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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:46 pm Post subject: |
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| The Floating World wrote: |
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| Also look at the market size of the various cities. Compare England to America and there is a massive difference. Use the old noodle. |
Wow. The Ignorance.
Soccer is huge in the whole of Europe and the rest of the world outside N.A. Not just England. Bigger than any other sport, HANDS DOWN.
I don't even like it myself, but it's just a fact.
Facts are facts, drop the emotional attachment guys.
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I think you misunderstood me.
I was referring to the reason for smaller football stadium sizes, and therefore attendance, in England.
Playing manager games, I'm absolutely stunned at how teams can support themselves financially in such small population markets. Especially with relegation and everything. The reason? Huge TV moeny because of the game's global popularity.
Bolton, Newcastle, Stoke, etc. are much smaller compared to say, Dallas, Houston, Detroit, Miami, Atlanta, etc.
Now if you look at global fan bases and whatever, I would say the EPL smokes MLB, NFL, and the NHL. The only one that comes close is the NBA, since basketball is the most global "American" sport.
| Quote: |
| 1. The idea that there should be a ratio of total population to Olympic medals is just statistically wrong. While a larger gene pool should help and give a country a greater chance of having naturally gifted athletes, you cant say that "China should have 4 times the medals as the US because they have 4 times the population." Each country is limited to the number of athletes they can enter in any event. Basic statistics. |
True, but at the same time it's pretty ridiculous for example, Russia, to say its better at Sports than Ukraine when its much larger and has a greater talent pool.
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| 5. And about the baseball: Koreans are good at baseball especially in February when an exemption from the army is at stake. But as good as major league players? Come on. |
Didn't say that. Just refuting the notion that they are crap at it and that the U.S. put out a weak team in the WBC. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
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I said Koreans didn't like foreigners coaching their teams. In ever said they don't have them.
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Having EIGHT foreigners in the last 20 years for the soccer team alone does not support that theory though. |
Yea like every person on Dave's saying their school or hagwon not turning on the heat when it was cold indicates that that Koreans don;t turn on the heat. But becasue you had to remove your suit coat because it was too toasty where you work all places in Korea turn on the heat. |
Except that I never said that at all. Nor does EVERY person on Dave's say that.
Pro-tip...when called on an over-generalization it is generally considered wise not to try and deflect it with another over-generalization...or in this case a complete fabrication. |
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warmachinenkorea
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| The Floating World wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Also look at the market size of the various cities. Compare England to America and there is a massive difference. Use the old noodle. |
Wow. The Ignorance.
Soccer is huge in the whole of Europe and the rest of the world outside N.A. Not just England. Bigger than any other sport, HANDS DOWN.
I don't even like it myself, but it's just a fact.
Facts are facts, drop the emotional attachment guys.
| Quote: |
| At the turn of the 21st century, the game was played by over 250 million players in over 200 countries, making it the world's most popular sport |
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Floating World my question was where does soccer bring in more than the pro and college leagues in the US. Not who plays soccer more. I'm asking about the amount of fans it brings in. Do you get this question? If you wanna get into who plays more we would have to include every pick-up baseball, basketball, football game etc... in the US. I'm sorry I can't find the numbers on those.
Steelrails I gave the info on fans attending. This shows more about the sports culture than anything.
Memphis has a population of 650,000+ The Grizzlies bring in an average of 14,650. Seoul is much harder to travel in than Seoul with a population of 10,000,000 + the league average is 3,805. Why do you think this is? Because we have a sports culture in America. And it's bigger than anyone else's. We support sports all the way down to the MS level.
I give Memphis as an example because it is the closest pro sports team to my home. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:06 pm Post subject: |
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| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
| The Floating World wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Also look at the market size of the various cities. Compare England to America and there is a massive difference. Use the old noodle. |
Wow. The Ignorance.
Soccer is huge in the whole of Europe and the rest of the world outside N.A. Not just England. Bigger than any other sport, HANDS DOWN.
I don't even like it myself, but it's just a fact.
Facts are facts, drop the emotional attachment guys.
| Quote: |
| At the turn of the 21st century, the game was played by over 250 million players in over 200 countries, making it the world's most popular sport |
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Floating World my question was where does soccer bring in more than the pro and college leagues in the US. Not who plays soccer more. I'm asking about the amount of fans it brings in. Do you get this question? If you wanna get into who plays more we would have to include every pick-up baseball, basketball, football game etc... in the US. I'm sorry I can't find the numbers on those.
Steelrails I gave the info on fans attending. This shows more about the sports culture than anything.
Memphis has a population of 650,000+ The Grizzlies bring in an average of 14,650. Seoul is much harder to travel in than Seoul with a population of 10,000,000 + the league average is 3,805. Why do you think this is? Because we have a sports culture in America. And it's bigger than anyone else's. We support sports all the way down to the MS level.
I give Memphis as an example because it is the closest pro sports team to my home. |
I'd agree that America has a bigger sporting culture than Korea, however I would disagree with the belief that American Football has a bigger fanbase than the EPL and you can't base it off of Stadium size because of the difference in length of season and market sizes as well as the unique promotion system which "plays weird" with club loyalties.
There is more to determining sports culture than just looking at the size of stadiums and concluding that those teams/sports are more widely supported.
I think a big indicator would be salaries. EPL/Serie A/La Liga salaries are comparable to NBA/MLB/NFL/NHL salaries. That should say something about the market size. EPL is much more dependent on global television revenue due to the smaller populations of the countries involved.
You can go into any country around the world and find EPL regular broadcasts. You can't say that about even the NBA and certainly not the NFL. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
| The Floating World wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Also look at the market size of the various cities. Compare England to America and there is a massive difference. Use the old noodle. |
Wow. The Ignorance.
Soccer is huge in the whole of Europe and the rest of the world outside N.A. Not just England. Bigger than any other sport, HANDS DOWN.
I don't even like it myself, but it's just a fact.
Facts are facts, drop the emotional attachment guys.
| Quote: |
| At the turn of the 21st century, the game was played by over 250 million players in over 200 countries, making it the world's most popular sport |
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Floating World my question was where does soccer bring in more than the pro and college leagues in the US. Not who plays soccer more. I'm asking about the amount of fans it brings in. Do you get this question? If you wanna get into who plays more we would have to include every pick-up baseball, basketball, football game etc... in the US. I'm sorry I can't find the numbers on those.
Steelrails I gave the info on fans attending. This shows more about the sports culture than anything.
Memphis has a population of 650,000+ The Grizzlies bring in an average of 14,650. Seoul is much harder to travel in than Seoul with a population of 10,000,000 + the league average is 3,805. Why do you think this is? Because we have a sports culture in America. And it's bigger than anyone else's. We support sports all the way down to the MS level.
I give Memphis as an example because it is the closest pro sports team to my home. |
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You're just wrong here, even rails is backing me up lol.
And I KNOW what you were saying and that is what I was responding to, not 'who plays it more.'
Do some research, I'm not going to do it for you. Then realise. Then get over it.
Jeez, who cares anyway.
Ooh my countries national sport pulls in more ticket sales than your's ner ner ner ner ner.' Lol. |
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warmachinenkorea
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:30 pm Post subject: |
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| The Floating World wrote: |
| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
| The Floating World wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Also look at the market size of the various cities. Compare England to America and there is a massive difference. Use the old noodle. |
Wow. The Ignorance.
Soccer is huge in the whole of Europe and the rest of the world outside N.A. Not just England. Bigger than any other sport, HANDS DOWN.
I don't even like it myself, but it's just a fact.
Facts are facts, drop the emotional attachment guys.
| Quote: |
| At the turn of the 21st century, the game was played by over 250 million players in over 200 countries, making it the world's most popular sport |
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Floating World my question was where does soccer bring in more than the pro and college leagues in the US. Not who plays soccer more. I'm asking about the amount of fans it brings in. Do you get this question? If you wanna get into who plays more we would have to include every pick-up baseball, basketball, football game etc... in the US. I'm sorry I can't find the numbers on those.
Steelrails I gave the info on fans attending. This shows more about the sports culture than anything.
Memphis has a population of 650,000+ The Grizzlies bring in an average of 14,650. Seoul is much harder to travel in than Seoul with a population of 10,000,000 + the league average is 3,805. Why do you think this is? Because we have a sports culture in America. And it's bigger than anyone else's. We support sports all the way down to the MS level.
I give Memphis as an example because it is the closest pro sports team to my home. |
]
You're just wrong here, even rails is backing me up lol.
And I KNOW what you were saying and that is what I was responding to, not 'who plays it more.'
Do some research, I'm not going to do it for you. Then realise. Then get over it.
Jeez, who cares anyway.
Ooh my countries national sport pulls in more ticket sales than your's ner ner ner ner ner.' Lol. |
I did my research and gave you the numbers. Did you see those? Here it is again incase you missed it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professional_sports_leagues
Obviously you care or you wouldn't continue to comment. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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Yes you pasted alink and cherry picked a quote fro it. Big pat on the back there fella.
You happened to miss this though
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| In some sports (mainly North American centered sports) the main league competition provides each club or franchise with virtually the whole of its attendance and revenue. In others, there are multiple competitions, for example leading English football clubs compete in four competitions each season, but only the league competition is listed below. |
You obviously ar theone with the emotional ttachemen that keeps you ignoring actual facts.
But again, why? Why is it such a bee in your bonnet? Pride? |
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adzee1
Joined: 22 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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Quote I did my research and gave you the numbers. Did you see those? Here it is again incase you missed it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professional_sports_leagues
Obviously you care or you wouldn't continue to comment.[/quote]
If you compare the size and population of England then I think its pretty good how close the average is to the NFL.
I would like you to see worldwide TV viewing figures added to the list and I think the EPL wins hands down. Take a look for yourself
"Promoted as "The Greatest Show On Earth",the Premier League is the world's most watched sporting league, being broadcast to over 600 million people in over 200 countries worldwide "
On the whole not many people really care that much about the NFL outside the USA.
The same cannot be said for the EPL which is also aided by the fact that it has players from many different countries playing in it which generates further interest. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
Memphis has a population of 650,000+ The Grizzlies bring in an average of 14,650. Seoul is much harder to travel in than Seoul with a population of 10,000,000 + the league average is 3,805. Why do you think this is? Because we have a sports culture in America. And it's bigger than anyone else's. We support sports all the way down to the MS level.
I give Memphis as an example because it is the closest pro sports team to my home. |
Well Ipswich Town F.C., in Ipswich population 128,000, averaged 18,453 fans per game while playing in the nPower Championship.
Do you know what nPower is? It's the "minor league" of soccer in England.
The markets are vastly different for Association Football in England and American Football in America.
England's population density results in lower fan bases for each team because they are so densely packed together and there are so many teams. Combine that with an overall lower population and you get the attendances you get in Association football.
For example you may say that the Green Bay Packers have a small market size and draw large numbers, actually this is not true. The market for the Packers is the entire state of Wisconsin. That's a market of 5 million people. No football team in England has an undivided market of 5 million.
The entire nation of England has 10X the people of Wisconsin crammed into an area smaller than Wisconsin and 20X the number of Top-level professional teams in that area combined with another 24 in the second tier that can be promoted into the top tier and can draw rather well.
And again, I'm sorry but not everyone around the world knows who the Packers are. EVERYONE knows Barcelona FC, Real Madrid, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, and Manchester United. Only the Lakers and perhaps the Yankees and Bulls (though dropping every year the more people growing up who have never seen Jordan) approach that level of brand notoriety.
Name one country where EPL isn't shown. I can name whole continents that don't give a fig about Hockey, Baseball or the NFL. Again, only basketball comes close.
EPL's market is the world. Every single nation. No other sport comes close to that. Saying that the NFL or even the NBA is close to the EPL is like saying that the Russian military is close to the U.S.' It's the next best, but its nowhere close. |
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warmachinenkorea
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:55 am Post subject: |
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Fellas I never said anything about the NFL being big outside of America. I mentioned they got good numbers when they play in London. I never compared sports to anywhere in the world except for asking where soccer brought in more than American sports. Obviously if you include the whole world in these things it's gonna get trumped. We were comparing sports between Korea and the US. But still no one country has or will have a sports culture like the US.
Again we are not comparing populations. That's Steelrails bit. People in Tennessee drive 7 hours to go to football games during football season. You don't have to drive that far in Korea.
I'm done here. I've made my points clear and now I've got people jumping in here just because we started talking about soccer. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| But still no one country has or will have a sports culture like the US. |
1. How do you come to believe such nonsense?
2. Do you really believe that?
Man talk about 'dude where's my country?' material.
Seriously, take of your blinkers man.
Unless you mean no country's sports culture is the same as the us in the example of how much players get paid etc. Even then you'd be wrong (and I bet that surprises you to read.)
Man, I know you don't want to take it from me, but maybe ask some fellow Americans you know personally whom have travelled to the UK, S.A, Oz and other countries if they'd agree with your idea.
Man it's just so ignorant and, frankly 'weird' that I don't want to go on any more as it would be impossible to do so without seeming as though I were trying to be abusive. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:58 am Post subject: |
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| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
Again we are not comparing populations. That's Steelrails bit. People in Tennessee drive 7 hours to go to football games during football season. You don't have to drive that far in Korea.
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Uhm when you compare numbers of people attending games, its very relevant to compare populations.
That's like saying the Trail Blazers have a bigger following than the Lakers or the Celtics because they have a higher average attendance. It's like saying there's a bigger fan base and market size in Cleveland than in New York because the Cavaliers had a higher attendance than the Knicks.
But we all know which market owners would kill to be in- the one with significantly more people.
At the same time owners worry about market size which is why you always here about a Kerfluffle with the San Francisco Giants when the Oakland A's make noises about moving to San Jose.
It's called statistical analysis. You do realize that Sports franchises move and make money off of complex statistical analysis and determinations of market size rather than wikipediaing "who has the largest average attendance" and doing that.
This also affects the value of EPL teams, while they might have larger global fan bases, their relatively small domestic market hampers their value.
And yes, sometimes market population does not correlate to attendance or popularity as in sports franchises in China or Tokyo or Seoul. But just because it doesn't there, doesn't mean it doesn't correlate elsewhere.
You can't just dismiss relevant data because it affects your version of the facts.
Sports owners pay people hundreds of thousands of dollars to do in depth research into these issues.
I think Commonwealth sporting culture is certainly comparable to sports in America.
Seriously, you're showing your greenhornness in living outside the U.S.
You know how you have to struggle to name more than a half dozen EPL/Assc. Football teams? Notice how everyone else in the world would struggle to name more than a half dozen NFL teams? Everyone outside of Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and Latin America would struggle to name more than a half dozen MLB teams, and everyone outside of North America, the former USSR, Sweden, Finland, Czech Rep. and Slovakia would struggle to name ANY NHL teams.
Again, only the NBA can lay claim to Europe (Spain, Greece, Germany, Turkey, Russia-Slavic Bloc) Asia (China, Korea, Japan) S. America (Brazil, Argentina), and Africa (African import players).
But ask those people around the world and they can name dozens of Assc. Football teams and the EPL, Serie A, La Liga, Bundesliga, Champions League, etc. etc.
| Quote: |
| People in Tennessee drive 7 hours to go to football games during football season. You don't have to drive that far in Korea. |
Or in England, and that's part of the equation.
This is what comes from cutting Statistics and Math in our education system.... |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| warmachinenkorea wrote: |
| But still no one country has or will have a sports culture like the US. |
Except you are talking to someone who grew up in that American town with the 110,000 seat facility called Michigan Stadium- Ann Arbor, MI. Which also happens to be one of the most cosmopolitan small towns in America. A city where the elementary schools average 30-40 (and the peak has I think, 100) different flags for the nationalities of the students in those schools. A city where pickup soccer is just as big, if not bigger than pickup basketball. A city that would have pubs filled at strange hours with people all over the world watching soccer or rugby, and THEN tailgating for the U-M game. Where World Cup victories would result in street celebrations by clustered peoples of their respective nations. People who were obsessed over Fantasy Football, and no not the one with Aaron Rodgers and Adrian Peterson and would gamble on the Champions League like it was the Sweet 16.
I think that that experience speaks for itself. But go ahead and believe that there is nothing bigger than the SEC and Monday Night Football.
Guess what? No one outside of America cares about the Vols or Alabama-LSU or Peyton Manning being out for the year. Sorry to break it to you.
But thanks at least for finding an issue that Floating and I could agree on and share utter disdain for the contrary opinion. |
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