Korean Job Discussion Forums

[blunder1983]

Ok the religious slant got me in the mood, and I'm throwing out the question which until is explained to me prevents me from becoming a christian.

I do believe in a higher power, and I believe they are a benevolent entity. But I cant become a christian simply because I dont believe that Jesus is the only entry into heaven.

I got into long debates with my christian mates at uni about this, none managed to answer the question well...

Lets look at some people

Criminal who broke into a house murdered someone, during their stay in prison found Jesus, and genuinely repented their sins. -> Heaven

Fair enough, I think its a good sign that god is willing to forgive and being omnipotent then he can see if the person is genuine in their change of ways.

(Any other religion) man, respected doctor, gives to the poor and is a faithful husband -> Hell

Hang on a sec, this is a GOOD guy sure he must have done somethings bad but doesnt his honest heart and good deeds exonerate him? And lets face it, hell isnt a MINOR punishment is it, perhaps purgatory for a couple of years and then heaven, just for god to explain Christianity WAS right but hell???

Child dying in childbirth -> Hell

This is the real one which makes Christianity impossible to swallow for me. According to my friends they go to hell cause of original sin, now we're comparable to amobae compared to god and we dont kill the son of a murderer for the fathers "sin" so WHY does god still seek to punish us over something we had NO control over. I mean this has apparently been going on forever, he needs to let his grudge slide.

Hell awaits the entire of the Americas until the 1400s too, simply because Jesus wasnt born on that continent. (Although on this point, my friends views begin to differ).

And I've not got any knowledge apart from hearsay really but wasnt "hell" a invention by priests to maintain power? Wasnt the bible (new testament) a select few books from a choice of many? Wasnt Christianity formed amalgating it with the more baser Pagan religion and festivals? (SUNday for example) these are genuine questions where I've only heard half answers.

Oh, and if I am destined for heaven but my non christian family and friends arent I really couldnt take the thought that I was in paradise while they were in perpetual pain and misery, that knowledge would send anyone completely insane.

Ultimately the question is, do you want to live in a heaven where honest, devout (in their own way) people live a life of relative sinless exsistence and then get eternal damnation. Why such a harsh punishment for people who live good lives. If god was truely benevolent then he'd forgive these people, or do SOMETHING to stop other religions. If god wanted us to adhere to a strict set of rules and only believe in one religion, why give us free will in the first place.

There we go. Answer the question and I'll become a christian. And if I DO go to hell, stick in a good word for me with the guy upstairs, see if I can get a day pass or something.

[magicwolfman]

[magicwolfman]

As for your first example, salvation is not based on good deeds (contrary to what catholics may have you believe). The only way into heaven is through sincere acceptance and asking Jesus into ones heart.

[the eye]

[magicwolfman]

[magicwolfman]

[blunder1983]

Yeah but hes NOT done everything he can to let us know about him.

A book from 2,000 years ago is insufficient, ESPECIALLY when there are many other religions which also have their holy books, what makes the bible more "accurate" over the others.

If god had come and spoken to those practicing other faiths and then aware which would then be the "correct" one they still continued worshipping their faith he'd have reason to be a smidgen pissed off. (Although I think that eterntity of suffering is excessive punishment for ANYTHING)

Oh and for your statement that "relationships change" if going to heaven means all that I have loved in this life is simply forgotten then its not for me. One might ask, what is the point of living if its gonna be wiped clean when we go to heaven.

Interesting that unborn babies arent destined for hell/purgatory. I'm guessing your not catholic, so do they go to hell too?

Your arguements may well be just, and if that is the case then we are in a sorrier state of affairs than think is imaginable. A god who is that wrathful I wont acknowledge, and besides we only think heaven is great on his say so and hes not gonna say its crap now is he.

MW u've gotta look at your "preaching" I'd say u've successfully converted at least a couple of people away from christianity for life. The inability for Christianity to "evolve" (although evolution isn't real) is the nail in the coffin for it. Radaclists used to be able to cow an ignorant population into submission through fear, now we are more intelligent and people spouting how Harry Potter is the devil and Evolution never happened are destroying their faith exceptionally effectively.

Congrats, at least heaven wont be so crowded. But a heaven filled with self satisfied preachers of that ilk is no better than an eternity of hell.

[Demonicat]

Hell, one of my favourite topics. Let's look at its evolution:
In the beginning (way the hell back when) there were the Jews. They were a fairly happty bunch, and like the Greeks and Hindus they believed that when you died you went to one place- Abraham's Bosom (the Greeks called it Hades and I forget the Hindu name for it- but it was a beautiful concept: your soul is a raindrop swalloed into an ocean). Good, bad, ugly- didn't matter- all was forgiven and you were at one with your creator.
Meanwhile on Earth (well the small slant of the Middle East that our story is concerned with), the Babylonians were coming ito power. The Babylonians believed strongly in duality- there is good and evil, light and dark, coke and pepsi. At around 586-530 BCE the babylonians got the idea to capture this wondering tribe who was in their area- the Jews. Now, the Babylonians probably teased the Jews, but the did alot of talking as well and one of the things that they talked about was the Jews' concept of the afterlife. Now as the Jews said that the afterlife was 100% good, the Babylonians began to think: "Hmm, Issah says that when you die everything is one way...that can't be- nothing is just one way" So they created an opposite of the Jews' perfect place- Hell; which explains the original defnition of Hell- an awayness from God. While we are on the subject of the Babylonian captivity this is also where the concept of angels and demons come from- they were the many supernatural beings of good and evil- those crazy dualists.
A brief note: Eventually (not sure when, sorry) the concept of black/white became unappealing to the newly formed Christians. Afterall, what does happen to babies and people born without a chance for Christs word? They created a holding tank as it were where you did a light sentence before proceeding to heaven (kind of like a New Jersey Subway station). Later on, the church would find difficulty funding the crusades and come up with the lovely concept of plenary indulgences as a way to...well, bribe God's prison warden.
Lets flash forward, say 2100 years to the 1600's. A broke, unhappily wed poet down on his luck is looking to score a hit. This writers name was...John Milton. John Milton created a fantastic version of Hell, beset with levels ans layers- fire and brimstone, all the things we picture when we consider hell. The funny thing is only one level in the book was fire and brimstone, yet thats what everybody thinks of. Just to note he later got dicoreced and wrote Paradise Regained-which no one really cared for, imagine Wes Craven doing broadway and thats about the reception that I imagine.
Betwen 1962-1965 something interesting happened. The Catholic church (the only ones still with a purgatory by this point) got together and held Vatican II. This accomplished many interesting things, but the only one of import to this lecture is the removal of purgatory. Yeah....Where did it f'ing go? This was not answered, and the topic has been changed whenever I ask clergy. And back to the Babylonian dualism again.
That is the basic evolution of the concept of hell. Interesting isn't it. Originally (as we know it), it was all good and upon death God called EVERYONE back into him and loved everyone equally- you know the whole benevolent omnipotent thing to do, right? Some groups have changed that idea to concepts of an eternal struggle for the soul between the forces of good and evil. Some have changed it to be an "Us versus Them" arguement where group members solidify trust and ease fear by condemning other groups (like how we talk about the jerk at work getting canned)- this "us vesus them" thing is particulary virulant and is used today to oprress Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, as well as other religions and ethnic groups. My least favorite however is the concept that your fate was decided millenia ago when God wrote his playbook. That's right, no matte rhow you live your life- if you were predestined for hell thats where you are going. By this standard, Charles Manson may drink martinis in heaven while Mother Theresa tends to the cripples of hell. Then there are those who say that you must be born again (no matter how good of a job your mother did the first time). I'll let MW explain that as he can no doubt do it much less biased than I would.

[Demonicat]

Oh, and personally I believe in the original concept- which is to say that if their is an all powerful being who loved us eternally- he wouldn't torture us, but would instead love us and accept us. We do good deeds to make life on Earth better, not as a way to kiss God's ass so that we can get into heaven. I mean really, why would an omnipotent being who created the...everything ex nihilo gove a flying f--- about whether or not you were "saved". That is petty, political, human stuff not befitting of a highest being, but more of a cruel frat boy.

[mithridates]

op, my take on the concept of heaven and hell is that of The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis - sorry to have little more to say than a book recommendation but it takes quite a while to explain. Suffice to say that people who are suffering in the afterlife have chosen to be that way, not because of a lack of a trite recital of 'Jesus is Lord' but because they have chosen to remain where they are - in the book any one of them can make their way up to heaven afterwards but they find it too bright, too confronting and real and they prefer to be down below where they can be alone and work on whatever it is they want to do, though they are meaningless. One person turned down a trip to heaven because he had a thesis to do on a new view of what he thought Jesus to be and had a paper to publish on the subject - 'the largest barrier to knowing God is one's own concept of God' as I've seen written from time to time.

Hm, I'm not explaining it well at all. Thank God for Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Divorce

The book of his that talks about the concept of pain and suffering in the universe is this one:

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0032.html

The Problem of Pain.

[the eye]

[Demonicat]

Yo! Where did this dude validate theft?!? I gotta read that. I liked the snub against Jews, but I gotta read him praising theives.

[the eye]

[kermo]

Please ignore the wolfman. There are twits on any side of a debate.

I think Demonicat did a lovely job of explaining the history of Hell in layman's terms. I'm a Christian, and I didn't find it too biased at all. I think that C.S. Lewis's ideas about Heaven and Hell are beautiful, because they include God's mercy, and our choices. The Jews did in fact have a concept of a dark afterlife-- they call it "Sheol," and it essentially means "The Grave." There are images of a fiery hell in the Bible, but the brimstone may in fact be reserved for Satan himself. I imagine that Heaven is a place where we see God for who he is, and we finally love completely (not some divine amusement park.) I see Hell as a separation from God, which is dark and sad, but not unlike the life that some people choose for themselves here. Some versions of the Bible include a passage where Jesus, after he was crucified, went down to minister to souls in Hell. Does that mean that there are second chances after death? Perhaps.

I'm a Christian, but I don't advocate the "born on the wrong continent = Hell-bound" theory. It's simply not Biblical, for a start. Paul says that Abraham had faith, and that faith was "credited to him as righteousness." I firmly believe that people who have never been exposed to the Good News are not simply condemned for their ignorance.

The fact is that we are all deceived in one way or another. It doesn't matter how decent or sincere we are, we don't have perfect knowledge. Even Paul acknowledges this in 1st Corinthians 13:
>12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Each of us have had different opportunities to get to know God. Some people are cursed with terrible fathers, indifferent pastors, spastic forum posters who poison our image of God. We still look for him, and we find him in Nature, in the love of others, and in our consciences (God says "I will write the law on their hearts.") I think God takes each of our attempts to draw near to him on their merits. By the way, I know at least 2 people who found God while totally cut off from the "Christian" world. They were in Iran, and I wonder whether the trucks with loudspeakers, insincere businessmen or backstabbing church-ladies would have interfered with their salvation if they had been raised in the Bible Belt instead.

The example of the "good man" is an interesting one:
>(Any other religion) man, respected doctor, gives to the poor and is a faithful husband -> Hell

Nobody knows how close to God he is in his heart. Maybe he does these good things out of obligation, and secretly hates those around him. Maybe he has never seen an example of a Christian life lived truthfully and joyfully, and so he stays in his own faith where he senses the presence of God.

Jesus wants more than a few trite words and the right building on Sunday mornings. He talks about his criteria for separating true believers from those who were faking it:

[TheMrCul]