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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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 Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:42 am Post subject: Iraqis March, Say Elections Were Rigged |
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Iraqis March, Say Elections Were Rigged
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Large demonstrations broke out across the country Friday to denounce parliamentary elections that protesters called rigged in favor of the main religious Shiite coalition.
Damn, and I heard recently that things were going so well ... |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:36 am Post subject: |
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20,000 protested. So? They're unhappy that they lost. At least they're showing their frustrations peacefully.
Doesn't look like that bad of a sign to me. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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20,000 protested. So? They're unhappy that they lost. At least they're showing their frustrations peacefully.
Doesn't look like that bad of a sign to me.
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Did they protest because they lost, or because they think the election was rigged? There is a difference.
If it's the latter, than I think the pertinent question, in terms of the determining the government's de facto legitimacy, is how representive these people are of Sunni and secular opinion in Iraq.
And the leaders of the main Sunni and secular parties have questioned the results as well. |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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yes, because they lost. They can't believe that they're that unpopular and that Iraqis are that religous, etc. It's called not accepting reality.
That's my opinion at least. Now if there is ample evidence suggesting fraud and whatnot, then more power to them. |
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On the other hand
Joined: 19 Apr 2003
Location: I walk along the avenue
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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yes, because they lost. They can't believe that they're that unpopular and that Iraqis are that religous, etc. It's called not accepting reality.
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Yes, but if what if you've got a few million Iraqis "not accepting reality"(ie. sincerely thinking that the elections were rigged). In that case, it might not matter too much whether the elections really were rigged or not.
Suppose that after the next American congressional elections, 200 000 people(to adjust for population) march in Washington, claiming the election was rigged against the minority party. Furthermore, imgine that the head of that party's National Commitee goes on record as agreeing that the election lacked legitimacy. Probably wouldn't bode too well for national unity. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 10:48 pm Post subject: Re: Iraqis March, Say Elections Were Rigged |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
Iraqis March, Say Elections Were Rigged
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Large demonstrations broke out across the country Friday to denounce parliamentary elections that protesters called rigged in favor of the main religious Shiite coalition.
Damn, and I heard recently that things were going so well ... |
Protesters?
Demonstrations?
Elections?
And even claims that these elections were rigged?
Sounds like democracy to me. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 2:53 am Post subject: |
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| If people weren't protesting that the elections were rigged then I'd be worried. It's absolutely vital to the happiness of the rest of the world to be able to see Iraq turn into a disaster that can be blamed on the Americans. What actually happens is not important. It's the spin that counts. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 5:54 am Post subject: |
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Looking at the states, it seems people are able to get over and forget about rigged elections rather easily.  |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| Looking at the states, it seems people are able to get over and forget about rigged elections rather easily. |
Yes, and look at who was teaching them how to hold elections. They learned from the pros. |
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sundubuman
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: seoul
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 8:09 am Post subject: Re: Iraqis March, Say Elections Were Rigged |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
Iraqis March, Say Elections Were Rigged
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Large demonstrations broke out across the country Friday to denounce parliamentary elections that protesters called rigged in favor of the main religious Shiite coalition.
Damn, and I heard recently that things were going so well ... |
It's obvious you relish the possibility of them going poorly.
The left makes me sick. |
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Bee Positive
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Iraqis March, Say Elections Were Rigged |
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| sundubuman wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
Iraqis March, Say Elections Were Rigged
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Large demonstrations broke out across the country Friday to denounce parliamentary elections that protesters called rigged in favor of the main religious Shiite coalition.
Damn, and I heard recently that things were going so well ... |
It's obvious you relish the possibility of them going poorly.
The left makes me sick. |
Yeah, things will be going really well when someone points a gun at my head!
Like they were in Poland in 1940!
Sieg . . .
HEIL!
Seig . . .
Hail . . .
Bush . . . hail Bush!
HAIL~ HELL- HELL!
oh dear bush rape my wife kill my kids and bring me freedom dear jesus who didst die for the oil, take my oil, my country, my family, all that i am for you bring democracy and yes lord ill vote forever more if you come without regard to count just so long as dear lord were free now forever with american military bases forever and forever more on our soil as it was in the beginning is now and will be forever dear lord uncle sam amen
Stop me, someone,
BEE POSITIVE |
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bucheon bum
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 10:26 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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yes, because they lost. They can't believe that they're that unpopular and that Iraqis are that religous, etc. It's called not accepting reality.
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Yes, but if what if you've got a few million Iraqis "not accepting reality"(ie. sincerely thinking that the elections were rigged). In that case, it might not matter too much whether the elections really were rigged or not.
Suppose that after the next American congressional elections, 200 000 people(to adjust for population) march in Washington, claiming the election was rigged against the minority party. Furthermore, imgine that the head of that party's National Commitee goes on record as agreeing that the election lacked legitimacy. Probably wouldn't bode too well for national unity. |
Yes, that is true: it doesn't bode too well for national unity. On the other hand, if the winning coalition feels compelled to expand its coalition and incorporate some of the protesting groups, it might turn out better. |
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desultude
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: Dangling my toes in the Persian Gulf
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Iraqis March, Say Elections Were Rigged |
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| sundubuman wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
Iraqis March, Say Elections Were Rigged
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Large demonstrations broke out across the country Friday to denounce parliamentary elections that protesters called rigged in favor of the main religious Shiite coalition.
Damn, and I heard recently that things were going so well ... |
It's obvious you relish the possibility of them going poorly.
The left makes me sick. |
Yes, because the right has made things go so well for so many.  |
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The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 8:06 pm Post subject: Re: Iraqis March, Say Elections Were Rigged |
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| desultude wrote: |
| sundubuman wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
Iraqis March, Say Elections Were Rigged
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Large demonstrations broke out across the country Friday to denounce parliamentary elections that protesters called rigged in favor of the main religious Shiite coalition.
Damn, and I heard recently that things were going so well ... |
It's obvious you relish the possibility of them going poorly.
The left makes me sick. |
Yes, because the right has made things go so well for so many. |
It is a fact that things are not going well in Iraq. It is a fact that one of the primary reasons is the presence of the US military there. It is a fact that things are very unlikely to get better as long as we stay.
If there is anything I "relish" it's that Americans are starting to understand these facts, and if there is anything hopeful in the news lately it is signs that people are starting to see things as they are rather than merely how they wish them to be or how the White House Spin Machine wishes us to see them. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: Iraqis March, Say Elections Were Rigged |
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| The Bobster wrote: |
| desultude wrote: |
| sundubuman wrote: |
| The Bobster wrote: |
Iraqis March, Say Elections Were Rigged
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Large demonstrations broke out across the country Friday to denounce parliamentary elections that protesters called rigged in favor of the main religious Shiite coalition.
Damn, and I heard recently that things were going so well ... |
It's obvious you relish the possibility of them going poorly.
The left makes me sick. |
Yes, because the right has made things go so well for so many. |
(1) It is a fact that things are not going well in Iraq. (2)It is a fact that one of the primary reasons is the presence of the US military there. (3)It is a fact that things are very unlikely to get better as long as we stay.
If there is anything I "relish" it's that Americans are starting to understand these facts, and if there is anything hopeful in the news lately it is signs that people are starting to see things as they are rather than merely how they wish them to be or how the White House Spin Machine wishes us to see them. |
1. It is also a fact that the MAJORITY of the insurgency is confined to four out of the 18 provinces in Iraq. The Kurds for example seem to doing very well. Shows what would happen if certain groups like the Sunnis refused to accept terrorism and started turning insurgents in
2. It is also a fact that only about of half of the army and police force are ready. However some of these forces are already undertaking operations on their own. Once they are ready, the Iraqi government will likely ask the U.S forces to leave (which most in the U.S. government would apparently like to comply with)
3. If the Iraq forces are trained in order to police their own country, that is "better". If large numbers of the insurgents are killed, so that the Iraqi security forces have to face less of an armed opposition that would also be "better" as it bodes well for the future of the only Arab democracy in the world.
As for the rest of your post while Americans do agree that the war was bungled. only about a fifth (according to a November issue of the Economist) support immediate withdrawal. Most (again according to The Economist) support staying because they seem to realise that immediate withdrawal would (a) only cause chaos. (b) and quite rightly be seen as a victory for the insurgents (some of who advovate taking this violence to American soil which would be easier to do once they have a country to do it from.
Be careful what you wish for, it might very well come true...and have fateful and unexpected consequences. |
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