are already in Korea with experience, you can look at schools beforehand and negociate for a higher wage or fewer working hours.
Thus are the instructions to take the industrial grade lemons you have created and turn them into sweet, sweet lemonade.
P.S. With a new job, might want to lay off the double dipping concept. |
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bourquetheman
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Suwon
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:16 am Post subject: The same sh#t |
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Gord you write the same crap every time, it must get boring being a pri#k. I remember you basically saying the same thing to that girl from Newfoundland who was getting screwed around with the plane ticket. Can't you EVER try and see the teacher's side of things and not always jump the school's defence? Do you think that there are not schools out there that shaft the teachers? I've been here six years and I can tell you that there are, I'm not saying all but they exist. Instead of trying to nitpick every damn thing she writes (and I never thought she hadn't yelled, you have to learn to read between the lines) try and give some helpful insights instead of trying to egg her into an argument.
Maybe you enjoy causing chaos and ill will on this board, maybe it's your only form of entertainment over here, I don't know. If that is the case I really feel sorry for you and hope you find some other form of social activity. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:33 am Post subject: |
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Who's jumping to the school's defense? I'm saying that people should just tell the truth and learn from mistakes. That's all.
If we flashback to the airline ticket thread, you'll remember that I said to sit down, talk, and negociate if there is a problem. Compared to the masses of people screaming how the school was trying to eightball her and whatnot.
In the end, MY SOLUTION OF SIMPLY SITTING DOWN AND TALKING TO THE SCHOOL WORKED. If you want to complain about my solutions, you might want to give an example where my suggested solution failed. 
As for this thread, I'm calling it for what it is. Teacher double dipped on the schedule and got caught. She attacked instead of apologizing, and things escalated until she lost her job. Then Cataline wrote up a story that "was based on a true event" that painted her in a good light with the hope that we would tell her the magic words Immigration needs to hear so that she can get a shiny pot of gold with her every wish contained within.
Asking people to tell the truth is not an attack.
Plus you'll note my advice I gave is quite useful and I would dare to suggest is the best answer she can get. |
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The Great Wall of Whiner
Joined: 24 Jan 2003
Location: Middle Land
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 7:56 am Post subject: |
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Gord wrote:
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| Plus you'll note my advice I gave is quite useful and I would dare to suggest is the best answer she can get. |
Come on guys! He's got you there! He DID give good advice originally.... |
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Walter Mitty
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Location: Tokyo! ^.^
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| As for this thread, I'm calling it for what it is. Teacher double dipped on the schedule and got caught. |
I don't see why this is even an issue. How is it "double dipping" if she's doing school business during classtime? If the students are occupied with a word search or worksheet, why not make good use of her time? Sitting there doing nothing isn't going to benefit anybody. The students are busy and they don't need her attention. If one of them had a question, I sincerely doubt she'd tell them not to bother her. And it's not like she was reading the newspaper or something.
I've done report cards or evaluation forms in class before and it's never presented a problem. I see it as making good use of one's time. At my first hagwon it was S.O.P. to make evaluation day a "game day" and let the kids play during class so we could do their evaluations during time we were getting paid for. |
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bourquetheman
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Location: Suwon
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 8:23 am Post subject: A pat on the back... |
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You really sound like you're proud of yourself for giving such great "advice" if you can call it that. Yes Gord we should all bow down to you and thank the powers that be that you're on this board, where would we be without you? I'd really like to see you stand there and be screamed at by a director and calmly apologize even if you thought you were in the wrong. The director would have to make the first move by apologizing for losing her cool, THEN I could admit my fault. There is no call for the treatment that some directors get off with, even as you said earlier, (albeit quite offhandly) that yelling doesn't solve anything.
My point is you always have this "righteous attitude" that comes across as being more high and mighty than the rest of us on this board and I personally am sick of it. Just once I'd like you to say something to the effect "Geez, yeah that was uncalled for and you got shafted" To date I've NEVER heard you say anything like that, the best you can do is say "Yelling is uncalled for and solves nothing" (or something to that effect)
Some of the lyrics to "That's All" by Genesis really make me think of you: "You could see day and I'd see night, tell me it's black when you know that it's white, always the same it's just a shame, THAT'S ALL"
Fits you to a "t" my friend.............................chow |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 9:28 am Post subject: Re: A pat on the back... |
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| bourquetheman wrote: |
| You really sound like you're proud of yourself for giving such great "advice" if you can call it that. Yes Gord we should all bow down to you and thank the powers that be that you're on this board, where would we be without you? |
Apology accepted.
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| I'd really like to see you stand there and be screamed at by a director and calmly apologize even if you thought you were in the wrong. The director would have to make the first move by apologizing for losing her cool, THEN I could admit my fault. There is no call for the treatment that some directors get off with, even as you said earlier, (albeit quite offhandly) that yelling doesn't solve anything. |
My first job shortly after I arrived in Korea I was involved in a discussion with the school director. He mentioned that when he was in the military he was given a liason post with the U.S. military, and that he hated it because of all the bad and evil things the American military did.
I knew jack about about Korea at this point other than some general information I picked up in reading in a book on the plane, so I was interested in what he had to say.
Sadly, he became quite emotional over the whole thing and started demanding my opinion on things I knew nothing about. Whoa, time out. I'm excusing myself from the room.
I was talking to another teacher about an adult class coming up that night, and the director's wife whose English is very poor thinks I'm talking trash about the family because their family name is "Min", and "min" is a somewhat common syllable in English, especially when talking about the number of minutes in a class with the minimum level of mints to give away.
So when I return to the staff room, hell breaks loose. I'm a horrible person for talking behind his back and he hates all foreigners and blah blah blah. I just said "Ok, I just did not hear that. I'll be back in an hour." and walked out.
You can't have an argument if you aren't there to be argued to. Sure, I could have held the line and absolutely dominated him in a debate of insults. I could have created the finest grandstanding event ever seen in Korean ESL history to which you would now be whispering stories to new teachers about my glorious battles. While it would have been impressive from a retold story point of view, it's not so useful in helping one remain employed.
The whole thing blew over and eventually they came to my apartment to apologize after the final class.
There, happy enough story for you?
Or another time I did a short term stunt at a school until their new teacher arrived. But how I teach and what the school wanted weren't complimentary as I'm very vocal and active, and they wanted a composed, traditional teaching setting. Sure, I could have held the line and rambled on about how I'm a super teacher spoken of in ESL legend, but instead I simply apologized that I wasn't what they wanted and arranged to have someone else take over the classes. I didn't need to apologize, but I did and I moved on.
For a forum overrun with people rambling on about how Korean's never admit they are wrong and never apologize, a number of people here need to invest in a mirror. And in Korea, mirrors are cheap and everywhere.
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| My point is you always have this "righteous attitude" that comes across as being more high and mighty than the rest of us on this board and I personally am sick of it. |
I am heavily tempted to say "I'll stop acting better than you when I stop being better than you", but for now I'll simply comment on how it's been raining for days on end.
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| Just once I'd like you to say something to the effect "Geez, yeah that was uncalled for and you got shafted" To date I've NEVER heard you say anything like that, the best you can do is say "Yelling is uncalled for and solves nothing" (or something to that effect) |
I really dislike reading threads full of posts that offer nothing to the thread. This isn't a chatroom. I don't want to read one message of content and then nine postings of "ya, I feel for you" "oh man" "That wasn't nice" and so forth without some actual content.
Thus if I have no content to add, I'll simply not post. Which is why you find my posts so exciting. You know I always have something to say. Agree or disagree, you know that I'm 100% signal.
While you accuse me of being a heartless bastard, I know deep down inside I have done more to help more people than you ever will, but I don't have this great fascination with having to post my every exploit on the forum. I don't post every time I have someone stay over at my place because they ended up homeless for a couple days. I don't talk about how I lend money to people who can't afford food. I don't go on about a lot of things that should be reserved for a chatroom.
And that is something I won't apologize for. |
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thegadfly
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Being the devil's advocate is a thankless but necessary job. One can do it by simply contradicting everything one hears, but that is rarely as useful as when a person brings up telling questions or examines the foundation of certain assumptions....
People get defensive when they are asked to support their positions -- fact of life. However, if one is on solid ground, one CAN usually support that position -- it is when things are not so clear cut that people start the personal attacks and flaming.
Gord has brought useful observations to the threads in which I have seen him participate -- and he has asked salient questions and given reasoned answers and advice. He may not have always been tactful and polite, but he is not alone in that regard.
You do not need to thank him or praise him, worship him and extol his virtues -- neither do you need to vilify him and try to bully him into silence. I may not agree with all of what he says, but I admire the fact that he thinks things through and tries to see all sides of an issue. When he feels a piece is missing, he asks for that piece, and when presented with a reasoned argument, he will consider it for what it is, on its own merits, without an ad hominem attack because he does not like the source.
Not a lot of people are able to do the same.
The other day, I was walking along the sidewalk near my house and I saw an old lady across the street walking her dog. She had just passed in front of the gas station, and was directly across the road from me. I ran across the road and tackled her. I knocked her down, rolled her in the mud, grabbing handfuls to rub over her face and into her hair. I pulled off my jacket and beat her with it, rolling her over in the mud a few more times for good measure.
I was hailed as a hero.
It should be obvious that I left something out of that story -- the omission is glaring...a small piece of information is all that is necessary to transform confusion to understanding of what is being presented. I know what I left out -- I just didn't give it to you -- and you are trying to react based on ONLY what you know...and so it does not make sense. You should ask for clarification or point out things that do not make sense about this...which is what Gord often does.
Some moron was smoking while pumping gas. The pump exploded and the lady was doused in burning fuel.
One little detail turns things around. Either include all those details or expect some hard questions.... |
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Walter Mitty
Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Location: Tokyo! ^.^
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:19 pm Post subject: Re: A pat on the back... |
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| Gord wrote: |
| I am heavily tempted to say "I'll stop acting better than you when I stop being better than you", but for now I'll simply comment on how it's been raining for days on end. |
Ah, the time-honored internet tradition - the "non-insult, insult." That's like saying to somebody, "if I weren't taking the high road here, I'd call you an a-hole." You've effectively said what you're claiming you don't want to say.
If you want to insult somebody, just come right out and do it. Leave the bad pseudo-philosophical statements to David Carradine. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: A pat on the back... |
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| Walter Mitty wrote: |
| Ah, the time-honored internet tradition - the "non-insult, insult." That's like saying to somebody, "if I weren't taking the high road here, I'd call you an a-hole." You've effectively said what you're claiming you don't want to say. |
Would you like me to explain the joke to you?
You see, the reply in that section was to the claim that I am rightous and view myself as being better than others. Thus I've taken a reply, the "I'll stop being..." reply which fits perfectly into the personallity I'm accused of having, and suggest I had prepared it to be posted.
Then I step it up by saying I'm so far above the person, I don't even have to say that but instead will comment on the weather, further fitting into the "I'm am better" character I was accused of having.
Allow me to impress upon you my ASCII art.
-----# <- The joke
(zing)
O <- You
Edit: My ASCII art is limited by this forum not allowing unlimited spacing, so to express my unlimited talent, I drew you a picture.
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steroidmaximus
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Location: GangWon-Do
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry to hear about your situation Catalina. I wouldn't go back.
Gord did however give some useful advice. Because of his approach however, he draws to him the wrath and ire of many posters. But his advice is still, at times, sound. The situation could have been handled differently. By both parties.
The point I would raise has to do with what sparked the confrontation in the first place: doing your prep and grading during class time. Yes, we all do our extra work in class when the students are working. But you aren't actually teaching at that point. The director did have a valid excuse for approaching you, but not for screaming, I'll grant that. But you were not actually teaching or helping the students at the time.
You're better off leaving that nut house. But next time diplomacy and tact, and being more surreptitious of when and where you do your extra work (or reading a book, or making your grocery list, or whatever) might avoid a scene from which you may not emerge as the victor. |
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Skarp
Joined: 22 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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Writing reports or marking/doing admin in class is wrong and not fair to the students.
Making teachers work overtime and then not paying them is worse though.
Shouting at people, especially in front of colleagues, students or parents is also extremely rude/bad management.
I am coming to Korea soon. I hope I can find a job where I can do good work and not have to fight battles every step of the way.
Someone probably has already posted on dealing with Korean directors. Can anyone direct me to any good threads?
Skarp |
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