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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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 Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 4:45 am Post subject: |
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Alas, "mindmetoo" has been reduced to personal baiting and slanderous accusations in lieu of intellectual arguments.
Perhaps he's gunning for an honorary degree as "meathead emeritus" before he gets banned from these forums ... |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:22 am Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
Alas, "mindmetoo" has been reduced to personal baiting and slanderous accusations in lieu of intellectual arguments.
Perhaps he's gunning for an honorary degree as "meathead emeritus" before he gets banned from these forums ... |
Oh come on. You're not exactly innocent. You just don't like your religious bigotry exposed. Let me quote you:
"That the Bhagavad-gita is intellectually superior, philosophically deeper than the Bible should be evident to any intelligent person."
That strikes me as a deeply, deeply bigoted statement.
And I'm sorry, Rteacher, but I can't help but feel you're ready to give up your giant blue baby myths and this truly is your last attempt to find a logical and scientific under pinning to what you're sensing is just so much blue baby crap.
We all see it. You don't. But I think you do.
Last edited by mindmetoo on Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:32 am; edited 2 times in total |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:23 am Post subject: |
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He won a nobel prize, he believes in evolution, and god:
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Statement on my view on biological evolution
TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN:
I recently got aware of an article entitled "Werner Arber: Nobel Laureate, Darwin Skeptic" that was published in September 2008 by the Institute for Creation Research and that is authored by Jerry Bergman, Ph.D. This article completely misinterprets my general conclusions that I base on several decades of studies in microbial genetics. A number of citations are taken out of their original context and surrounded by comments and misinterpretations by the author of the article.
The truth is that I have contributed to advance scientific knowledge on biological evolution by studying molecular mechanisms of genetic variation. Genetic variation is clearly the driving force of biological evolution. A number of different specific molecular mechanisms contribute to spontaneous genetic variation. Together with non-genetic elements specific gene products are thereby involved as variation generators and as modulators of the rates of genetic variation. These are established facts that are based on experimental evidences and that are valid for the course of biological evolution as it works today in living organisms. Theoretically, one can extrapolate into the past history of life development on Earth. One can, e.g., postulate how the genes involved in biological evolution may have become fine-tuned to insure to living organisms a comfortable genetic stability and at the same time to the populations of living organisms an evolutionary development, including adaptability to changing living conditions and an expansion of biodiversity. In contrast, there is, so far, neither satisfactory scientific knowledge nor theory on the origin and early evolution of life on our planet.
On solid scientific grounds one cannot expect to discover if a Creator as defined by religious beliefs and sometimes referred to as intelligent design or God's Will, could be responsible for the origin and subsequent evolution of life. Serious scientific investigations can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God or a possible impact of God on evolutionary processes. In our civilization, both scientific knowledge and religious beliefs contribute essentially to our orientating knowledge, but these two sources of our worldview should not be intermingled.
In conclusion, I am neither a "Darwin skeptic" nor an "intelligent design supporter" as it is claimed in Bergman's article. I stand fully behind the NeoDarwinian theory of biological evolution and I contributed to confirm and expand this theory at the molecular level so that it can now be called Molecular Darwinism.
Werner Arber
Professor emeritus for Molecular Microbiology,
University of Basel.
Nobel Laureate Medicine/Physiology 1978 |
http://scienceblogs.com/tfk/2009/01/how_the_texas_board_of_ed_misr.php |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:21 am Post subject: |
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[quote="greedy_bones"]
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well many claims in science are later proven false! many scientists take guesses too... just becuase a scientist wears a lab coat and looks into a telescope doesn't make him right! history proves that! |
...and?
And? .. bascially dont bet the house on it thats all!
assumptions are the mother of all *beep* ups!
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| Science and scientists are not the same thing. |
I know.. thats why there are MANY good religious scientists working in labs todays! finding cures, and making medicines! etc..
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| I see nothing so unbelievable in this idea. Only 1,000 years ago people were living in shacks covered in feces, using leeches to cure disease and burning people alive. |
well we can see that today too!
but actually 1000 years ago we had democratic societies, inventions, scholars, and scientists!
I am not saying ignorance wasn't here but 1000 years ago, and 10.000 years ago, and even 100.000 years ago, our bodies had DNA, CELLS, we had eye balls, brains, viens, livers, heart, kidneys, lungs, you name it!
Im even confident to say that man 100.000 years ago, or even 1 million years ago could recall a thought! see in full color! and think what he feels like eating, has emotions, desires and depression etc...
Anyway might of been a scientific miracle! a freak of nature of some sort
or like in Blade runner! we are designed and have a maker! |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
| Alas, "mindmetoo" has been reduced to personal baiting and slanderous accusations in lieu of intellectual arguments. |
So you're saying that you have more evidence than Mindmetoo?
It's hard to say who has more evidence because your frames of reference are different.
While you argue from the standpoint of Hindu scriptures, he argues from the standpoint of archaeology, embryology, and DNA analysis.
Suppose I told you that you should stop celebrating birthdays because the Jehovah's Witnesses say it's wrong.
Suppose I told you that you should stop drinking coffee or tea because the Mormons say it's wrong.
Suppose I told you that you should stop drawing pictures because the Moslems say it's wrong.
Would that convince you?
Of course not! You haven't agreed on the frame of reference!
Mindmetoo doesn't seem to be very much interested in arguing from the standpoint of Hindu scriptures.
Will you be willing to argue from the standpoint of archaeology, embryology, and DNA analysis? |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="itaewonguy"]
| greedy_bones wrote: |
| Quote: |
well many claims in science are later proven false! many scientists take guesses too... just becuase a scientist wears a lab coat and looks into a telescope doesn't make him right! history proves that! |
...and?
And? .. bascially dont bet the house on it thats all!
assumptions are the mother of all *beep* ups! |
That's why hypotheses are tested, and either credited or disproved. No scientist has "bet the house" on abiogenesis as absolute fact because they don't have the evidence yet. Can the religious say the same? |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="Underwaterbob"]
| itaewonguy wrote: |
| greedy_bones wrote: |
| Quote: |
well many claims in science are later proven false! many scientists take guesses too... just becuase a scientist wears a lab coat and looks into a telescope doesn't make him right! history proves that! |
...and?
And? .. bascially dont bet the house on it thats all!
assumptions are the mother of all *beep* ups! |
That's why hypotheses are tested, and either credited or disproved. No scientist has "bet the house" on abiogenesis as absolute fact because they don't have the evidence yet. Can the religious say the same? |
If you ask any educated religious person, and ask himto bet all his fortune whether god exists! I doubt he will bet !
religion is faith! you do know the meaning of faith don't you bob?
Its more like HOPE! but they take that hope to a new degree with no doubt! and that becomes a lifestyle!
of course there are a few mental cases where they will let their children die because they believe prayer will cure.. but those are mental people!
the majority of religious folk, hope jesus is real! and do not question that faith as a follower.. BUT.. of course they can read between the lines!
Im sure Barrack Obama- A harvard educated Lawyer! can sort through evidence better than anyone on this board!!
you might say' well he is blinded by faith!
I say no, He continues to believe in God becuase as a trained lawyer he doesn't see any undisputable evidence to support god is not real!
you say they choose to ignore the evidence!!
NO! the evidence is not enough to be considered yet!
Im sure when science can finally come forward with undisputable evidence 98% of believers will stop believing in that, and probably move onto something else... either Atheism, or Design in some other way.
but right now, the evidence truely is not enough! sure its enough to anti regilious people, bigot scientists and atheist! but to the rest of the world who examine the evidence closely without bias. NO!
GOD is a major player in this debate! and I think you bob, tomato and bones know this.. MInd me too on the otherhand well he is your classic bigot who doesn't want to accept reason! a pure devotee of dawkins! |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
| If you ask any educated religious person, and ask himto bet all his fortune whether god exists! I doubt he will bet ! |
I sort of thought you were being metaphorical with the betting thing, but I guess not. In which case your original argument becomes even more of a strawman, because I seriously doubt there are any scientists out there making literal "bets" on abiogenesis.
| itaewonguy wrote: |
religion is faith! you do know the meaning of faith don't you bob?
Its more like HOPE! but they take that hope to a new degree with no doubt! and that becomes a lifestyle! |
Your definition of faith is a lifestyle that comes from having hope with no doubt, and you question whether or not I know the meaning of faith.
How is hope with no doubt that god exists any different from certainty that god exists anyway? |
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Rteacher
Joined: 23 May 2005
Location: Western MA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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The point is that I don't rely on making personal attacks - as "mindmetoo" has done directly and you ("tomato") have also done directly (and indirectly) characterizing me as a mind-controlled cult member and religious extremist.
I understand that you've had some bad experiences with "cults" so I didn't take your aspersions in that connection personally, but your labeling me an intolerant religious extremist is baseless, I think.
"Mindmetoo" strikes me as being more pernicious, and he has tended to resort to slanderous terms like "bigot" whenever he couldn't readily come up with an intellectual counter to something I've posted that's apparently hit a nerve (though possibly he was drunk when posting.)
Public figures and positions on controversial topics are fair game for attack on these kind of forums, but slanderous characterizations of ordinary people doesn't fly.
My assertion that it should be evident to any intelligent person that "Bhagavad-gita is intellectually superior and philosophically deeper than the Bible" was perhaps a bit over the top, but mainly because "intellectually superior" should have been re-worded to convey the idea that the Gita targets a more intellectual audience than the relatively primitive desert-dwellers that Jesus was addressing.
In any case, it's not a "bigoted" statement since I was born and baptized a Christian, and I consider Jesus to be a fully realized universal spiritual master - and an empowered incarnation of God.
Since "mindmetoo's" attacks on Christianity are much worse than mine, he'd be more on target if he labeled himself a bigot.
Obviously, he doesn't give a rat's ass about defending Christianity per se, and he just throws out the term "bigot" to defend his precious materialist science paradigm from going by the wayside as the inevitable synthesis between science and religion (looking more Vedic than Christian) takes shape. |
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Underwaterbob
Joined: 08 Jan 2005
Location: In Cognito
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
| My assertion that it should be evident to any intelligent person that "Bhagavad-gita is intellectually superior and philosophically deeper than the Bible" was perhaps a bit over the top, but mainly because "intellectually superior" should have been re-worded to convey the idea that the Gita targets a more intellectual audience than the relatively primitive desert-dwellers that Jesus was addressing. |
Wow, I was almost on your side until you made this comment. It's this kind of intellectual superiority complex that turns me off most religions and causes the most problems within them. |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
| "Mindmetoo" strikes me as being more pernicious, and he has tended to resort to slanderous terms like "bigot" whenever he couldn't readily come up with an intellectual counter to something I've posted that's apparently hit a nerve (though possibly he was drunk when posting.) |
You're a bigot. I'm sorry. You paint people who don't believe in your specific faith with a very wide brush and attribute negative qualities to them.
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| Since "mindmetoo's" attacks on Christianity are much worse than mine, he'd be more on target if he labeled himself a bigot. |
Attacking hypocritical leaders is not the same as attacking the faith itself. |
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greedy_bones
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Location: not quite sure anymore
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
If you ask any educated religious person, and ask himto bet all his fortune whether god exists! I doubt he will bet !
religion is faith! you do know the meaning of faith don't you bob?
Its more like HOPE! but they take that hope to a new degree with no doubt! and that becomes a lifestyle!
of course there are a few mental cases where they will let their children die because they believe prayer will cure.. but those are mental people!
the majority of religious folk, hope jesus is real! and do not question that faith as a follower.. BUT.. of course they can read between the lines!
Im sure Barrack Obama- A harvard educated Lawyer! can sort through evidence better than anyone on this board!!
you might say' well he is blinded by faith!
I say no, He continues to believe in God becuase as a trained lawyer he doesn't see any undisputable evidence to support god is not real!
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Atheists aren't asking those who believe to bet everything on the absence of God. We are simply suggesting you use the same scrutiny you use for any other information for your belief in God. If someone says China is planning a nuclear attack on the US, most people will ask for evidence of this. You can say, well there's no evidence against this, and we can't comprehend what goes on in Hu Jintao's mind.
I don't think people who have faith are stupid, I just disagree with their views on God.
Yes, there's no evidence against God, but there's evidence against the texts which purport to be the word of God. |
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itaewonguy
Joined: 25 Mar 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Underwaterbob wrote: |
Your definition of faith is a lifestyle that comes from having hope with no doubt, and you question whether or not I know the meaning of faith.
How is hope with no doubt that god exists any different from certainty that god exists anyway? |
A kind of Suspension of disbelief
certainty and hope are two different words with two very different meanings..
Hope with no doubt is kind of self manipulation of the mind but you can come back from it. so there are many religious people turned atheist.
certainty means you have made up your mind, convinced yourself that its fact and there is no going back...ie staunch christians! staunch atheists!
I don't think any religious person deep down is certain there is a god.
they believe their to be a god and don't doubt the possibility.
end of the day if a gun is pointed to their head and asked to answer IS THERE A GOD!!
they will replyt" I don't Know"
its a tricky question its not black and white... |
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greedy_bones
Joined: 01 Jul 2007
Location: not quite sure anymore
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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| itaewonguy wrote: |
A kind of Suspension of disbelief
certainty and hope are two different words with two very different meanings..
Hope with no doubt is kind of self manipulation of the mind but you can come back from it. so there are many religious people turned atheist.
certainty means you have made up your mind, convinced yourself that its fact and there is no going back...ie staunch christians! staunch atheists!
I don't think any religious person deep down is certain there is a god.
they believe their to be a god and don't doubt the possibility.
end of the day if a gun is pointed to their head and asked to answer IS THERE A GOD!!
they will replyt" I don't Know"
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Then why pass laws and live your life based on a "hope" for God. I can understand this if there is an absolute belief, but if you think there probably is a God, why decide it's better to not use contraception? |
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tomato
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: I get so little foreign language experience, I must be in Koreatown, Los Angeles.
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| Posted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Rteacher wrote: |
| I understand that you've had some bad experiences with "cults" so I didn't take your aspersions in that connection personally, |
I know about cults not only from what I've experienced, but what I have read.
The books I have read have given specific examples to support their claims.
For example: Cult leaders teand to scare their followers with imaginary enemies.
Jim Jones told his followers that the CIA and the Ku Klux Klan were lurking outside the walls of Jonestown.
The Moonie leaders tell their followers that Satan will get them if they ever defect from the Moonie cult.
The Jehovah's Witnesses call themselves "sheep" and everyone else "goats."
As we have seen from Rteacher's numerous cut-and-paste jobs, the Hare Krishna leaders villainize materialist atheist scientists--and all without a gram of evidence.
| Quote: |
| but your labeling me an intolerant religious extremist is baseless, I think. |
You're changing the subject.
My past experience with cults has nothing to do with it.
I'm calling you a bigot because you--and no one else--are a bigot.
If you don't understand why I call you a bigot, then you've forgotten about the messages whichi you have been posting for the last several years. |
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