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ropebreezy
Joined: 27 Aug 2009
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 Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
Got any evidence against it being spread via the hepatitis vaccine in the three areas of the US in 1976 which also became the epicenters of AIDS there? |
The burden of proof isn't on me if you were to make that claim. (are you making that claim?)
| bacasper wrote: |
| And so far. no one has been able to adequately explain AIDS' bizarre epidemiology, i.e. primarily a gay disease in the US while a heterosexual disease in Africa (except for mindmetoo who tried to convince me here that marauding bands if murderous AIDS patients went spreading it around Africa). |
Adequate to whom? (just out of curiosity.)
Even still, there are plenty of stuff in biology, hell science in general, that are not adequately explained. I don't see the relevance here. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 9:49 pm Post subject: |
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| ropebreezy wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
Got any evidence against it being spread via the hepatitis vaccine in the three areas of the US in 1976 which also became the epicenters of AIDS there? |
The burden of proof isn't on me if you were to make that claim. (are you making that claim?) |
I didn't make the claim about polio, yet you attempted to refute that. Why the selectivity?
| bacasper wrote: |
| And so far, no one has been able to adequately explain AIDS' bizarre epidemiology, i.e. primarily a gay disease in the US while a heterosexual disease in Africa (except for mindmetoo who tried to convince me here that marauding bands if murderous AIDS patients went spreading it around Africa). |
| Quote: |
| Adequate to whom? (just out of curiosity.) |
Epidemiologists.
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| Even still, there are plenty of stuff in biology, hell science in general, that are not adequately explained. I don't see the relevance here. |
There is a difference between "unexplained" and "bizarre." |
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michealtop
Joined: 18 Oct 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:16 am Post subject: |
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| I can't see the movie! Is it locked? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
Got any evidence against it being spread via the hepatitis vaccine in the three areas of the US in 1976 which also became the epicenters of AIDS there?
And so far. no one has been able to adequately explain AIDS' bizarre epidemiology, i.e. primarily a gay disease in the US while a heterosexual disease in Africa (except for mindmetoo who tried to convince me here that marauding bands if murderous AIDS patients went spreading it around Africa). |
Why is this so hard to accept? The gay men most likely to get AIDS in America and the heterosexuals most likely to get AIDS in Africa share a common behavior type: condom-free sex. Condom use -- which is fairly common among American heterosexuals -- makes transmission substantially less likely. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:31 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
Got any evidence against it being spread via the hepatitis vaccine in the three areas of the US in 1976 which also became the epicenters of AIDS there?
And so far. no one has been able to adequately explain AIDS' bizarre epidemiology, i.e. primarily a gay disease in the US while a heterosexual disease in Africa (except for mindmetoo who tried to convince me here that marauding bands if murderous AIDS patients went spreading it around Africa). |
Why is this so hard to accept? The gay men most likely to get AIDS in America and the heterosexuals most likely to get AIDS in Africa share a common behavior type: condom-free sex. Condom use -- which is fairly common among American heterosexuals -- makes transmission substantially less likely. |
In the early days of AIDS, condom use was also relatively rare among US heterosexuals, and I am guessing among African homosexuals as well, so that would not explain it. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:04 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
Got any evidence against it being spread via the hepatitis vaccine in the three areas of the US in 1976 which also became the epicenters of AIDS there?
And so far. no one has been able to adequately explain AIDS' bizarre epidemiology, i.e. primarily a gay disease in the US while a heterosexual disease in Africa (except for mindmetoo who tried to convince me here that marauding bands if murderous AIDS patients went spreading it around Africa). |
Why is this so hard to accept? The gay men most likely to get AIDS in America and the heterosexuals most likely to get AIDS in Africa share a common behavior type: condom-free sex. Condom use -- which is fairly common among American heterosexuals -- makes transmission substantially less likely. |
In the early days of AIDS, condom use was also relatively rare among US heterosexuals, and I am guessing among African homosexuals as well, so that would not explain it. |
Is there data on African homosexuals being comparatively free of AIDS? For that matter, do you have data on hand regarding condom usage by heterosexual Americans at the time? I admit I don't. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:09 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| Is there data on African homosexuals being comparatively free of AIDS? For that matter, do you have data on hand regarding condom usage by heterosexual Americans at the time? I admit I don't. |
Not hard data, but I am certain that condom use increased significantly as a result of a concerted effort to promote condom usage once AIDS appeared.
Prior to that, again as I recall, condoms were mainly used by heterosexuals seriously concerned about avoiding pregnancy. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:34 am Post subject: |
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10% of Caucasians are immune to hiv.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050325234239.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9493032?dopt=Abstract
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| Recently, it was shown that a 32-bp deletion in the CKR5 macrophage chemokine receptor gene produced resistance to HIV infection. Frequencies of the CKR5 mutant allele in Russians, Tatars, Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Azerbaijanis, Uigurts, Tuvinians, and Georgians estimated by means of the PCR technique were equal to 0.13, 0.12, 0.85, 0.06, 0.05, 0.04, 0.03, and 0.00, respectively. While the theoretically expected frequency of deletion homozygotes in Russians and Tatars was 1.7%, none of such homozygotes were detected among the 90 persons examined. The data suggested that about 25% of the population in northwestern Russia is highly resistant to HIV infection. |
So either "immune" or "highly resistant". This helps explain much, doesn't it. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| mises wrote: |
10% of Caucasians are immune to hiv.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/03/050325234239.htm
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9493032?dopt=Abstract
| Quote: |
| Recently, it was shown that a 32-bp deletion in the CKR5 macrophage chemokine receptor gene produced resistance to HIV infection. Frequencies of the CKR5 mutant allele in Russians, Tatars, Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Azerbaijanis, Uigurts, Tuvinians, and Georgians estimated by means of the PCR technique were equal to 0.13, 0.12, 0.85, 0.06, 0.05, 0.04, 0.03, and 0.00, respectively. While the theoretically expected frequency of deletion homozygotes in Russians and Tatars was 1.7%, none of such homozygotes were detected among the 90 persons examined. The data suggested that about 25% of the population in northwestern Russia is highly resistant to HIV infection. |
So either "immune" or "highly resistant". This helps explain much, doesn't it. |
This would tend to support the conspiracy theorists' contention that HIV was created in a lab specifically to target blacks and gays.
OTOH, only 10% immunity is not enough to account for the difference we see in rates. |
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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 8:30 am Post subject: |
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No, it isn't a conspiracy. It is the result of a genetic trauma.
A 10% immunity doesn't go far, but a 25% would. That would be a significant barrier for the virus to spread.
Further, as I've previously argued on this site, hiv in Africa is likely overstated to a very large extent.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/korea/viewtopic.php?t=125122&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/05/AR2006040502517.html
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Years of HIV overestimates, researchers say, flowed from the long-held assumption that the extent of infection among pregnant women who attended prenatal clinics provided a rough proxy for the rate among all working-age adults in a country. Working age was usually defined as 15 to 49. These rates also were among the only nationwide data available for many years, especially in Africa, where health tracking was generally rudimentary.
The new studies show, however, that these earlier estimates were skewed in favor of young, sexually active women in the urban areas that had prenatal clinics. Researchers now know that the HIV rate among these women tends to be higher than among the general population. |
This has always been the problem. They sample from populations that are more at-risk than the general population and expand the model to the wider society. This happens with TB (the largest reason for the incorrect estimates as the WHO attaches an hiv infection to all proven TB infections) and with prisoners etc.
It's like sampling San Francisco and expanding the data to include Dallas. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:26 am Post subject: |
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This leader appears to be worried about the ingredients.
Polish PM refuses to buy H1N1 vaccine without `guarantee`
Posted: 2009/11/08
From: Source
Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk won`t buy swine flu vaccines without proper tests by producers.
WARSAW, Nov. 6, (thechronicleherald.ca) -- Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said Friday that his government won't buy vaccines for swine flu that have not been properly tested or from producers who won't take responsibility for possible side effects.
Tusk told reporters that vaccine producers were pressuring governments to buy, but were also demanding that all responsibility and compensation for possible negative side effects fall upon government shoulders.
``Today we are dealing with great pressure from pharmaceutical firms ... we are dealing with expectations that hundreds of millions of zlotys (dollars) will be spent on vaccine while no one wants to guarantee that it has no side effects,'' he said.
He stressed that the few dozen swine cases in Poland have been mild and no deaths have been reported.
Some independent health experts have been advising vaccination after a recent surge in flu cases in neighbouring Ukraine saw more than 700,000 cases and 109 deaths of people with flu-like illness in recent weeks.
Fourteen of the fatalities were swine flu cases, Polish news agency PAP reported, citing Ukraine's chief doctor Oleksandr Bilovol.
Polish health officials said a military medical laboratory in Pulawy was testing samples taken in Ukraine from sick people. Poland is also sending face masks to Ukraine.
On Thursday, the World Health Organization said that the swine flu virus has become the predominant flu strain worldwide.
In some countries, swine flu accounts for up to 70 per cent of the flu viruses being sampled, according to Dr. Keiji Fukuda, WHO's top flu official.
While most people recover from the illness without needing medical treatment, officials are also continuing to see severe cases in people under 65 � people who are not usually at risk during regular flu seasons. |
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seonsengnimble
Joined: 02 Jun 2009
Location: taking a ride on the magic English bus
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
| Is there data on African homosexuals being comparatively free of AIDS? For that matter, do you have data on hand regarding condom usage by heterosexual Americans at the time? I admit I don't. |
Not hard data, but I am certain that condom use increased significantly as a result of a concerted effort to promote condom usage once AIDS appeared.
Prior to that, again as I recall, condoms were mainly used by heterosexuals seriously concerned about avoiding pregnancy. |
A couple of factors to consider with the homosexual males getting HIV more frequently than heterosexual males.
Being on the receiving end tends to put you at greater risk than being on the giving end due to simple physics. Heterosexual males tend to be on the giving end whereas homosexuals tend to be on the receiving end at least 50% of the time. Anal intercourse has a higher transmission rate than oral or vaginal intercourse. Gay men tend to have anal intercourse much more often than do heterosexual men.
And finally, although I'm too lazy to find any statistics about this at the moment, I would venture to guess that prior to the outbreak of HIV/AIDS, homosexual men probably used condoms less. The reason being that there is no risk of impregnating either partner.
One other factor might be in the higher number of partners. How easy do you think it is for a heterosexual man to walk into a club and take someone home? Now compare that to how easy it is for a homosexual man to walk into a gay club and take someone home. If 100% of the clientele in a club are of the gender you're seeking vs. 50%, chances are you'll be more successful.
As to the African situation, I need to read up on it and then I can get back to you. I would however venture to suggest that factors such as condom use and point of origin may play a significant role. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 7:47 am Post subject: ... |
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| Quote: |
| 10% of Caucasians are immune to hiv. |
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| A 10% immunity doesn't go far |
Overstatement. "Immune" is not a word used in the articles cited. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:17 am Post subject: Re: ... |
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| Nowhere Man wrote: |
| Quote: |
| 10% of Caucasians are immune to hiv. |
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| A 10% immunity doesn't go far |
Overstatement. "Immune" is not a word used in the articles cited. |
| The first of the two articles cited wrote: |
| Scientists have known for some time that these individuals carry a genetic mutation (known as CCR5-delta 32) that prevents the virus from entering the cells of the immune system but have been unable to account for the high levels of the gene in Scandinavia and relatively low levels in areas bordering the Mediterranean. |
and
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| Around 1900, historians spread the idea that the plagues of Europe were not a directly infectious disease but were outbreaks of bubonic plague, overturning an accepted belief that had stood for 550 years. Professor Duncan and Dr Scott illustrated in their book, Return of the Black Death (2004, Wiley), that this idea was incorrect and the plagues of Europe (1347-1660) were in fact a continuing series of epidemics of a lethal, viral, haemorrhagic fever that used the CCR5 as an entry port into the immune system. |
It is true, however, that the second article does not use the word "immune" in the Russian language in which it is written. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:24 am Post subject: |
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This article has been deleted because of a misleading headline.
Last edited by bacasper on Thu Nov 12, 2009 8:38 am; edited 1 time in total |
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