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buddy bradley
Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Location: The Beyond
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 Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| rapier wrote: |
Wrong, wrong, wrong.....
i grew up with a system of corporal punishment...we excelled at our studies... and never said boo to the teachers.. We weren't unquestioning robots either. We just knew how to question authority in a respectful way.
People respect strength, first and foremost. You have to have this, before they will accept what you're trying to teach them.
The reason i've given up on a particular class is because the money-oriented hagwon has totally denied me the basic tools to do the job of teaching them..... |
I know what you're saying because I was there too. Korea, however, is different to what we experienced. It wouldn't work here, for many reasons. When apartheid ended so did the corporal punishment thing, ushering in the age of overly-sensitive political correctness in southern Africa. The heydays are gone. |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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Kinda curious:
All those that think corporal punishment is something from the black ages:
When I was in middle school, it was an "oldskool" type Catholic school. The teachers could not hit the students, however our headmaster could.
What do you think of this? Someone at the school should have the authority to do it. A headmaster is neutral. They hear the facts and can make a judgement. A teacher may be hot headed and not able to make a rash judgement.
I have stated many times I am not against SOME FORMS of corporal punishment. It really isn't my style to use it. I personally feel if I have to worry about hitting kids, I shouldn't be teaching. However on an occassion or two I've had to send a kid or two down to the office to see their homeroom teacher, or my supervisor.
I think back to when I was in highschool. There was a class that used to throw pennies at the teacher. He couldn't do anything. He'd kick the kids out, but ultimately the kids knew they could get away with it, so they did it. If the teacher/school could use corporal punishment, I doubt that situation would have occured.
Scott in HK...saying it is just lazy to hit kids isn't always the truth. Sure there might be some underlying facts of why a kid would say F-off to their teacher...but most teachers aren't in the game for the cash...they are there to educate. How much educating can you do if it is an uphill battle with your students?
In some cases, corporal punishment is a necessary evil. |
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Scott in HK
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: now in Incheon..haven't changed my name yet
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:54 pm Post subject: |
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Mr. Pink wrote
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| I think back to when I was in highschool. There was a class that used to throw pennies at the teacher. He couldn't do anything. He'd kick the kids out, but ultimately the kids knew they could get away with it, so they did it. If the teacher/school could use corporal punishment, I doubt that situation would have occured. |
So these kids only through pennies at one teacher....or every teacher they had....if it was just one...then I would think that it was the fault of the teacher's classroom management style...
This was average class in your school...or did they put all the penny throwers in one class???
Simply put...they shouldn't be able to get away with it...there are other forms of punishment...and as last resort maybe they should have been expelled...
It should never be an uphill battle....classes start with both teachers and students on equal footing...if has become an uphill battle that means the teacher has been loosing ground for a long time....
| Quote: |
| Sure there might be some underlying facts of why a kid would say F-off to their teacher...but most teachers aren't in the game for the cash...they are there to educate. |
and finding a way to educate your students is both part of your educational duties and part of the student's education... |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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I think my highschool was pretty good. However we had some pretty bad apples. In that one class, the teacher was actually an immigrant. His English skills weren't 100% and the kids used that to pick on him. I actually respect the fact he didn't quit. I would have.
The kids in my class would throw pennies at him. When he was writing on the blackboard. So he couldn't see who it was. In another class he had this really evil kid would order pizzas to his class. (That kid did get expelled)
We had another teacher that came in with brown hair. After a year she had more white hairs than brown. I heard the kids made her cry. Even if she had crap classroom management skills, should she have been subjected to that abuse? Can you imagine the stress of having most of your hair turn white?
Seriously, if I verbally abuse someone on the street, chances are something is going to happen. I always wonder why a classroom is a "freezone" where kids can get away with stuff they totally wouldn't get away with outside the school.
If I had to guess why some of these teachers put up with it: student loans and they need a job. Kind of why some of us in Korea put up with crap jobs when we first come over.
The answer isn't always classroom management. New teachers shouldn't have to learn the "hard way" by being degraded, insulted, harassed etc. Also what does expelling prove? You just put some bad apples on the street. Then they end up breaking into cars or homes...possibly even getting into more serious crimes. |
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tokki
Joined: 26 Jul 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Corky wrote: |
Your goal as a teacher should be to create trust and comfort, not fear.
Corporal punishment creates fear. Fear is not respect: it's a form of disgust. You get more respect and trust from your students if you can defuse a situation without losing your cool. |
Oh get off whatever the hell you are smoking. There are kids who are just plain evil. No amount of "good diplomacy" and "management skills" will change that fact and their behavior. The teacher is there to teach, not to be buddy buddy with the kids or be their 2nd father or whatever. He is there to teach material in the curriculum. The kids are there to learn. The bad ones that disrupt this process need to be taught the hard way. Im not talking about simple things like talking a bit too much, or being an occassional ass. Im talking about psychotic behavior from bad apples that refuse to behave. |
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Scott in HK
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: now in Incheon..haven't changed my name yet
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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tokki wrote
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| There are kids who are just plain evil. |
then nothing will work...so why hit them...does hitting them make them less evil..????? |
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Scott in HK
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: now in Incheon..haven't changed my name yet
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| You just put some bad apples on the street. Then they end up breaking into cars or homes...possibly even getting into more serious crimes. |
and a good beating will put them on the path of the straight and narrow....get serious...
we don't hit prisoners to rehabilitate them....
even dog trainers are moving away from negative reinforcemtn for the training of puppies...
new teachers have to learn about classroom management....but if the school already has a system in place then they are not going to be walking into a war zone...they will be walking into a organized and effective classroom....good classroom management plans are school wide... |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott in HK wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You just put some bad apples on the street. Then they end up breaking into cars or homes...possibly even getting into more serious crimes. |
and a good beating will put them on the path of the straight and narrow....get serious...
we don't hit prisoners to rehabilitate them....
even dog trainers are moving away from negative reinforcemtn for the training of puppies...
new teachers have to learn about classroom management....but if the school already has a system in place then they are not going to be walking into a war zone...they will be walking into a organized and effective classroom....good classroom management plans are school wide... |
Tell ya something about crime. If there was only one punishment: death for every crime. Do you think the crime rate would drop? No appeals or other time/money wasters. Just a bullet to the head after the guilty verdict comes about.
Let's be realistic and say for "major" crimes the punishment is death. Would those crimes decrease?
Singapore is a country that doesn't screw around when it comes to crime. They have one of the lowest crime rates in the world. Wonder why?
Sometimes people need a little discipline. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Mr. Pink wrote: |
Singapore is a country that doesn't screw around when it comes to crime. They have one of the lowest crime rates in the world. Wonder why?
Sometimes people need a little discipline. |
Research has shown that the penalty for a crime is far less of a deterance than the likelyhood that one will be caught. Prison lengths in Japan are a fraction that of western terms generally, but the likelyhood a person will be arrested for a specific crime is far, far higher. Thus Japan enjoys a far lower crime rate. |
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Corky
Joined: 06 Jan 2004
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| No one is saying you have to buddy buddy with your students. There are alternatives to corporal punishment and as a teacher it's up to you to educate yourself. Why don't you just do some research? |
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dogbert
Joined: 29 Jan 2003
Location: Killbox 90210
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| Mr. Pink wrote: |
Singapore is a country that doesn't screw around when it comes to crime. They have one of the lowest crime rates in the world. Wonder why?
Sometimes people need a little discipline. |
Research has shown that the penalty for a crime is far less of a deterance than the likelyhood that one will be caught. Prison lengths in Japan are a fraction that of western terms generally, but the likelyhood a person will be arrested for a specific crime is far, far higher. Thus Japan enjoys a far lower crime rate. |
Are you claiming that's the only reason?
And do you have any statistics to illustrate your claim that the likelihood of (the correct) suspects being apprehended is higher in Japan than in wherever it is you were comparing it to? |
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rapier
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott in HK wrote: |
tokki wrote
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| There are kids who are just plain evil. |
then nothing will work...so why hit them...does hitting them make them less evil..????? |
Yes. Because they suddenly wake up to the fact that there are consequences for bad behavior.
Its human nature to get away with as much as you can. We have to draw a line, and effectively enforce it, to protect children from exploring their worst sides.
Congratulations, I see a lot of sane posts coming in on this topic... |
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buddy bradley
Joined: 24 Aug 2003
Location: The Beyond
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Scott in HK wrote: |
| we don't hit prisoners to rehabilitate them.... |
Exactly. How many prisoners leave prison rehabilitated? Prisoners should be shocked with jumper cables, and not fed kimchi chigae for breakfast. |
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Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:46 pm Post subject: |
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| dogbert wrote: |
Are you claiming that's the only reason?
And do you have any statistics to illustrate your claim that the likelihood of (the correct) suspects being apprehended is higher in Japan than in wherever it is you were comparing it to? |
It's probably not the only reason, but was but a single example. I could have just as easily turned around and shown that the U.S. has the longest prison sentences as well as hands down the most death penalties of any developed nation yet it also as the highest crime rate. But my example was meant to show that the chance of getting caught is more of a factor than the punishment.
When I get back in tonight, I'll see if I can find the statistical arrest rate for crimes. I'd do it now, but I'm heading out the door to work. |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Mon Apr 05, 2004 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Gord wrote: |
| dogbert wrote: |
Are you claiming that's the only reason?
And do you have any statistics to illustrate your claim that the likelihood of (the correct) suspects being apprehended is higher in Japan than in wherever it is you were comparing it to? |
It's probably not the only reason, but was but a single example. I could have just as easily turned around and shown that the U.S. has the longest prison sentences as well as hands down the most death penalties of any developed nation yet it also as the highest crime rate. But my example was meant to show that the chance of getting caught is more of a factor than the punishment.
When I get back in tonight, I'll see if I can find the statistical arrest rate for crimes. I'd do it now, but I'm heading out the door to work. |
Gord the thing about the US is death row can be 10-15yrs depending on how many appeals the person uses.
In countries like Singapore, the avenue of appeals is done very quickly. People get a consciousness of NOT doing bad things when they know the state doesn't screw around on punishments.
The same goes with in the classroom. Kids that know nothing will happen to them if they go nuts, of course they will act up. If kids know punishment will be dealt swiftly for stepping out of line...well they get conditioned to behave.
We can argue this all day. Corporal punishment is about beliefs. Arguing it, is like arguing about abortion. If I am pro life and you are pro abortion...will we ever see eye to eye? |
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