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Another assault on a teacher and youth crime rising......
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fosterman

Joined: 16 Nov 2011

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 4:33 am Post subject:

soomin wrote:

. One student set a fire in our school with one of his books and one student flipped my podium over and screamed that he was going to murder me while jabbing a box cutter at me...

and you didn't press charges against him ? don't you know it's illegal to threaten someones life, you had a class full of witness and he used a dangerous weapon! guess you were satisfied with the apology then.
Rolling Eyes

some waygug-in

Joined: 25 Jan 2003

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:33 am Post subject:

So you plan on suing a grade 5 student? Good luck with that.

Lolimahro

Joined: 19 May 2009

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:48 am Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Problem is though...you're dealing with Korean culture here. I was in a situation similar to yours a few years back...I wanted a parent-teacher conference about a problem student...but the Korean teachers wanted no part of this.

Finally my co-teacher took me aside and explained that they couldn't have a parent-teacher conference as it would result in "much shame" for both sides...in other words a massive loss of face. The school would lose face for not being able to handle the student and the parent(s) would lose face because this was their child.

Generally I don't have much of a problem with the concept of "face" here...but this was one time which had me scratching my head.
When I asked "what do we do then?" she replied that in a couple of years that student would graduate and be someone else's problem.
Yeah just pass the buck...that's gonna "work" only so long and then what?

Goodness, I totally didn't get it that way! This "loss of face" thing gets me every time - I never see it coming (because I've been so trained to not give a crap about my "face" - "Just laugh at yourself and who cares what anyone else thinks?" my mom always said. Man that's a difficult cultural barrier to get past).

I guess our school (an alternative religious private school) is trying to establish a discipline system where conferences are routine (after detentions and lesser teacher-student discipline proves ineffective), but we'll see how that goes, I guess. Luckily we had our regular midterm conferences this week so the teacher was able to deal with it then. Hopefully she can get that kid under her thumb or she's going to have a difficult year.

NohopeSeriously

Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Location: The Christian Right-Wing Educational Republic of Korea

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 6:42 am Post subject:

northway wrote:

NohopeSeriously wrote:

We have a handful of ex-teachers in their 30s in my church. They just made a very bad life choice. One of them who retired last year recently said something like this.

Quote:

Working as a public school teacher these days is like being a poor and sick old woman finding recyclable scraps without any help and love from her relatives. You feel very isolated as you work in a school with an absolute amount of stress from both kids and teachers. A janitor in my former school was treated way better than me. I would get all the blame when a student did something wrong. There's no such thing as job security by being a public school teacher in this country. There's no such thing as emotional security. It's not surprising that a lot of teachers would quit.

She described this something.

I thought the job security in public school was pretty awesome for Korean teachers, even if the job can be pretty awful at times.

The Republic of Korea was originally founded purely as a country with a strong private education system(s). Don't expect too much from the public education.

northway

Joined: 05 Jul 2010

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 8:16 am Post subject:

NohopeSeriously wrote:

northway wrote:

I thought the job security in public school was pretty awesome for Korean teachers, even if the job can be pretty awful at times.

The Republic of Korea was originally founded purely as a country with a strong private education system(s). Don't expect too much from the public education.

I fail to see how this relates to my comment.

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 3:48 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

At my old public school there were a few parent teacher meetings, but I think they were pretty much for only big issues, and the kids whose parents came were the ones that had the most problems.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:32 pm Post subject:

Leon wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

At my old public school there were a few parent teacher meetings, but I think they were pretty much for only big issues, and the kids whose parents came were the ones that had the most problems.

Well yes parents can certainly request and get a meeting. We had several mothers visit and talk to teachers at my last school. One that sticks out in my memory was a Vietnamese woman (married to a Korean). She was talking to the VP and another teacher and she was one ticked off woman. Apparently the teacher had hit her kid for not wearing a proper uniform or something and she was STEAMING mad.
The VP and the teacher were attempting to cool her off "Adjuma, Adjuma please calm down. Let's just talk about it."

Finally they got her mollified with an apology from the teacher.

But this is something quite different...I'm curious now..have you ever tried to get a parent to confer with you as a teacher?

Leon

Joined: 31 May 2010

Posted: Thu May 17, 2012 7:41 pm Post subject:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

Leon wrote:

TheUrbanMyth wrote:

At my old public school there were a few parent teacher meetings, but I think they were pretty much for only big issues, and the kids whose parents came were the ones that had the most problems.

No, I mean when I worked at the public school my co-teacher talked to her homeroom students parents pretty frequently on the phone, and occasionally in person, and some times she would ask about how I thought a student was doing in my class and I think passed that information along, but since I only saw the students once a week and am at the intermediate level at best in Korean I didn't think that it would benefit anybody for me to meet with the parents.

fosterman

Joined: 16 Nov 2011

Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 4:52 pm Post subject:

some waygug-in wrote:

So you plan on suing a grade 5 student?

Good luck with that.

riiiiggghhhttt,, and when that same kid stabs you with a knife?
or he cuts your face with a knife? what do you do?

nothing right?

riiggghhhttt.. ok. yeah god luck with suing him right or his parents.
it says you joined this site in 2003, I am surprised you don't know much about Koreans and korean law. well I have been here much longer than you perhaps that's the reason. you should look into it.
Children can be sued, and parents can be held responsible.

Steelrails

Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System

Posted: Fri May 18, 2012 8:50 pm Post subject:

zacacho wrote:

one of those damn students come at me,,,,I'm gonna kick his fucking ass...point......everybody is all about be the change you want to see..and give peace a chance...i've been held up at gun point, knife point, hit by a car while on bike going 60mph...
I am sick of being nice...one of those damn snot nose korean punks comes at me with a knife or what have you...I am going to kick f*%#!'n ass.

Calm down Zimmerman. Lighten up Francis.

If some 8 year old comes at my with scissors or a box cuter I'm restraining them, not sending them to the hospital with a concussion, broken jaw, and broken eye orbital.

Just don't do something stupid that gets you 5-10 years. It ain't worth it just to get back at society and all the stupid people.

NohopeSeriously

Joined: 17 Jan 2011
Location: The Christian Right-Wing Educational Republic of Korea

Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 6:37 am Post subject:

northway wrote:

NohopeSeriously wrote:

northway wrote:

I thought the job security in public school was pretty awesome for Korean teachers, even if the job can be pretty awful at times.

The Republic of Korea was originally founded purely as a country with a strong private education system(s). Don't expect too much from the public education.

I fail to see how this relates to my comment.

The private education sector in Korea has always been better than the public education sector mostly because of historical reasons (Korean War, Dictatorship eras, very powerful private universities, etc).

northway

Joined: 05 Jul 2010

Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 7:05 am Post subject:

NohopeSeriously wrote:

Again: I fail to see how this relates to job security in Korean public schools.

some waygug-in

Joined: 25 Jan 2003

Posted: Sat May 19, 2012 8:57 am Post subject:

fosterman wrote:

some waygug-in wrote:

So you plan on suing a grade 5 student?

Good luck with that.

Well, luckily that never happened to me. But if it had, I doubt very much that I would have tried to sue anyone. The first thing I would have done is ask myself what I could have done differently to avoid this happening in the first place. If suing someone is your first option, .... I don't know.
It doesn't bode well for society in general to have everyone out to sue each other every time something bad happens.

When I was teaching ( I ain't any more), I tried to find activities and things for the kids to do that drew their attention away from me and towards the activity.

Mostly the kids just ignored me and concentrated on what was going on.

It's when I was forced to just stick to a boring textbook and not allowed to plan my own activites that I started having
disruptive students.

Not saying this is what happened in this case,

but chances are that is likely part of the cause.

TheUrbanMyth

Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired

Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 5:40 pm Post subject:

fosterman wrote:

some waygug-in wrote:

So you plan on suing a grade 5 student?

Good luck with that.

Quote:

Proceeding

Upon receiving a complaint, the presiding judge will set a date for a hearing and will summon the parties to appear. The parties may appear in person or by counsel. They can only be represented in court by licensed attorneys, except as otherwise provided by law. Each party is responsible for presenting evidence in support of its arguments. The judge may refer the case to a conciliation proceeding if it is deemed appropriate.

The trial is not conducted continuously, but may be held in a series of hearings, often two or three weeks apart. However, trials tend to be concluded more quickly than in the courts of any other country. The average duration of first instance trials is about 6 months before a panel of judges and about 2.5 months before a single judge. It is noteworthy that the fact-finding authority is vested exclusively in the judge.

(bolding mine)

So first you have to find a trial attorney and pay him and secondly you have to take time off work a number of times in order to attend.

Seems like you would end up losing more money than you would eventually get in this kind of trial and that's if the judge found for you.

http://www.helplinelaw.com/article/south%20korea/151

Mr. BlackCat

Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE

Posted: Sun May 20, 2012 9:17 pm Post subject:

Weigookin74 wrote:

northway wrote:

Weigookin74 wrote:

Must be the wrong research. Decades ago when discipline was strict, crime was low. Nowadays, it isn't. Seems like your research is fudged and not credible. Any idiot can argue numbers 6 ways to Sunday. It's what actually happens that results. If I ever go home, I'd like to put a boot up every Politically Correct facists you know what! Thanks for nothing. Besides, didn't Dr Spock's kid commit suicide. (He put out that famous book that said it was ok to not discipline your kids.)

What are you talking about? Are you going to reject any crime statistics you see in favor of your subjective view? Per Wikipedia:

Quote:

In 2009 America's crime rate was roughly the same as in 1968, with the homicide rate being at its lowest level since 1964. Overall, the national crime rate was 3466 crimes per 100,000 residents, down from 3680 crimes per 100,000 residents forty years earlier in 1969 (-9.4%).

So the actual crime rate has held pretty steady, though the stats for the '60s are pre-War on Drugs, which accounts for a whole lot of non-violent offenses. If you want to speak about violent crime more specifically, again, your argument is false:

Quote:

Despite the recent stagnation of the homicide rate, however, property and violent crimes overall have continued to decrease, though at a considerably slower pace than in the 1990s.Overall, the crime rate in the U.S. was the same in 2009 as in 1968, with the homicide rate being roughly the same as in 1964. Violent crime overall, however, is still at the same level as in 1973, despite having decreased steadily since 1991.

Finally:

Quote:

The year 2010 was overall the safest year in almost forty years. The recent overall decrease has reflected upon all significant types of crime, with all violent and property crimes having decreased and reached an all-time low. The homicide rate in particular has decreased 51% between its record high point in 1991 and 2010.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States

Now, if you're not speaking of the US then these statistics don't mean much, but regardless, your assertion that crime explodes when corporal punishment is abolished clearly isn't a universal truth.

Violent crime started rising around the 60's and 70's. This is when corporal punishment started being phased out. But our parents, the baby boomers, often grew up as children of priviledge compared to previous generations. Violent crime has gone down some because of tougher laws, more jails, an aging baby boomer population, etc. Prison overcrowding is rife. People spared the rod and spoiled the child. Now there's a whole lot more of them in jail. (There are less repeat offenders because of 3 strikes and youre out.)

The fact is violent crime is still much much higher than it was in our grandparents lives when they were growing up. Though I often felt their corporal punishment was used as an extreme. But, there has to be a middle ground rather than extreme corporal punishment and then none.

What we need is corporal punishment with rules and restrictions. Punishments with purposes. If the "time out" works for some kids great. But for those problem kids that it doesn't work, then it escalates to the next level with warnings. With restrictions such as no fist, hitting on the head, no leather straps, only on the hands, arms, or behind, with a school principal, vice principal, and guidance counselor as a witness, CP can be managed properly, as a last resort. It's obvious we need it, there's too much a sense of entitlement that makes people go soft.

Schools and parents can do this. Schools can give parents of problem kids a choice, corporal punishment or two week suspension. Kids are out of control and putting the nuts in charge of the nuthouse is clearly not working. Kids minds are not mature enough to be in charge. They are going to do what they want when the know there are no consequences.

The problem here in Korea is that there is no alternative punishment such as detention, suspensions, stay after school, or fail the grades. But either way, these kids will learn a lesson in the world of work when their sense of entitlement gets them fired from jobs and doomed to a life of poverty. But by then it's too late.

Sorry, but all you offer is subjective opinions in the face of the facts presented. The fact is, crime (including violent crime) is down and is continuing to go down. However, most Americans believe crime is exploding because a lot of people find it profitable to project this idea, including politicians. There is no profit in being safe. At the same time it fits into this false idea that everything was better when we were kids. Yes, our generation had it all figured out, and kids these days are out of control. And we're the first and only generation to ever believe this.

A good example of this hyped up fear of crime that has no basis was the "Crack Epidemic". There was no crack epidemic. The myth of the crack baby was yet another racist attempt to 'crack down' (pardon the pun) on 'urban' (aka black) drug users. The US instituted a penalty of 8years in jail for crack for every 1 year for a cocaine crime. The news media perpetuated the crack epidemic and crack baby myths because white people weren't allowed to just admit they were scared of black people. No, no no. It's crack! I'm scared of crack heads! And crack babies are taking over! No, not black babies. I'm not allowed to say that.

Violent crime did grow in the 70s, but how can you make a blanket statement that it was due to corporal punishment being taken out of school? I've heard the same argument being made about prayer being taken out of school. It's an easy answer that suits particular political and social belief structures, but like most things, the truth is much more complicated.

I'm not going to write a dissertation on the matter here, but you could also look into the fact that the sexual revolution resulted in crimes like domestic abuse and rape being reported. The civil rights movement resulted in crimes against blacks like lynching and beating being put on the books for the first time. Same with attacks on gays. Then there was the downturn in the American economy in the 70s. Not to mention the new War on Drugs resulted in pushing drugs more into the hands of violent gangs. Of course, in this time we also saw the privatization of many justice department services, like private security and privately owned jails that have more interest in putting people in jail than they do in rehabilitating them. Finally, the 70s was also when journalism turned from actually providing news to sensationalism on a grand scale, leading to the 24/7 cable fear commercials we have today. Not to mention the fact that the 70s saw a dramatic increase in urbanization, and putting people in close proximity will likely result in more crime.

It's ridiculous to ignore crime statistics and then say there are more people in American jails today. Of course there are, there are more people in the USA today. Further, many if not most of the people in American jails today are victims of the failed War on Drugs and not violent at all. The paranoia of crime in the US perpetuated by the media, politicians and large corporations create a society that has a man who steals a donut go to jail for 25 years after stealing a bike and a magazine in the past.

And people let it happen because crime is out of control. Right? It's out of control because I saw it on the news, so it must be true. I mean, remember the good 'ol days when neighbours used to look out for one another and no one ever did anything bad? You know, when I was 6 and had no idea about the world around me. But that world was perfect. Unless you were a woman. Or black. Or brown. Or Jewish. Or gay. Or poor. Or...

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