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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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 Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:45 am Post subject: |
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yeah i attended a top school. Really enjoyed it. the problem with these lists is as I have stated before about other comparisons you really cant compare a nation of 315 million people with a nation of 30 million. The U.S. also includes about 12 million illegals and no other nation has that problem.
We are number one in a lot of categoris and that says something.
perhaps since india is a democracy that is the nation the U.S. should be compared to.
personally i think these list are bogus, notice there is not much mention of methodology, and that is the key to this type of survey.
It seems so many want to compare apples and oranges and really only those with severe inferiority complexes worry too much about these things. |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
yeah i attended a top school. Really enjoyed it. the problem with these lists is as I have stated before about other comparisons you really cant compare a nation of 315 million people with a nation of 30 million. The U.S. also includes about 12 million illegals and no other nation has that problem.
We are number one in a lot of categoris and that says something.
perhaps since india is a democracy that is the nation the U.S. should be compared to.
personally i think these list are bogus, notice there is not much mention of methodology, and that is the key to this type of survey.
It seems so many want to compare apples and oranges and really only those with severe inferiority complexes worry too much about these things. |
My question was directed to visitorq, which means either of two things: 1) you lack reading skills and therefore probably didn't attend a top school as you claim or 2) you are also visitorq and got your sock puppets confused. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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sorry. Must be reading skills in decline.
So you went to school in the U.S. Interesting. |
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visitorq
Joined: 11 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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| 12ax7 wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| Seems like a excuse to me. Whatever happened to "USA #1"? |
The US is "#1" in many cases - just not "on average" (though often still near the top). But if you want to find the best hospitals and schools/universities in the world (as in 'top ranking') then most are in fact in the US.
And before you counter with: "but the average is all that matters since only rich people can afford the best", I'll simply state that that's your opinion. The case can certainly be made either way. |
Sure, many are in the US...but what percentage of the American population attends these schools? Heck, did you attend a top ranked school?
I did. |
Pretty sure I addressed this preemptively in my last post.
As for anecdotal claims to have to attended this school or that, I'm not that interested (since you're just some random anonymous person on the internet). |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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| 12ax7 wrote: |
| visitorq wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
| Seems like a excuse to me. Whatever happened to "USA #1"? |
The US is "#1" in many cases - just not "on average" (though often still near the top). But if you want to find the best hospitals and schools/universities in the world (as in 'top ranking') then most are in fact in the US.
And before you counter with: "but the average is all that matters since only rich people can afford the best", I'll simply state that that's your opinion. The case can certainly be made either way. |
Sure, many are in the US...but what percentage of the American population attends these schools? Heck, did you attend a top ranked school?
I did. |
It really doesn't matter what % of Americans go to the top 50, 100, etc schools. Our universities in general are quite good, that's the fact of the matter. Is your average American university better than your average Canadian one? Eh, probably not, but it isn't worse either.
I realize this is purely anecdotal, but oh well: I've had over 100 couch surfers in the past couple years. About a 1/3 of them are foreign college students who have spent a semester or two here in the States. All of them have raved about their classroom experience and said most of their classes were more engaging and interesting here than back home (the EU or Korea for nearly all of them).
Anecdote aside, just look at the world rankings, the USA by far has the most, including many that are affordable and public (such as most of the UCs, U of Michigan, UNC-Chapel Hill, U. Virginia, etc).
Honestly, if you can't get an affordable, quality higher education in the USA, you're doing something wrong or frankly don't have sufficient intelligence. And you can do so without taking on massive student debt. It's become more of a challenge since the Great Recession, but it is still do-able.
As for hospitals, yeah, that's a mess but I've already ranted and bitched about that enough. |
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Titus
Joined: 19 May 2012
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| BB, you don't need to defend your country to him. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
Honestly, if you can't get an affordable, quality higher education in the USA, you're doing something wrong or frankly don't have sufficient intelligence. And you can do so without taking on massive student debt. It's become more of a challenge since the Great Recession, but it is still do-able. |
Hold on a moment there. Yes, it is true that as individuals, we can achieve this if we employ a degree of cleverness and resourcefulness. But collectively, we most certainly cannot: American students end up with massive student debt as a intentionally-designed function of the system, not because they're all atypically stupid. Even those who get grants, scholarships, or are taking advantage of in-state university discounts are still paying the price for their education, they're just using someone else's generously-given money to achieve it, which makes it affordable to you personally, but not necessarily to society collectively.
American universities are overall reasonable in terms of quality, but the financing system underlying them is a complete mess. |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
Anecdote aside, just look at the world rankings, the USA by far has the most, including many that are affordable and public (such as most of the UCs, U of Michigan, UNC-Chapel Hill, U. Virginia, etc). |
What you don't mention is that there are over 5000 universities and colleges in the US, making it only second to India which has a population of over a billion. So, really, the fact that some of those thousands upon thousands of schools are well ranked shouldn't be a surprise to anyone given how much money some of them have been endowed and how much they charge in tuition.
Oh, and research has shown that in the US students of higher socio economic status are 1.55 times more likely to persist with their education than those of lower socio economic status. Moreover, only 52% of students of lower socio economic status who qualify for university enroll within two years of graduation as opposed to 88% of those from higher socio economic status. So, yeah, clearly university education is not as easily accessible in the US as you would want us to believe.
Really, what's next? You're going to claim that the US is a social democracy? |
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No_hite_pls
Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Location: Don't hate me because I'm right
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| 12ax7 wrote: |
Oh, and research has shown that in the US students of higher socio economic status are 1.55 times more likely to persist with their education than those of lower socio economic status. Moreover, only 52% of students of lower socio economic status who qualify for university enroll within two years of graduation as opposed to 88% of those from higher socio economic status. So, yeah, clearly university education is not as easily accessible in the US as you would want us to believe.
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Those stats are not that bad for the lower socio economic classes. |
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rollo
Joined: 10 May 2006
Location: China
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:56 am Post subject: |
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!2ax7, you do know that tuition and books are paid for by the Federal government for all but the higher income bracket students in the U.S. In lower socio-economic strata there may be many reasons to not pursue a degree.
As far as money meaning a good university next you will explain that speed, strength and good coordination are needed to be a good athelete.
The U.S. spends a higher percentage of income on higher education than any other country.
There is a good reason that the U.S. leads the world in technology, innovation, and there is a good reason that of the worlds top 200 universities the U.S. has 170 of them. We spend the money
Please quit grasping at straws to feed some inferiority complex where the U.s is concerned. It makes you look weak and insecure.
Enjoy what you have . Maybe someday you will be able to immigrate to the U.S.!!! |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:56 am Post subject: |
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| rollo wrote: |
There is a good reason that the U.S. leads the world in technology, innovation, and there is a good reason that of the worlds top 200 universities the U.S. has 170 of them. We spend the money |
...on people who were educated outside of the US. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:06 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
Honestly, if you can't get an affordable, quality higher education in the USA, you're doing something wrong or frankly don't have sufficient intelligence. And you can do so without taking on massive student debt. It's become more of a challenge since the Great Recession, but it is still do-able. |
Hold on a moment there. Yes, it is true that as individuals, we can achieve this if we employ a degree of cleverness and resourcefulness. But collectively, we most certainly cannot: American students end up with massive student debt as a intentionally-designed function of the system, not because they're all atypically stupid. Even those who get grants, scholarships, or are taking advantage of in-state university discounts are still paying the price for their education, they're just using someone else's generously-given money to achieve it, which makes it affordable to you personally, but not necessarily to society collectively.
American universities are overall reasonable in terms of quality, but the financing system underlying them is a complete mess. |
To clarify: I did not mean those who have massive student debt have below average intelligence. I was referring to those who would struggle to get a decent education via public higher education institutions. Struggle in the classroom sense, not financially speaking.That is, the tools and resources are quite accessible. I have a number of friends who went to community college for 2 years, then got their degrees at well-known univerisites (such as UCB, UT). Their student debt was minimal and I'd say the education they received was comparable to a full 4 years at most universities.
And I wouldn't say the financing system is a complete mess. What I think is essential is educating students about that financing and the potential dangers of taking on so much debt. A lot of students end up with tons of debt because they just didn't know what they were getting themselves into and there was no one to warn them. I also think the for-profit college sector is disgusting.
You mention societal cost. Well isn't the point for in-state tuition is it will help produce a productive, educated member of society who will eventually contribute more than he or she received? The whole justification for it is the long-term benefit outweighs the short-term cost. Do you believe that to not be the case?
Basically my point is: getting a good education without taking on a lot of student debt is quite possible. I would also agree with you- to some degree- that the financing system needs to be reformed and changed. I think more regulations would be useful, as would be more education on financing one's schooling. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| 12ax7 wrote: |
Oh, and research has shown that in the US students of higher socio economic status are 1.55 times more likely to persist with their education than those of lower socio economic status. Moreover, only 52% of students of lower socio economic status who qualify for university enroll within two years of graduation as opposed to 88% of those from higher socio economic status. So, yeah, clearly university education is not as easily accessible in the US as you would want us to believe.
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Ok, you might want to post a link to your stat. Regardless, there are a million reasons why a person might not go to university. Even if your stat is accurate, that doesn't disprove what I said whatsoever.
| rollo wrote: |
| !2ax7, you do know that tuition and books are paid for by the Federal government for all but the higher income bracket students in the U.S. In lower socio-economic strata there may be many reasons to not pursue a degree. |
Uh what? No it doesn't. Is there some fed government program I'm not aware of?? I know some states have that type of financial assistance, but I don't think the federal government does anything like that. There are pell grants, but the most you can get a year is $5,500. |
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12ax7
Joined: 07 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
Oh, and research has shown that in the US students of higher socio economic status are 1.55 times more likely to persist with their education than those of lower socio economic status. Moreover, only 52% of students of lower socio economic status who qualify for university enroll within two years of graduation as opposed to 88% of those from higher socio economic status. So, yeah, clearly university education is not as easily accessible in the US as you would want us to believe.
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Ok, you might want to post a link to your stat. Regardless, there are a million reasons why a person might not go to university. Even if your stat is accurate, that doesn't disprove what I said whatsoever.
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Don't you know that when someone doesn't bother to post a link the source is easy to find? Look it up. Wikipedia. Secondary education in the United States, or something like that.
Doesn't disprove what you said? Sure, if you say so. The fact remains that the number of students who attend the universities you so proudly mention as an example of the supposed superiority of the American educational system is only a drop in the bucket when you consider the total number of people who attend second and third tier schools in the US and those who can't afford or can't qualify to attend higher education. That's why the average person isn't as marginal as you would want us to believe. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:06 am Post subject: |
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| 12ax7 wrote: |
| bucheon bum wrote: |
| 12ax7 wrote: |
Oh, and research has shown that in the US students of higher socio economic status are 1.55 times more likely to persist with their education than those of lower socio economic status. Moreover, only 52% of students of lower socio economic status who qualify for university enroll within two years of graduation as opposed to 88% of those from higher socio economic status. So, yeah, clearly university education is not as easily accessible in the US as you would want us to believe.
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Ok, you might want to post a link to your stat. Regardless, there are a million reasons why a person might not go to university. Even if your stat is accurate, that doesn't disprove what I said whatsoever.
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Don't you know that when someone doesn't bother to post a link the source is easy to find? Look it up. Wikipedia. Secondary education in the United States, or something like that. |
Don't you know how to form a proper argument? That one provides a source when providing a fact such as the one you gave? Oh, silly question since you've proven over and over on this thread that you can't make one. And if it is so easy to find, why not be kind enough to get that link for us all? Since you supposedly found it originally, you should know how to get it immediately- correct?
| Quote: |
| Doesn't disprove what you said? Sure, if you say so. The fact remains that the number of students who attend the universities you so proudly mention as an example of the supposed superiority of the American educational system is only a drop in the bucket when you consider the total number of people who attend second and third tier schools in the US and those who can't afford or can't qualify to attend higher education. That's why the average person isn't as marginal as you would want us to believe. |
Dude, once again you prove you have poor reading skills since I never said anything about American superiority and in fact said your average US college is probably comparable to an average Canadian one. I'm done arguing with you since you are quite determined to bash the USA as much as you can.
Cheers. |
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