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| Should I jail him? |
| Hell yeah he was asking for it! |
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90% |
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| No, you won't get your money any faster |
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| Total Votes : 74 |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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 Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:16 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
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| Then say we are lacking some freedoms (which is true). But a slave has NO freedom to leave under any circumstance. We are free to just get on and leave the country. That is freedom. Maybe not 100% freedom to do whatever you want, but enough freedom to make "slave" an inappropriate term. |
I will continue to use slave because that is what it is. Perhaps, the hagwon owner is more of a slave owner than we are to a slave who is abused.
It doesn't matter if coffee is served black or with cream, it is still called coffee. Your association without only variety of slavery doesn't mean what we are doing is not another form of slavery.
A more productive discussion would be what to do with the freedoms you and I agree aren't given to us. How do we stop this ridiculous ritual of having to get a release letter? |
You will continue to misuse slave because your definition and the official definition are different. People will continue to correct you because you are wrong. Your definition of the word is wrong. Slaves have no freedom to leave. Unless this is true, you are not talking about slavery. Limited freedoms? Yes. An unfair situation? Yes again. But not slavery. There is still real slavery in the world. Those people cannot leave and don't get paid. You are not like that, you can leave. You are not:
1: a person held in servitude as the chattel of another
2: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence
3: a device (as the printer of a computer) that is directly responsive to another
This is the Webster's official definition. Until they update it, you need to change the way you use the word or you will be using it incorrectly.
| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| You do realize this is how it works for migrant workers in much of the world, right? |
I never had to get a release letter in Japan. I worked at 2-3 schools per year and I taught privately. I reported my income to immigration. No release letters needed. Do people need release letters in other countries? Possibly, but not all places over the world as your post implies does this.
In the US, does a person have to get a release letter? |
Should they change it? Yes. Is it silly? Of course. Should the US change theirs too? Yup (but I don't think you actually need to do a visa run there). Does a system in another country invalidate your argument? No, it does not.
The E-2 visa laws need to be changed. |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:21 am Post subject: |
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| Plenty of robberies are premeditated. |
You don't know how to read within context, do you? A robber plans to rob a store. That part is premeditated. They do not know the customers coming into the store though. That part is not premeditated.
Do I have to reference forensic law to show you levels of manslaughter charges to prove this? Come on now. You are picking every strawman argument to try to discredit me.
It makes you look dumb in the end.
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| A better test: can you just leave and go home? |
A slave can do this, but it is harder when you are abused and you see your friends get hanged.
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| 2: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence |
That sounds like a pretty good one there. Thanks for helping me.
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| someone with limited job mobility |
Oh a duh....a duh... oh duh....a slave? A slave has limited job mobility. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:32 am Post subject: |
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The more foriegners in Korea stick up for themselves and the more we try to get hakwan owners punished for their shady actions, the more the hakwan owners are going to realise we are not pushovers and that there are consequences.
If a doormat had big viscious fangs, I wouldn't want to wipe my feet on it. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:51 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
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| Plenty of robberies are premeditated. |
You don't know how to read within context, do you? A robber plans to rob a store. That part is premeditated. They do not know the customers coming into the store though. That part is not premeditated.
Do I have to reference forensic law to show you levels of manslaughter charges to prove this? Come on now. You are picking every strawman argument to try to discredit me.
It makes you look dumb in the end.
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So a girl raped by a family friend is not a victim because the target was known ahead of time? You're the one that brought up:
| Quote: |
| A hagwon owner that doesn't pay you doesn't "accidentally" keep your money. It is premeditated, where as any gun robbery is merely a case of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. |
Premeditation has noting to do with the definition of victim, that's why I said it was a moot point. However, there are many crimes where the victim is known ahead of time, especially in the case of sexual abuse. People have also been known to rob friends, neighbors, employees etc. As the target of crime, these people are all victims by definition, regardless of whether the target was decided ahead of time. It's basic, premeditated robbery, and the OP was a victim.
Calling me dumb after a comment like that makes you look even worse.
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| A better test: can you just leave and go home? |
A slave can do this, but it is harder when you are abused and you see your friends get hanged.
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No, a slave cannot legally leave without his master's permission.
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| 2: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence |
That sounds like a pretty good one there. Thanks for helping me.
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I doubt very much that you were completely subservient to your boss. Yea, he has some control over you at work, but none at home and could not force you to stay.
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| someone with limited job mobility |
Oh a duh....a duh... oh duh....a slave? A slave has limited job mobility. |
No, a slave has NO job mobility without the release of his master. An E-2 visa holder can go back home (or to any other country) without his boss's blessing. How is that so hard to understand? |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 1:21 am Post subject: |
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| So a girl raped by a family friend is not a victim because the target was known ahead of time? You're the one that brought up: |
1. I never brought up girls (or boys).
2. I never used the word "victim", I was the one supposedly misusing the word "slave".
As for not knowing something ahead of time, that would make them a victim. Being premeditated has nothing to do with this. Even though I didn't bring up the word "victim", that doesn't mean I wouldn't see there being a victim in both scenarios brought up, the store and rape one.
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| there are many crimes where the victim is known ahead of time, especially in the case of sexual abuse. |
That would be a post for another thread. Why the red herring? Does that somehow make you feel better? It sure doesn't establish or address anything I was pointing out. Why don't we talk about coat shopping for winter while we are at it?
Read back and come back to comment if you want, WITHIN CONTEXT.
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| No, a slave cannot legally leave without his master's permission. |
Hence, we need a letter of release. Are you starting to get it now? OMG, Lady Gaga.
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| I doubt very much that you were completely subservient to your boss. |
1. Get letter of release, lose a month's pay
2. Get a month's pay in court, no letter of release
I would call the above two subservience when I couldn't do the following.
3. Get a month's pay outside of court and either letter of release without trouble or no need for a letter of release to move on.
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| NO job mobility without the release of his master. |
You have covered all positions haven't you. Red herrings, wrong assumptions, misinformation, and you are outlining my case at the same time. Well done, it's like arguing/debating with a multiple choice test. Take our pick?
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| An E-2 visa holder can go back home (or to any other country) without his boss's blessing. How is that so hard to understand? |
I wasn't referring to leaving which would be like suicide compared to your analogy. What part of that is so hard to understand? You need to read back where I already covered this. If you want to work in Korea without the ordeal of leaving the country you need the letter of release. This is not a freedom given to us. HELLO!!! |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:04 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
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| So a girl raped by a family friend is not a victim because the target was known ahead of time? You're the one that brought up: |
1. I never brought up girls (or boys).
2. I never used the word "victim", I was the one supposedly misusing the word "slave".
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You were arguing against the term victim.
| koreatimes wrote: |
As for not knowing something ahead of time, that would make them a victim. Being premeditated has nothing to do with this. Even though I didn't bring up the word "victim", that doesn't mean I wouldn't see there being a victim in both scenarios brought up, the store and rape one.
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| there are many crimes where the victim is known ahead of time, especially in the case of sexual abuse. |
That would be a post for another thread. Why the red herring? Does that somehow make you feel better? It sure doesn't establish or address anything I was pointing out. Why don't we talk about coat shopping for winter while we are at it?
Read back and come back to comment if you want, WITHIN CONTEXT.
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Again, YOU were the one bringing up premeditation in terms of victim status, despite the definition of the word. If YOU want to explain how the context of what you said is different from how I addressed it, I'm all ears. I even said it was a moot point twice (now 3 times) but you still insist on arguing something that is irrelevant. Then you turn around and blame me for the deviation.
| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| No, a slave cannot legally leave without his master's permission. |
Hence, we need a letter of release. Are you starting to get it now? OMG, Lady Gaga.
| Quote: |
| I doubt very much that you were completely subservient to your boss. |
1. Get letter of release, lose a month's pay
2. Get a month's pay in court, no letter of release
I would call the above two subservience when I couldn't do the following.
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AGAIN you can LEGALLY LEAVE. The specific right of future employment in Korea without leaving the country is also irrelevant. The definition of slavery is that you cannot leave (or do anything) without permission from your master. In Korea, you can leave your employer without permission. That's not slavery and that what the other posters were talking about.
| koreatimes wrote: |
3. Get a month's pay outside of court and either letter of release without trouble or no need for a letter of release to move on.
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| NO job mobility without the release of his master. |
You have covered all positions haven't you. Red herrings, wrong assumptions, misinformation, and you are outlining my case at the same time. Well done, it's like arguing/debating with a multiple choice test. Take our pick?
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You have:
Brought up premeditation to counter my argument of using "victim" as a word to describe the OP. (your "red herring" not mine)
Failed to accurately address the definition of either slave of victim in how it relates to the OP.
Assumed that some limits to job mobility is the definition of slave even after I have provided proof that it's not.
Now you've failed to provide any examples of any of these things you're accusing me of. Seems to me like you're realizing you're wrong, but continue to argue rather than admit you might be wrong.
| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| An E-2 visa holder can go back home (or to any other country) without his boss's blessing. How is that so hard to understand? |
I wasn't referring to leaving which would be like suicide compared to your analogy. What part of that is so hard to understand? You need to read back where I already covered this. If you want to work in Korea without the ordeal of leaving the country you need the letter of release. This is not a freedom given to us. HELLO!!! |
But it's not slavery either. And that's my point. A point you STILL argue despite a dictionary definition.
Hi! |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:17 am Post subject: |
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| You were arguing against the term victim. |
Correct, now what?
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| Again, YOU were the one bringing up premeditation in terms of victim status |
No, I brought it up to explain the possibility of the OPPOSITE happening. A person robbing a store doesn't plan on shooting a specific person (worker, customer would be less likely). In that particular case, it is not premeditated. By saying it is not premeditated, IN THAT ONE CASE, I am not making an overall statement that all shootings are NOT premeditated.
You simply didn't take the time to understand what I said and jumped on whatever statement I made without finding the context it was in. Why you aren't more carefully looking at it now, I don't know.
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| you still insist on arguing something that is irrelevant |
Because you keep stating false information as if I stated it. I am correcting you. I did not say what you are asserting. Look back. Comment WITHIN CONTEXT.
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| AGAIN you can LEGALLY LEAVE. |
This was already replied to (several times). Look back if you want my position on it.
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| The definition of slavery is that you cannot leave |
You cannot leave an employer's school and go to another school without a letter of release (in the context I have already laid out).
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| Failed to accurately address the definition of either slave of victim in how it relates to the OP. |
Adequate definitions have already been given. You can look back. If you are addressing the OP, then I will be more than happy to stop this discussion and go back on topic. I felt the thread's intent had been addressed and as a group we started talking about other things. If someone wants to go back to the main intent of the thread, no problem.
Send the jerk to jail. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
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| You do realize this is how it works for migrant workers in much of the world, right? |
I never had to get a release letter in Japan. I worked at 2-3 schools per year and I taught privately. I reported my income to immigration. No release letters needed. Do people need release letters in other countries? Possibly, but not all places over the world as your post implies does this.
In the US, does a person have to get a release letter? |
The release thing is pretty silly. E-2 status should remain valid as long as you have a legitimate employer. I don't see the need for the letter. |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:50 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
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| You were arguing against the term victim. |
Correct, now what?
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| Again, YOU were the one bringing up premeditation in terms of victim status |
No, I brought it up to explain the possibility of the OPPOSITE happening. A person robbing a store doesn't plan on shooting a specific person (worker, customer would be less likely). In that particular case, it is not premeditated. By saying it is not premeditated, IN THAT ONE CASE, I am not making an overall statement that all shootings are NOT premeditated.
You simply didn't take the time to understand what I said and jumped on whatever statement I made without finding the context it was in. Why you aren't more carefully looking at it now, I don't know.
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The context you were using was as follows:
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| just like the OP didn't plan on getting screwed out of his money? |
You don't give a robber your goods and expect them to return them. However, we all enter work environments where we typically give labor without payment, and we expect it later on.
Two COMPLETELY different scenarios. A hagwon owner that doesn't pay you doesn't "accidentally" keep your money. It is premeditated, where as any gun robbery is merely a case of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. |
It seems clear from the quote that intention seems to define your argument against using the word victim. If that wasn't your point, please explain it to me, because it doesn't seem to counter my argument of using the word "victim".
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| you still insist on arguing something that is irrelevant |
Because you keep stating false information as if I stated it. I am correcting you. I did not say what you are asserting. Look back. Comment WITHIN CONTEXT.
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How is my information false?
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| AGAIN you can LEGALLY LEAVE. |
This was already replied to (several times). Look back if you want my position on it.
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| The definition of slavery is that you cannot leave |
You cannot leave an employer's school and go to another school without a letter of release (in the context I have already laid out).
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And that is not slavery by definition. That's only a restriction of rights. They are not, by definition, the same thing.
Slavery is removal of all rights including the right to leave, under any circumstance. Once you give someone a way out, it is no longer slavery, as the "master" no longer has control over the "slave". This is in the definition. It's irrefutable.
It cant be "1: a person held in servitude as the chattel of another" because they are not held, they have the freedom to leave, even if it's not on the best conditions to the teacher.
It can't be "2: one that is completely subservient to a dominating influence" because having the freedom to leave (which we have by law) means the teacher is not "completely subservient".
Regardless of what you think to be the definition of the word slave, no one is a slave here, and that's why everyone got their panties in a bunch over it.
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| Failed to accurately address the definition of either slave of victim in how it relates to the OP. |
Adequate definitions have already been given. You can look back. If you are addressing the OP, then I will be more than happy to stop this discussion and go back on topic. I felt the thread's intent had been addressed and as a group we started talking about other things. If someone wants to go back to the main intent of the thread, no problem.
Send the jerk to jail. |
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Vix
Joined: 18 Jun 2010
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:06 am Post subject: |
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So I tried to sign the contract to jail him today but they have now told me it may not be in my best interests. They have told me he has no assets worth seizing as he doesn't own his car or house. If I jail him he won't be able to work and pay me the frustratingly little he's offering. He did eventually pay that though yesterday. I think I am screwed  |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| It seems clear from the quote that intention seems to define your argument against using the word victim. |
Yes, I was against labeling E2 teachers "victims". I already confirmed this in my previous post. Now what? Feel free to continue with whatever case you are making here.
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| Slavery is removal of all rights including the right to leave |
Slaves did leave though. The abuse is the strongest association we have with slavery, but it doesn't mean there weren't slaves who were not abused. Are they somehow not slaves then? You will have a hard time convincing me of that.
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| Once you give someone a way out, it is no longer slavery, as the "master" no longer has control over the "slave". |
Who is giving whom a way out? Immigration is giving the employer a way out, not the employee.
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| having the freedom to leave |
You don't have the freedom to leave within the context I have outlined (E2 visa holder, new job, no flights out and back in, etc...)
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| no one is a slave here |
Then work for only one employer. I don't care that you don't understand for your sake. I do care though that enough people understand and agree with me so we can make some changes.
Last edited by koreatimes on Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:19 am Post subject: |
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| Vix wrote: |
| So I tried to sign the contract to jail him today but they have now told me it may not be in my best interests. They have told me he has no assets worth seizing as he doesn't own his car or house. If I jail him he won't be able to work and pay me the frustratingly little he's offering. He did eventually pay that though yesterday. I think I am screwed |
You don't need to get the money. He needs to face the consequences of enslaving you for a second month knowing he didn't have the funds (from the first month). The immigration offices need to wisen up and change the system so we can earn 5 million from multiple employers instead of coming to Korea on the premise 1 employer will pay us 100%. Your situation is a perfect example to set things straight, and I hope you go ahead with it. Let the Korean system figure a way to house slave owners (and their families). |
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akcrono
Joined: 11 Mar 2010
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| koreatimes wrote: |
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| It seems clear from the quote that intention seems to define your argument against using the word victim. |
Yes, I was against labeling E2 teachers "victims". I already confirmed this in my previous post. Now what? Feel free to continue with whatever case you are making here.
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Not all E-2 teachers, just the one who get robbed by their employers. Again, those are textbook "victims" by definition.
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| Slavery is removal of all rights including the right to leave |
Slaves did leave though. The abuse is the strongest association we have with slavery, but it doesn't mean there weren't slaves who were not abused. Are they somehow not slaves then? You will have a hard time convincing me of that.
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Why are you bringing up abuse? Abuse has nothing to do with slavery or its definition. Slaves never "left", at least not in a legal sense. They were either freed by someone else or ran away on their own, which was illegal (unlike English teachers).
| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Once you give someone a way out, it is no longer slavery, as the "master" no longer has control over the "slave". |
Who is giving whom a way out? Immigration is giving the employer a way out, not the employee.
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Immi is giving the employee a way out by waving the 30 day policy if the contract was violated. Regardless, you can legally leave the country at any time. Just don't expect any of your money.
| koreatimes wrote: |
| Quote: |
| having the freedom to leave |
You don't have the freedom to leave within the context I have outlined (E2 visa holder, new job, no flights out and back in, etc...)
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But that's only 1 very specific situation in which you only want a very specific outcome. You can leave in so many other ways that to call someone in the position a slave is inappropriate.
| koreatimes wrote: |
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| no one is a slave here |
Then work for only one employer. I don't care that you don't understand for your sake. I do care though that enough people understand and agree with me so we can make some changes. |
Who else feels the OP was a slave? |
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koreatimes
Joined: 07 Jun 2011
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:16 am Post subject: |
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| Abuse has nothing to do with slavery or its definition. |
Slaves didn't endure abuse? If they tried to escape, some were not hanged? Ok. Now I know you lost it.
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| Slaves never "left", at least not in a legal sense. |
Well, duh!!! That's the point I am making.
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| They were either freed by someone else or ran away on their own, which was illegal (unlike English teachers). |
Unlike what? English teachers can still do "illegal" things in Korea like leave a school and not get a letter of release. I am not advocating it, but saying it is possible and illegal. Until Korea does away with this letter of release crap, your argument here holds no water.
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| Immi is giving the employee a way out by waving the 30 day policy if the contract was violated. |
What kind of mixed up logic is that? A hagwon owner abuses their slave, and immigration is so nice they won't make the slave teach another month. How kind and thoughtful of them. Are you calendar in disguise?
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| But that's only 1 very specific situation in which you only want a very specific outcome. |
Very specific? It applies to 100% of the teachers who want to leave. It's useless debating this with you.
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| Who else feels the OP was a slave? |
I never stated the OP was a slave. I was referring to the letter of release, not the OP. Stop making foolish statements and insinuating I made them. |
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Mr Lee's Monkey
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 4:34 am Post subject: Sorry to hear it, Vix. |
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| Did they tell you today the guy has to give you 300,000 a month and will they hold him to that? Have they said they will provide some sort of enforcement? Will you be here in the country long enough to get what he owes you if you go the dribs and drabs route? Is there still the possibility of jailing him? I know.... sorry - you probably feel pretty bummed and all these questions.... |
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