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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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 Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 5:30 pm Post subject: Flare-up in EU-US air trade row |
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So, both sides squaring up. Both might have some right on their side.
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| The EU has revived a case against US state aid to Boeing at the World Trade Organisation (WTO), 24 hours after the US did the same against Airbus. |
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The Europeans say that Boeing receives illegal subsidies in the form of military contracts and tax breaks.
The US, meanwhile, accuses the EU of having funded Airbus's latest A380 super-jumbo project with generous subsidies.
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How does this sit with the "Free Trade" debate elsewhere? |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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The US has the stronger case.
Boeing agreed to build its Jets in a certain location for tax breaks while Airbus just got tax breaks to compete with Boeing. Airbus doesn't like the fact that Boeing get money from the US for for R&D for its defense business and then later applies what they learned there to civilian aircraft. |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Tue May 31, 2005 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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Personally, I don't care. If there were no competition, we'd be sitting in the same 747s from now until 2100.
I'm no fan of the EU or how Airbus is being propped-up by multiple governments (as opposed to the US propping up its own entity by purchasing defense planes locally), however I like the new technology in the new airbus planes. They're sweet to fly in. This is forcing Boeing to get off of their stodgy asses and do something to improve comfort, gas mileage, and the planes in general.
Boeing is not going away. If they do, another company with less overhead will be formed -- and it could compete with Airbus more easily.
For now, as an air-traveller, I can only win. |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:49 am Post subject: |
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A delay announced but an interesting list of buyers so far for the 380 ...
Emirates: 43 aircraft
Lufthansa: 15
Qantas: 12
Air France: 10
Singapore Airlines: 10
Fedex: 10
International Lease Finance: 10
MAS: 6
Thai Airways: 6
Virgin Atlantic: 6
Korean Airlines: 5
Etihad Airways: 4
Qatar Airways: 2
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4598779.stm |
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Derrek
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:20 am Post subject: |
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"The A380 project is running vastly over budget. In December, Airbus admitted the plane's development would cost an extra 1.45bn euros (£1bn; $1.9bn), bringing the overall cost to about 12bn euros.
Airbus has received billions of euros in 'launch aid' - loans to cover a third of the development costs - for the A380 from European governments, and the company insists it will still make a 20% return on its investment.
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Wangja wrote: |
A delay announced but an interesting list of buyers so far for the 380 ...
Emirates: 43 aircraft
Lufthansa: 15
Qantas: 12
Air France: 10
Singapore Airlines: 10
Fedex: 10
International Lease Finance: 10
MAS: 6
Thai Airways: 6
Virgin Atlantic: 6
Korean Airlines: 5
Etihad Airways: 4
Qatar Airways: 2
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4598779.stm |
they will need about 800 -900 orders for them to break even. |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Derrek wrote: |
"The A380 project is running vastly over budget. In December, Airbus admitted the plane's development would cost an extra 1.45bn euros (£1bn; $1.9bn), bringing the overall cost to about 12bn euros.
Airbus has received billions of euros in 'launch aid' - loans to cover a third of the development costs - for the A380 from European governments, and the company insists it will still make a 20% return on its investment.
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Yes, that quote was from the BBC - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4482105.stm |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Wangja wrote: |
A delay announced but an interesting list of buyers so far for the 380 ...
Emirates: 43 aircraft
Lufthansa: 15
Qantas: 12
Air France: 10
Singapore Airlines: 10
Fedex: 10
International Lease Finance: 10
MAS: 6
Thai Airways: 6
Virgin Atlantic: 6
Korean Airlines: 5
Etihad Airways: 4
Qatar Airways: 2
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4598779.stm |
they will need about 800 -900 orders for them to break even. |
No, less than that probably. According to the same article above, break even kicks in at 250 sales.
A380 IN FIGURES
Length: 73m
Wingspan: 79.8m
Height: 24.1m
Typical capacity: 555
Max capacity: 853
Engines: 4
Max range: 15,000km
Cruising speed: 0.85 mach
List price: $285m
Orders so far: 154 ($44bn at list prices)
Orders to break even: 250 ($71bn at list prices) |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Sorry my figure i s off but they are going to need a few more than 250 to break even because they are selling the A380 at a deep discount. |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 2:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee wrote: |
| Sorry my figure i s off but they are going to need a few more than 250 to break even because they are selling the A380 at a deep discount. |
Yes, you are probably right about the discount (from list price). But then I guess Boeing are discounting too.
Ultimately, the benefit of the supoort and discounts is cheaper aircraft for the travelling public - on both sides of the Atlantic.
BTW, I am not pro-subsidies and agriculture subsidies need close investigation world-wide, especially EU and US. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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Friday, June 03, 2005, 12:00 A.M. Pacific
Editorial
The strong U.S. case against Airbus
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America has finally taken Europe to the World Trade Organization over "launch aid" to Airbus. Europe says it has a beef just as strong over our state's tax cuts for Boeing. Fine. File your complaint. Let the WTO say who has the firmer grasp of the facts.
Americans have argued about the value of the WTO for years. Let's see how it handles this. The essence of the U.S. case is that local tax breaks are available to both companies, and so are military contracts. They cancel each other out. The thumb on the scale is launch aid — the practice of European governments providing up-front, taxpayer cash for Airbus to develop new airplanes.
A new airplane is a huge risk. It was often said Boeing "bet the company" on each of its major aircraft. A third of a century ago, after its bet on the 747, Boeing — and Seattle — almost turned out the lights. An experience like that reminds everyone — managers, workers, suppliers, financiers — to make careful decisions. Double-check. Go slow.
Airbus has never had to live like that. With the A-380, its new, bigger-than-the-747 offering, one-third of development cost was paid by European taxpayers. If the A-380 succeeds, Airbus will have to pay the billions back under generous terms. If it fails, the loan will be forgiven. That means Airbus can push ahead with the A-350 — its rival to the Boeing 787 — without worrying nearly so much about the earlier project paying out.
Every Airbus plane has been financed this happy-go-lucky way. At the outset, when Airbus was an infant, that may have been the only way. But Airbus is a mature company now. It has a full product line. It is profitable. In the past five years, it has increased its global market share by 20 percentage points, to 50 percent of large commercial aircraft, and its order book to 60 percent. It is a company fully grown. It no longer needs to be diapered by the treasuries of Europe.
Boeing's estimated $3 billion in state tax concessions is not money up-front. It is money Boeing will earn over 20 years by designing, testing, assembling and selling its airplanes — money that it generated itself but would have had to pay to the state.
We don't think the taxpayer check Airbus gets is comparable to the tax concessions Boeing gets. If the WTO says it is, fine: End them both. But "launch aid" has to go. |
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/PrintStory.pl?document_id=2002296922&zsection_id=2002115909&slug=wtoed03&date=20050603 |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Wangja wrote: |
A delay announced but an interesting list of buyers so far for the 380 ...
Emirates: 43 aircraft
Lufthansa: 15
Qantas: 12
Air France: 10
Singapore Airlines: 10
Fedex: 10
International Lease Finance: 10
MAS: 6
Thai Airways: 6
Virgin Atlantic: 6
Korean Airlines: 5
Etihad Airways: 4
Qatar Airways: 2
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4598779.stm |
Seems like a big risk for Emirates. But that's Dubai's motto: bigger the better. |
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wannago
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 4:48 am Post subject: |
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| bucheon bum wrote: |
| Wangja wrote: |
A delay announced but an interesting list of buyers so far for the 380 ...
Emirates: 43 aircraft
Lufthansa: 15
Qantas: 12
Air France: 10
Singapore Airlines: 10
Fedex: 10
International Lease Finance: 10
MAS: 6
Thai Airways: 6
Virgin Atlantic: 6
Korean Airlines: 5
Etihad Airways: 4
Qatar Airways: 2
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4598779.stm |
Seems like a big risk for Emirates. But that's Dubai's motto: bigger the better. |
That, sir, is the truth. I went there for the first time a couple of months ago. Wow. |
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Wangja
Joined: 17 May 2004
Location: Seoul, Yongsan
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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This would have helped Boeing ......
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4072422.stm
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Senior US military officials bypassed checks and rushed through a corrupt $23.5bn (£13bn) deal to buy Boeing planes, a report has found.
Last year, former Air Force weapons buyer Darleen Druyun was jailed for boosting the price of the deal to win favour with Boeing.
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Although this particular deal was, quite correctly, aborted, others have probably been OK'd.
At least the "soft loans" to Airbus are repaid on commerical success: such "soft sales" are of course paid by the taxpayer. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2005 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Although this particular deal was, quite correctly, aborted, others have probably been OK'd. |
If that were the case than other US Defense contractors would be complaining.
I think Boeing isn't entitled to any help for R&D for civilian programs but a military stuff it might be a different case. |
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