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Infoseeker

Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Location: Lurking somewhere near Seoul
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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 9:59 pm Post subject: Those who said he deserved being shot for being an idiot... |
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...raise your nasty little handsies!
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New claims emerge over Menezes death
�� Brazilian was held before being shot
�� Police failed to identify him
�� He made no attempt to run away
Rosie Cowan, Duncan Campbell and Vikram Dodd
Wednesday August 17, 2005
The Guardian
The young Brazilian shot dead by police on a London tube train in mistake for a suicide bomber had already been overpowered by a surveillance officer before he was killed, according to secret documents revealed last night.
It also emerged in the leaked documents that early allegations that he was running away from police at the time of the shooting were untrue and that he appeared unaware that he was being followed.
Relatives and the dead man's legal team expressed shock and outrage at the revelations. Scotland Yard has continued to justify a shoot-to-kill policy.
Jean Charles de Menezes died after being shot on a tube train at Stockwell station in south London on July 22, the morning after the failed bomb attacks in London.
But the evidence given to the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) by police officers and eyewitnesses and leaked to ITV News shows that far from leaping a ticket barrier and fleeing from police, as was initially reported, he was filmed on CCTV calmly entering the station and picking up a free newspaper before boarding the train.
It has now emerged that Mr de Menezes:
�� was never properly identified because a police officer was relieving himself at the very moment he was leaving his home;
�� was unaware he was being followed;
�� was not wearing a heavy padded jacket or belt as reports at the time suggested;
�� never ran from the police;
�� and did not jump the ticket barrier.
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1550565,00.html
Apparantly the man witnesses saw jumping over the turnstile in a padded jacket WAS ONE OF THE PURSUERS!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1550669,00.html
Who are the idiots now?  |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003 Location: Kuwait
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Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 11:10 pm Post subject: Re: Those who said he deserved being shot for being an idiot |
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Since your news source is the guardian, it will likely be dismissed as a lefty conspiracy.
Or even more likely, this thread won't hear another squeak. |
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dulouz
Joined: 04 Feb 2003 Location: Uranus
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 2:04 am Post subject: |
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My little handsie is up and waving a big "HELLO WORLD". We just parroted what we read in the press just as you are doing now. So whats the next step in this process of spiral to civil war? Do the police go limp wristed on suspects and than after the next attack, which will be blamed on the police, do chastise them for not doing enough? Boy, are you gonna whine when marshall law is declared. |
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Pyongshin Sangja

Joined: 20 Apr 2003 Location: I love baby!
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:37 am Post subject: |
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It's martial law, pal. Before you start defending your jack boot fantasies maybe you should learn to spell. |
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Infoseeker

Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Location: Lurking somewhere near Seoul
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 4:31 am Post subject: |
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Pyongshin Sangja wrote: |
It's martial law, pal. Before you start defending your jack boot fantasies maybe you should learn to spell. |
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waggo
Joined: 18 May 2003 Location: pusan baby!
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 5:50 am Post subject: |
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Yeah thats right....they just decided to shoot him coz he looked like a
he had a sun tan!
What are these people and the OP trying to prove? The guy aroused enough suspicions for them to pull a gun on him.These people are not amateurs.They were and are under an incredible amount of stress and if there is anywhere in London where I dont mind a suicide bomber to pop his clogs its in the lobby of the Gaurdian newspaper
.....the guy legged it....he's an idiot.....I saw several witnesses give accounts directly to the news directly after the event.Were these witnesses secret service stooges? No!...they said what they saw.
Shoot to kill policy? Yes. Good. |
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sonofthedarkstranger
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:30 am Post subject: |
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So the only options (duluoz) are
1. Genocide against the vaguely Islamic-looking people of the world, or
2. The police should try not to offend known terrorists by arresting them or even politely questioning them, because that's racist unless they are white
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Sleepy in Seoul

Joined: 15 May 2004 Location: Going in ever decreasing circles until I eventually disappear up my own fundament - in NZ
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:39 am Post subject: |
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Shoot-to-kill policy? It should always be a shoot-to-kill policy. When I was doing my training at the Police Academy (very different from the movies, I can assure you), I was taught that a Police Officer should never draw his weapon unless he intends to use it. And if that Police Officer has to use it, shoot to kill. If the threat is bad enough to warrant using it, put the threat down permanently.
However, it would appear that the police in London did not identify their target properly, and killed an innocent man. I don't want to second-guess what really happened, as I know what it is like to be judged after the event with only partial information, but if the London police don't start doing a better job of identifying their targets properly, then they will only be playing into the hands of the terrorists by creating even more uncertainty and fear. |
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joe_doufu

Joined: 09 May 2005 Location: Elsewhere
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 8:56 am Post subject: |
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So if none of those initially reported conditions were true, why was he shot? Is the OP asking this question, or trying to fill in the blanks himself? It doesn't seem like this tells us anything at all about the situation. |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003 Location: Kuwait
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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joe_doufu wrote: |
So if none of those initially reported conditions were true, why was he shot? Is the OP asking this question, or trying to fill in the blanks himself? It doesn't seem like this tells us anything at all about the situation. |
So perhaps it would be best to keep an open mind before speaking ill of the dead? |
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Infoseeker

Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Location: Lurking somewhere near Seoul
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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joe_doufu wrote: |
So if none of those initially reported conditions were true, why was he shot? Is the OP asking this question, or trying to fill in the blanks himself? It doesn't seem like this tells us anything at all about the situation. |
When this poor buggar was shot, there were a lot of nasty posts on this board that rather disgusted me. An innocent mad was shot dead. I diidn't blame the police or the dead man. I decided I didn't know enough about it to be blaming anyone. But other people felt they did, and insulted and smeared a dead man they knew nothing about. Not cool.
When I saw this new information, I felt compelled to remind those nasty buggars of their previous behaviour. Perhaps in future they will think twice when shooting their mouths (or fingers) off in a similar situation.
Show some respect for an innocent dead man and his greiving family. |
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Infoseeker

Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Location: Lurking somewhere near Seoul
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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waggo wrote: |
What are these people and the OP trying to prove? The guy aroused enough suspicions for them to pull a gun on him.These people are not amateurs.They were and are under an incredible amount of stress and if there is anywhere in London where I dont mind a suicide bomber to pop his clogs its in the lobby of the Gaurdian newspaper
.....the guy legged it....he's an idiot.....I saw several witnesses give accounts directly to the news directly after the event.Were these witnesses secret service stooges? No!...they said what they saw.
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Quote: |
Initial accounts suggested that Mr de Menezes had fled from armed officers by vaulting over barriers before stumbling on to an underground train, where the officers opened fire. One witness in the carriage, Mark Whitby, 47, whose account formed an important part of the subsequent reports, said he had seen a man who looked Pakistani "hotly pursued by what I knew to be three plain-clothes police officers".
He described the man wearing "a coat like you would wear in winter, a sort of padded jacket" and looking as petrified as "a cornered rabbit" when he got on the train. Mr Whitby today refused to comment on the leak. |
http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1550815,00.html
It may be that he was confused about what he saw - or may be that he 'sexed it up.' I've been with friends when we've witnessed incidents (such as fights) and I've overheard my friends giving very different accounts from my interpretation of events. I've also seen how people enjoy the attention of being 'one of those who saw it' and then get carried away with their description of events. The description is then exaggerated a little more each time the story is told (and the teller then seeming to have convinced themselves it is in fact the truth).
It was also suggested that it was a policeman in pursuit who jumped over the turnstile wearing a padded jacket - with bystanders later assuming it must have been the unfortunate Brazilian. Witnesses are notoriously unreliable. Ask any policeman who has collected witness statements. One witness's account and interpretation can vary wildly from anothers.
waggo wrote: |
Yeah thats right....they just decided to shoot him coz he looked like a
he had a sun tan!
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Sadly, you may have hit the nail on the head. He looks like 'one of them.' |
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waggo
Joined: 18 May 2003 Location: pusan baby!
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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He was an innocent man caught up in a war.
But YOU and the Guardian are giving his tragic death much more attention than the 53+ innocent people...thats 53+ innocent people who were blown up by MUSLIM nutters.
The police were just trying to do their job and good on them.They arent murderers. Nobody on here said they didnt make a bad mistake.Nobody on here said the guy deserved it!
Anyway get back to your grieving for his family....(!)...Im sure you really feel their pain.Liberal *beep*. |
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Butterfly
Joined: 02 Mar 2003 Location: Kuwait
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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Nobody here called the 53 London victims, idiots. |
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The Bobster

Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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Posted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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waggo wrote: |
Nobody on here said the guy deserved it! |
I clearly recall more than one person around here saying that. Is my memory really that faulty? |
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