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Korean Job Discussion Forums
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| comm wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| I honestly think it is a question of perception and how these expressions are said and used. |
True. But don't underestimate the impact of "unintended effects" of language. In English, for example, using the term "non-White" is innocuous enough, but sets up a natural distinction between "normal" and "other".
우리 나라 can have a similar effect. This is even more pronounced when 외국인 is used to identify someone based solely on appearance without regard for their nationality or citizenship. |
Right, but a lot of this is western emotional baggage that foreigners bring with them, rather than anything intrinsic in the language being used. |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Women and men, what %? |
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| kyosuro wrote: |
| Seriously, what western woman would appreciate a man who hawks/spits when they see someone they'd like to f***? Western men come here maybe to pay off student loans, but also to take advantage of the easy p****. This culture is only attractive to men who are (for various reasons) not attractive, or people who need money. |
Whoa.
This may be hard to understand, but Western guys are in the same boat you are here. Meaningless sex is easier to find but stable, long-term relationships are harder to come by. It's a mistake to assume that we prefer it this way. |
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kyosuro
Joined: 11 Jul 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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Whoa.
This may be hard to understand, but Western guys are in the same boat you are here. Meaningless sex is easier to find but stable, long-term relationships are harder to come by. It's a mistake to assume that we prefer it this way.[quote]
I hear you. I know there are a lot of decent men teaching English here. My sincere apologies for the drunken rant in the last post.
I think my anger was inflamed by the fact that Korean language is so hierarchical (you can say anything with half a dozen or more levels of respect, and you can say something that sounds nice in tone and surface meaning but has embedded disrespect/sarcasm that most English speakers don't catch). All of the discussion here seems to be by men who are respected automatically as men and therefore talked to respectfully. Women sometimes get respectful language, sometimes not, but receive far much more disrespect through language than men do--no man here is ranting on the disrespectful language of Koreans. No, they're all discussing vocabulary, motivation, learning methods and learning difficulty.
As an example, I go into a cafe, order a coffee in Korean, with my mind on something else I struggle with a smile to understand all of the 19 year old female cashier's questions about stamp cards, discount cards, cash receipts, etc., and this person says in a very loud voice: "잘 안 되세요?" (you don't do very well in Korean, do you?) What is the purpose of this, except to disrespect me? When I explained this experience to a Korean who knows some English, she exclaimed, "Wow, I can't believe she said that. That was so rude!" I have had many other such experiences in Korea, and they do negatively impact my motivation. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:06 pm Post subject: |
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| kyosuro wrote: |
I think my anger was inflamed by the fact that Korean language is so hierarchical (you can say anything with half a dozen or more levels of respect, and you can say something that sounds nice in tone and surface meaning but has embedded disrespect/sarcasm that most English speakers don't catch). All of the discussion here seems to be by men who are respected automatically as men and therefore talked to respectfully. |
What makes you think this? The principal and vice principal at my school regularly talk to even the Korean male teachers in banmal. Age and work position both seem to be a much more important factor than gender in this regard. You're turning it into a gender issue because western culture has trained you to turn it into a gender issue. Resist.
| kyosuro wrote: |
| Women sometimes get respectful language, sometimes not, but receive far much more disrespect through language than men do--no man here is ranting on the disrespectful language of Koreans. No, they're all discussing vocabulary, motivation, learning methods and learning difficulty. |
Is that because the men here are never spoken to in a "disrespectful" fashion, or because they're simply inclined to shrug it off? |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Now, you did not quite read or understand what I wrote in your hurry to respond. |
No, I did. We're just arguing different things.
This is my main point:
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| "We're seeing that exposure to two languages early in life carries far-reaching benefits," said co-author Kaushanskaya. "Our research tells us that children who grow up with two languages wind up being better language learners later on." |
My mother is in her 50s now and is trying to learn a language, but without success. She's been at it for quite some time, too. Why is this? Is it because my mother is dumber and lazier than your mother?
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| My Mother speaks 4 languages. The first two she got as she grew up. The other two she learned as an adult (the last one she started studying in her early 50s and became conversant in). |
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cheolsu
Joined: 16 Jan 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| The principal and vice principal at my school regularly talk to even the Korean male teachers in banmal. |
My female principal often talks to me (a male) in banmal. It's a mixture of professional and casual speech, I guess. She treats me very well, takes an interest in what I do and has personally helped me out on a few occasions. Given that she started teaching four years before my parents were even married and eleven years before I was born, I don't really mind. |
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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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| kyosuro wrote: |
I think my anger was inflamed by the fact that Korean language is so hierarchical (you can say anything with half a dozen or more levels of respect, and you can say something that sounds nice in tone and surface meaning but has embedded disrespect/sarcasm that most English speakers don't catch). All of the discussion here seems to be by men who are respected automatically as men and therefore talked to respectfully. Women sometimes get respectful language, sometimes not, but receive far much more disrespect through language than men do--no man here is ranting on the disrespectful language of Koreans. No, they're all discussing vocabulary, motivation, learning methods and learning difficulty.
As an example, I go into a cafe, order a coffee in Korean, with my mind on something else I struggle with a smile to understand all of the 19 year old female cashier's questions about stamp cards, discount cards, cash receipts, etc., and this person says in a very loud voice: "잘 안 되세요?" (you don't do very well in Korean, do you?) What is the purpose of this, except to disrespect me? When I explained this experience to a Korean who knows some English, she exclaimed, "Wow, I can't believe she said that. That was so rude!" I have had many other such experiences in Korea, and they do negatively impact my motivation. |
It is natural to show respect to men, because they can rip you limb from limb. Optional to show respect to women because in the natural world they don't have any say in anything. And also remember, chicks like being catty and such to other chicks.
You could always hope to be born with a [male body part] in the next life.  |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Learning, trying to learn, or making a significant effort to learn a language does not suddenly become obligatory in a country just because you say so |
Just because I say so? No. Its a practical necessity. And don't give me that most disingenuous 'but there are people who only spend 5 weeks in Thailand, why should they study Thai for 1 week' crap. I don't buy the premise that someone taking a vacation in the Phillipines for 6 weeks can't find 20 minutes in a day to listen to Tagalog CDs, or can't afford 30 minutes to chat with English-speaking locals to try out Tagalog phrases.
So you know this is an English teacher board, correct? I very much doubt your idiotic position on this thread is widely shared here. |
| Fox wrote: |
| "What extra benefits would you get on holiday being able to engage in basic communication with the locals?" I wonder if that really needs to be explained. Seriously, are they people, or scenery/vending machines? |
Everyone around the world studies English as a compulsory subject in school starting from a very young age. In Thailand, it starts in grade 1, meaning twelve years of English instruction. Learning a language takes a long time. It is unrealistic to expect your Thai to exceed their English in a matter of weeks. Speaking a local language (when you are butchering it) isn't necessarily fun for the native listener to hear. Using English, the world's lingua franca, is more utilitarian for purposes of meaningful interaction. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
Learning a language takes a long time. It is unrealistic to expect your Thai to exceed their English in a matter of weeks.
. . .
Using English, the world's lingua franca, is more utilitarian for purposes of meaningful interaction. |
You argue well with strawmen. Its now time to give a real interlocutor a try.
I'm on the record in this thread as stating (a) if someone stays in a land for over 4-6 weeks, then (b) he/she should invest 20 minutes or so a day learning the local language.
By all means, conduct important business transactions in English. Please, speak English predominantly each day. Just avoid speaking English all the time all day long and expecting people to translate for you months down the road. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
I'm on the record in this thread as stating (a) if someone stays in a land for over 4-6 weeks, then (b) he/she should invest 20 minutes or so a day learning the local language.
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Actually you're on the record as saying this. 'If you live in a country for more than 4 weeks, you must make a significant effort to learn the language. That goes for everyone' but it's good to see you've modified your original statement to something a bit more sensible. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:23 am Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
I'm on the record in this thread as stating (a) if someone stays in a land for over 4-6 weeks, then (b) he/she should invest 20 minutes or so a day learning the local language.
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Actually you're on the record as saying this. 'If you live in a country for more than 4 weeks, you must make a significant effort to learn the language. That goes for everyone' but it's good to see you've modified your original statement to something a bit more sensible. |
Not should as in "you should brush your teeth three times a day" but should as in "you shouldn't spend considerably more money than you earn." Its a practical necessity. |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Not should as in "you should brush your teeth three times a day" but should as in "you shouldn't spend considerably more money than you earn." Its a practical necessity. |
Is that practical necessity as in,
'What, you're going to Amsterdam for 5 weeks and you don't know any Dutch? You won't last a day!'
Or "you're going to Stockholm for a month? You'd better start learning Swedish for 20 minutes a day right now or you'll have real problems being able to do anything at all there. It's a practical necessity.  |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
| "모기 (mosquito) 싫어(hate)" which means "i hate mosquitos." however in english, you cannot dumb down how to say that you have a disdain for mosquitos. you must say who is speaking. |
In Korean, "Mosquitoes suck" is "모기가 싫다"; "I hate mosquitoes" is "나는 모기를 싫어하다". The English sentence is only three words. Not really that long or hard.
| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
| there was a study (i can't find the link at the moment) that showed that the average korean uses a fraction of the words that an english speaker would use on a daily basis in speech. |
Let's see this study. (I searched briefly, but could not find it.) If true, it speaks more to the stoicism and/or social isolation (computer games, etc.) of many Koreans than anything else (like the efficiency of the languages' grammatical structure). |
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comm
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| World Traveler wrote: |
| wishfullthinkng wrote: |
| there was a study (i can't find the link at the moment) that showed that the average korean uses a fraction of the words that an english speaker would use on a daily basis in speech. |
Let's see this study. (I searched briefly, but could not find it.) If true, it speaks more to the stoicism and/or social isolation (computer games, etc.) of many Koreans than anything else (like the efficiency of the languages' grammatical structure). |
I've been hearing from Korean teachers (and aspiring Korean teachers) that Korean students spend almost no time learning to express themselves in their native language. Every other subject takes precedence over Korean, so students never learn to love the language and pick up the advanced vocabulary that allows for in-depth description and expression. |
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World Traveler
Joined: 29 May 2009
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| Posted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| edwardcatflap wrote: |
| Quote: |
13) Zenephobia. Its hard to learn a language if you do not feel engaged or accepted into the culture.
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15) Lack of a permanent expat community. Most foreigners are temporary migrants, and there are few real prospects for anyone who stays. |
15) Your PatrickGHBusan brigade will contest this one strongly and claim the reason why there are few prospects for most foreigners in Korea is that they can't speak the language. They may well be right. They will also claim 13 is a chicken and egg problem and you can't expect to be accepted into the culture until you learn the language. |
Here's an interview with the person considered to be the most advanced (non Korean) Western speaker of the Korean language:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3Wpj1-n_-KQJ:bridgezine.com/%3Fp%3D293+michael+elliott+korea+bridge&cd=1&hl=ko&ct=clnk&gl=ca
Interesting stuff. |
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