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cwflaneur
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
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 Posted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| cwflaneur wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Okay I checked that out.
The link gives four types of employment: Dependent employment, self-employed, total employment, and unknown. (I'm mentioning this so you can see that I actually read it).
There is no data for dependent, self-employed or unknown for Korea.
So we are back to total employment (which would include both full and part time jobs). Which the link specifically notes can not be used for comparison purposes.
But never mind that for now.
The figure your link gives has Korea at 45.9 hours a week from 2010 .
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No, you clicked the wrong tab heading. Go one down, it's under the tab heading labelled JOB TYPE. Click that and select "Full-time employment". Then you'll see Korea is at 49.2 hours per week; 2nd highest on the chart. 49.2 hours for only full-time jobs is a high number considering that we're talking about averages: For comparison, the UK is at 42.6 hours/week (no info for US or Japan, for those who care).
The number has declined very little over the past few years, either, so making a point about this chart being one-year old isn't going to do much good. Koreans are neck-and-neck with developing Mexico, but after that the number suddenly plunges all the way down to 44.6 with Chile, and of course those nice West European countries at the bottom with the averages of 38 etc.
The bottom line is Korean workers are the second longest-working workers in the (OECD) world, "interpret" the number however ya like. |
But that's only PAID work and only for full-time employment.
According to the OECD 2011 link they do the least unpaid work. And when you add the unpaid work and work hours together they equate to the average OECD country. |
Is it now? Not according to anything that is written on that page. |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| cwflaneur wrote: |
Korea is a miserable place for its citizens. I suppose I have met thousands (literally) of adult Koreans in my time tutoring English to them, and there is no place in the world where people have such a resigned, quiet despair about their options in life... in the developed world, at least. In fact, there are plenty of poorer countries where people in shabbier circumstances seem overall pretty happy. No, I'm not promoting any myths about the beauty of poverty, but in the case of Korea this is something I did notice when I started meeting so many of them. Life is a series of duties for them; pleasure and enjoyment are just something a little extra, a bone that society throws you if you're a good dog, and generally in the form of alcohol and in the presence of co-workers. The problem is that liquor doesn't actually produce happiness, it just offers a brief simulation of it. It's a good thing when you already are happy, not a good thing if you're miserable when sober.
A culture built on judgment, shame, hierarchy, acquisitiveness, appearances, conformity, and workaholism isn't going to yield as much happiness as a laid-back culture where people have enough time to spend with their friends and family. Simple. Only an apologist with the rosiest of rose-tinted glasses can't understand this. |
True, but we may end up eating our hat (literally) at embracing those qualities in the lean times that are ahead, and in fact, the lean times that are coming may be due in part to those qualities.
Not that this guarantees Korea will be some sort of paradise.
The qualities you listed aren't the only qualities, that is NOT what their culture is solely built on, there are many positive ones- family values, shared sacrifice, community responsibility, collective action, duty, family honor.
(Not that other cultures lack those things, nor that Korea doesn't always follow those things to the best)
Conversely the "laid back" culture may have some things it is built on- entitlement, legalism, toxic individualism, moral ambiguity, hedonism, live-for-the moment thinking, sloth, and vanity.
There may be a time latter in life you wished you were a bit more of a workaholic in your youth when you had the energy for such things.
The point is, don't cackle until the egg is laid. |
I think most of what both of you wrote rings true.  I just have to remind Steel Rails that "vanity" in fact is very much part of Korean culture and is certainly one of the factors that causes misery here. The obsession with being stick like for females comes not only from them but from the men who for some reason want women to look like them in their shape - not feminine in their shape.
I put it down to the pervasive masculine culture here as opposed to the surprising element of Japanese culture which has an image of male dominance but is actually far more attuned to the feminine. Japanese men appreciate curvy women far more than you'd think and Japanese literature from hundreds of years ago is devoted to celebrations of the female body and feminine beauty unlike the homosociality of Korean culture.
I have seen few men back home or other countries constantly look at themselves in hand mirrors or shiny reflective surfaces or be so obsessed with hand cream and primping. Koreans are incredibly vain generally and seem to be superficial about appearances in ways that generally are confined to certain areas of the US. Looking smart is one thing - having a primping, preening attitude is something else. |
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Stout
Joined: 28 May 2011
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:28 am Post subject: |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| cwflaneur wrote: |
Korea is a miserable place for its citizens. I suppose I have met thousands (literally) of adult Koreans in my time tutoring English to them, and there is no place in the world where people have such a resigned, quiet despair about their options in life... in the developed world, at least. In fact, there are plenty of poorer countries where people in shabbier circumstances seem overall pretty happy. No, I'm not promoting any myths about the beauty of poverty, but in the case of Korea this is something I did notice when I started meeting so many of them. Life is a series of duties for them; pleasure and enjoyment are just something a little extra, a bone that society throws you if you're a good dog, and generally in the form of alcohol and in the presence of co-workers. The problem is that liquor doesn't actually produce happiness, it just offers a brief simulation of it. It's a good thing when you already are happy, not a good thing if you're miserable when sober.
A culture built on judgment, shame, hierarchy, acquisitiveness, appearances, conformity, and workaholism isn't going to yield as much happiness as a laid-back culture where people have enough time to spend with their friends and family. Simple. Only an apologist with the rosiest of rose-tinted glasses can't understand this. |
True, but we may end up eating our hat (literally) at embracing those qualities in the lean times that are ahead, and in fact, the lean times that are coming may be due in part to those qualities.
Not that this guarantees Korea will be some sort of paradise.
The qualities you listed aren't the only qualities, that is NOT what their culture is solely built on, there are many positive ones- family values, shared sacrifice, community responsibility, collective action, duty, family honor.
(Not that other cultures lack those things, nor that Korea doesn't always follow those things to the best)
Conversely the "laid back" culture may have some things it is built on- entitlement, legalism, toxic individualism, moral ambiguity, hedonism, live-for-the moment thinking, sloth, and vanity.
There may be a time latter in life you wished you were a bit more of a workaholic in your youth when you had the energy for such things.
The point is, don't cackle until the egg is laid. |
I think most of what both of you wrote rings true. I just have to remind Steel Rails that "vanity" in fact is very much part of Korean culture and is certainly one of the factors that causes misery here. The obsession with being stick like for females comes not only from them but from the men who for some reason want women to look like them in their shape - not feminine in their shape.
I put it down to the pervasive masculine culture here as opposed to the surprising element of Japanese culture which has an image of male dominance but is actually far more attuned to the feminine. Japanese men appreciate curvy women far more than you'd think and Japanese literature from hundreds of years ago is devoted to celebrations of the female body and feminine beauty unlike the homosociality of Korean culture.
I have seen few men back home or other countries constantly look at themselves in hand mirrors or shiny reflective surfaces or be so obsessed with hand cream and primping. Koreans are incredibly vain generally and seem to be superficial about appearances in ways that generally are confined to certain areas of the US. Looking smart is one thing - having a primping, preening attitude is something else. |
Agree with this- you have your primpers and preeners in Harajuku and Shibuya, but the thing is on a different level here (as with the prevelance of plastic surgery).
Also in Japan a lot of folks will style themselves in direct defiance/dismissal of the stepped-outta-a-fashion-victim-rally, and deliberately will emphasize clean lines and an attractive understated look. These people often are up on things like world lit., philosophy, art, politics, etc, and have something more than a cookie-cutter take on life. In other words, they're actively looking for something better than what society/the gov't/mass media/educational system/globalization is trying to hand them. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| T-J wrote: |
| I'm not a recruiter. |
How are you making 10 million per month? Do you own a hagwon?
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| TJ and I don't get along, but I'd never say that he's failed as a parent for making the choice to raise his kids here. If I recall, he said he made roughly 5 times the salary of an average teacher. Taking a guess, I'd put that at 10 mill a month. 120,000,000 per year. And I have no idea if his wife even works. But just alone pretty much guarantees that he's going to be able to afford a decent lifestyle for his family. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| cwflaneur wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| cwflaneur wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
Okay I checked that out.
The link gives four types of employment: Dependent employment, self-employed, total employment, and unknown. (I'm mentioning this so you can see that I actually read it).
There is no data for dependent, self-employed or unknown for Korea.
So we are back to total employment (which would include both full and part time jobs). Which the link specifically notes can not be used for comparison purposes.
But never mind that for now.
The figure your link gives has Korea at 45.9 hours a week from 2010 .
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No, you clicked the wrong tab heading. Go one down, it's under the tab heading labelled JOB TYPE. Click that and select "Full-time employment". Then you'll see Korea is at 49.2 hours per week; 2nd highest on the chart. 49.2 hours for only full-time jobs is a high number considering that we're talking about averages: For comparison, the UK is at 42.6 hours/week (no info for US or Japan, for those who care).
The number has declined very little over the past few years, either, so making a point about this chart being one-year old isn't going to do much good. Koreans are neck-and-neck with developing Mexico, but after that the number suddenly plunges all the way down to 44.6 with Chile, and of course those nice West European countries at the bottom with the averages of 38 etc.
The bottom line is Korean workers are the second longest-working workers in the (OECD) world, "interpret" the number however ya like. |
But that's only PAID work and only for full-time employment.
According to the OECD 2011 link they do the least unpaid work. And when you add the unpaid work and work hours together they equate to the average OECD country. |
Is it now? Not according to anything that is written on that page. |
I said according to MY link not yours. |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| T-J wrote: |
| I'm not a recruiter. |
How are you making 10 million per month? Do you own a hagwon?
| Captain Corea wrote: |
| TJ and I don't get along, but I'd never say that he's failed as a parent for making the choice to raise his kids here. If I recall, he said he made roughly 5 times the salary of an average teacher. Taking a guess, I'd put that at 10 mill a month. 120,000,000 per year. And I have no idea if his wife even works. But just alone pretty much guarantees that he's going to be able to afford a decent lifestyle for his family. |
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World traveler, to my knowledge TJ owns and runs a Hakwon or a school. He works damn hard and earns a good income. Good for him. |
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cwflaneur
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
But that's only PAID work and only for full-time employment.
| cwflaneur wrote: |
]
Is it now? Not according to anything that is written on that page. |
I said according to MY link not yours. |
Are you just pretending to miss the point every time your respond? It's been like four times in a row, now, I think.
I bolded the point you made about paid work. There was no specification regarding paid or unpaid hours in my link which we were discussing.
To recap, for those who don't want to wade through the foregoing exchange: click here http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=ANHRS and then click the link inside the blue margin on the left side of the page, "Average usual weekly hours worked on the main job", then go at the tab near the top labelled "job type", select "full-time employment". Then click the downward pointing arrow under 2010, which will rank all OECD countries from highest to lowest. Korea is second from the top with an average of 49.2 hours per week at full-time jobs, and there is no reference to a distinction being made between paid or unpaid hours; making their employees the 2nd longest-working among OECD nations.
And that will come as no surprise to those of us who have lived and worked among them. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| cwflaneur wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
But that's only PAID work and only for full-time employment.
| cwflaneur wrote: |
]
Is it now? Not according to anything that is written on that page. |
I said according to MY link not yours. |
Are you just pretending to miss the point every time your respond? It's been like four times in a row, now, I think.
I bolded the point you made about paid work. There was no specification regarding paid or unpaid hours in my link which we were discussing.
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And there was no specification regarding full-time and part time workers which we were initially discussing. I pulled up a link that showed that overall Korean workers work the least amount of unpaid hours and it was only after that you suddenly switched to talking about full-time workers.
Sure if you focus on one particular group out of the entire populace you can make a case for just about anything. But we never were talking about just full-time workers until you decided to focus on that as it was only within those narrow specifications that you had something of a case
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cwflaneur
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| cwflaneur wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
But that's only PAID work and only for full-time employment.
| cwflaneur wrote: |
]
Is it now? Not according to anything that is written on that page. |
I said according to MY link not yours. |
Are you just pretending to miss the point every time your respond? It's been like four times in a row, now, I think.
I bolded the point you made about paid work. There was no specification regarding paid or unpaid hours in my link which we were discussing.
. |
And there was no specification regarding full-time and part time workers which we were initially discussing. I pulled up a link that showed that overall Korean workers work the least amount of unpaid hours and it was only after that you suddenly switched to talking about full-time workers.
Sure if you focus on one particular group out of the entire populace you can make a case for just about anything. But we never were talking about just full-time workers until you decided to focus on that as it was only within those narrow specifications that you had something of a case
. |
Aside from college students, who exactly works part-time jobs in Korea? Not very many. I'm going to go on a limb and say hardly anyone (it's telling that they only use a German word for it, "arbeite").
The first link I had posted was declared invalid for comparison purposes because it took no account for different sources of income. Yet, neither does yours, which by the way appears to have been written originally by Koreans, with an English translation on the second page, and then submitted to the OECD. That is not the case with my second link, which has the full breakdown of stats among the various OECD members.
Looking only at full-time work (which basically excludes interns still in college and the kids working at Family Mart) is where you will learn something about corporate culture in Korea. Adults working in soul-crushing offices where Confucius meets Franz Kafka. This is what's relevant, because this is the direction in which aspiring young victims of the Korean educational system are being channelled by parents and society.
The near-entirety of the adult, white-and-blue-collar workforce in Korea is not exactly what I would call "narrow specifications". |
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jvalmer
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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| cwflaneur wrote: |
| Adults working in soul-crushing offices |
This really annoys me when people say this. Most of the world would kill to have these 'soul-crushing' office jobs. Just indicates how spoiled we are. |
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cwflaneur
Joined: 04 Aug 2009
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:28 am Post subject: |
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| jvalmer wrote: |
| cwflaneur wrote: |
| Adults working in soul-crushing offices |
This really annoys me when people say this. Most of the world would kill to have these 'soul-crushing' office jobs. Just indicates how spoiled we are. |
I'm just saying that many Korean accountants, civil servants, engineers etc would kill to have conditions like those of their counterparts in Western countries.
I agree that physical privation can be much worse than existential ennui. Still, there must be a reason for that suicide rate. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:48 am Post subject: |
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| cwflaneur wrote: |
| jvalmer wrote: |
| cwflaneur wrote: |
| Adults working in soul-crushing offices |
This really annoys me when people say this. Most of the world would kill to have these 'soul-crushing' office jobs. Just indicates how spoiled we are. |
I'm just saying that many Korean accountants, civil servants, engineers etc would kill to have conditions like those of their counterparts in Western countries.
I agree that physical privation can be much worse than existential ennui. Still, there must be a reason for that suicide rate. |
And you figure it to be office jobs? |
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Konglishman
Joined: 14 Sep 2007
Location: Nanjing
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 4:43 am Post subject: |
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| Adam Carolla wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| T-J wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
[
Is under reporting of suicide going on in South Korea too? I would say yes.
And overall, the statistics point to proportionally more suicides in Korea than in Japan.
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Since you are not a reputable source by any definition of the word, it doesn't matter what you say.
And "proportionally" doesn't mean much. Population has to be taken into account. |
Whenever someone brings up the suicide statistics I can't help but think of the quote,"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics."
I'm not trying to belittle the problem. One suicide is one too many and each is a tragic, needless loss.
However, let's look at the numbers, shall we?
There are a couple links already in this thread let's say that Korea's rate is 30 per 100,000 and the rate in the U.S. is 10 per 100,000. We read this and say OMG! three times as many!
Let's take another look shall we?
In the U.S. (pop 300m) that is 30,000 suicides.
In Korea (pop 50m) that is 15,000 suicides.
But the rate is three times per 100,000 you counter.
Yes, and I can comprehend 30 vs. 10. They are real numbers and the difference seems tangible. But is it? Is it really? Remember those aren't really real numbers they are a fraction of 100,000. We don't usually think in terms of 100,000. In truth it boarders on our ability to perceive what the number actually represents.
Let's put it back in terms that we are more accustomed to a fraction of 100 or a percentage.
In the U.S. the percentage of the population that commits suicide is 0.01%.
In Korea the percentage of the population that commits suicide is 0.03%.
As I stated in the beginning one is too many in either country and yes the rate in Korea is three times as high. However, generally speaking a difference of 0.02% in anything does not set off alarm bells for me.
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That is a very long way around to say pretty much nothing. Three times as many is still three times as as many, no matter how you slice it. Thirty suicides a day is more than one per hour. Fractionalize that. |
Yes three times as many is still three times as many. But more is still more. According to the link TWICE as many people kill themselves in the U.S as in Korea. Again population difference has to be taken into account. |
Yes, quite.
Country A has a billion people, and ten murders.
Country B has 100 people, and 9 murders.
Clearly, murder is more of an issue in country A. After all, more is still more, right? |
You must be joking, right?
Allow me to explain. In country A, there is a (10/billion)x100% = 0.000001% probability of getting murdered. In contrast, in country B, there is a (9/100)x100% = 9% probability of getting murdered. So, clearly, country A is the best place to live if you want to avoid getting murdered. But don't listen to me. Go ahead and move to country B. After all, more is still more. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| cwflaneur wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| cwflaneur wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
But that's only PAID work and only for full-time employment.
| cwflaneur wrote: |
]
Is it now? Not according to anything that is written on that page. |
I said according to MY link not yours. |
Are you just pretending to miss the point every time your respond? It's been like four times in a row, now, I think.
I bolded the point you made about paid work. There was no specification regarding paid or unpaid hours in my link which we were discussing.
. |
And there was no specification regarding full-time and part time workers which we were initially discussing. I pulled up a link that showed that overall Korean workers work the least amount of unpaid hours and it was only after that you suddenly switched to talking about full-time workers.
Sure if you focus on one particular group out of the entire populace you can make a case for just about anything. But we never were talking about just full-time workers until you decided to focus on that as it was only within those narrow specifications that you had something of a case
. |
Aside from college students, who exactly works part-time jobs in Korea? Not very many. I'm going to go on a limb and say hardly anyone (it's telling that they only use a German word for it, "arbeite").
The first link I had posted was declared invalid for comparison purposes because it took no account for different sources of income. Yet, neither does yours, which by the way appears to have been written originally by Koreans, with an English translation on the second page, and then submitted to the OECD. That is not the case with my second link, which has the full breakdown of stats among the various OECD members.
". |
Only it doesn't Looking at the different employment tables we can see plenty of gaps among the various members where the information should be...thus making the link further invalid for comparison purposes. My link on the other hand which as far as I can tell was translated into Korean as opposed to being written by them. takes into account the entire workforce working hours and yes its shows they have the second longest working paid hours. But when unpaid time is taken into account they match the OECD average.
Furthermore not only your link is suspect but your motivations are too.
You said quite clearly and several times that you didn't want to get into a battle of the links..yet when you find something that supports you go on for several pages. Someone who truly didn't care wouldn't waste so much time and energy making post after post after post. Seriously do you dislike Korea that much? Because I really see no other motivation. You said yourself that you have no interest in proving anything and no motivation to do so several pages ago.
If it means that much to you...okay then Korea is horrible. |
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