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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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 Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:40 pm Post subject: |
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| optik404 wrote: |
| World Traveler wrote: |
| optik404 wrote: |
| What happens on Dave's is not a discussion. It's a circlejerk of the same complaints with the same users over and over. Which is why I'm curious why those users (not you) would choose to stay. |
Good question, optik404. Why do you stay on Dave's if you hate it so much? What are you getting out of reading posts and responding to them? How does it benefit your life? You think by being an apologist e-warrior for Korea you are somehow defending the honor of your Korean wife? That's pretty pathetic man. Get offline (for the sake of your marriage).
Dave's ESL Cafe: Love it or leave it!  |
Never said I hated Dave's. Just asked a question, I think asking questions is allowed. Also, not married. My gf isn't even Korean.  |
^^ 
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2013 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| radcon wrote: |
| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| cj1976 wrote: |
| Anyway, going back to what someone else pointed out, I often wonder why people who truly hate Korea stay here. |
That was my first question when joining Dave's and remains so...
You guys need to wise up; this is the century of Asia. Whatever dump you come from back in the Anglosphere is in dead cat bounce mode. The natives don’t care about adopting your failed practices, shocking as that may sound. |
No one can foretell what will happen in the next 87 years, but Asian dominance is looking far less likely than it was at the turn of the century. |
Mother Nature is the best bet in the 21st century I think. |
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hiamnotcool
Joined: 06 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
hiamnotcool's screen name doesn't jump out to me as one of the big bashers the way an atwood's or Smithington's does.
If drunken memory serves, I think he's posted at least some favorable comments.
But yeah, I think "Why are you still here?" is a fair question for people who CONSTANTLY harp about everything here being worse than back home and that this country is terrible all around. They've been talking like that for years, yet they keep staying. I know some have packed up and left, but others keep staying. I don't know why. At that point you have to wonder if they are misanthropes who just complain about everything, no matter where they are and are constitutionally incapable of blaming themselves for negative outcomes in their lives. |
I actually really like Korea and the culture and all that. I think there is a time and place to discuss some things and an internet forum seems to be the perfect place to vent. It may surprise some people but I am a fan of the idea that if a person is miserable in Korea they should leave. However, I don't see how that is ever, ever, ever, ever, ever a productive response on a discussion forum. That's just a way to shut down complainers, and I just don't think this is the place for that. That being said, people are free to throw it out there if they want. But really, this is a discussion board, and if the complaints really bother someone that much it might be better for them to find something less stressful to do with their time.
I may come here and complain about Itaewon changing or something trivial like that. It doesn't mean that I hate Korea or I want to leave, so why imply that I should just leave as soon as anything upsets me in Korea? Even if the poster is a consistent Korea hate machine, that doesn't mean they can't have something valuable to add to a discussion. So while I think it's true that if someone hates Korea and the culture they should leave, I just don't think that is a response that belongs on a discussion board unless someone is trying to troll and hinder discussion. |
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Who's Your Daddy?
Joined: 30 May 2010
Location: Victoria, Canada.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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Someone could hate Korea but recognize that they'd be worse off in their own country; so they stay. I'd like to live in the south of France, but I couldn't afford to live there.
In Korea I'm upper middle class, but I don't really like the country.
In Canada I'd be poor, although I love the country.
[That said, I'm leaving because I don't want to raise my son here, but I understand while some people hate it, yet stay.] |
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cj1976
Joined: 26 Oct 2005
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| Posted: Wed Jan 01, 2014 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe some people are projecting their low-self-esteem. They think that Korea is not good enough for them, yet feel hopeless because they can't leave due to lack of better options. If that is so, then staying here is only going to lead into depression and rage.
This might sound bad, but I find minimizing contact time with Koreans and their many cultural rules works for me. The more time I have to spend around them, the more upset I get.
Korea is a frustrating place to be sometimes, and these niggles can build up unless you have an outlet other than drinking and internet-jousting. Start working out, learn an instrument, learn Korean or another language. Save your money and hit SE Asia twice a year. It is better than being a whiny bitch on an internet forum. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 12:24 am Post subject: |
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Funny how no one says what we know to be true, but no one will ever admit, and this goes for myself as well.
My poor life choices, lack of discipline in my youth, lack of employable skills, pursuit of short-term interests, valuing happiness over responsibility, and a lack of successful execution on certain fronts are what keep me here. This in addition to poor choices by my nation of birth and the culture there. If I was half as good as I think am, I would have at least a comparable job back home as I do here, sufficient to take care of any educational debts or to provide a comfortable lifestyle.
That and the chicks.
And once you get settled here, its easy to get stuck in. Things can come rather easy and soju causes time to slip by.
And then the really self-loathing part. Maybe if I had studied harder and cared more about school and really busted my butt like some of these Korean kids, I might have gone to a better school or gotten a scholarship and be working a better job. Maybe if I valued money a little more than "finding myself", I might not be in such financial straights. Maybe if I listened to all those people and not spent thousands of dollars on weed and had stayed drug free, I wouldn't have such debt and instead of being in Korea, I'd be in Colorado where weed will be cheap, plentiful, and legal. Maybe if my country was a little more nationalistic, unwelcoming to foreign labor, more protectionist in its policies, and emphasized wide-spread employment over cheap consumer goods, I might be able to get a nice job.
Now, not all of these apply to me or everyone else, but there is an element of truth to it.
I've noticed that the people who are generally the happiest in Korea are people who really wanted to come here (no surprise). They tend to either be Koreaboos or Asian-Americans who kind of know what the deal is before they come over as far as what kind of negative things will happen and dealing with things like food and so on. The other group are people who like hiking or fishing or some other hobby that tends not to require 30 friends and so on. And S. Africans and to a lesser extant the Irish, and Americans from high-crime cities. |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| he PC, smart phones, etc. These things were not invented in Asia. |
That may be true, but the widespread use of those and the affordable prices that enable many an average working joe out there afford such things is because of companies in Asia.
Also, a great deal of the West's inventions came from a tribe from Western Asia, a Semitic people from the Fertile Crescent of the Middle East, who followed and gave birth to a religion, wholly unlike the pantheons of Greece, Rome, and Scandinavia. A religion which more than anything revolutionized thinking in the West and set the stage for everything that followed. In gratitude for this, the West regularly demonized and terrorized this tribe, at one point engaging in a campaign of extermination against the people. I speak of course of the Jews.
And if one were to talk about say, creativity in modern music, well does "the West" include a people who were forcibly enslaved and transported from their homes, and subject to 400+ years of brutality? For it is from these people that nearly all major modern genres of music descend.
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| Sure, they will have some successes. But, they always run into limitations. Japan has been in the dump for how many years? |
I think most countries, including America, would love to have a Japanese standard of living, even when it was "in the dump". "In the dump" in most of these cases means the country isn't experiencing explosive growth, making it appealing to the investment class.
Asian countries contributed many of the basic breakthroughs that enabled the great wave of Western invention. All nations and peoples go through boom and bust cycles. If it were the year 500-1400, people in China could rant and rave about the failings of Western Culture and their lack of invention. Now they have the number 2, 3, and 13, and 19th biggest economies, not to mention Singapore and Hong Kong. Two of which, S. Korea and Taiwan, are virtually devoid of natural resources and have had to devote significant amounts of their money to defense spending.
Similar things were said about the Soviets, how their rigid authoritarian culture couldn't enable progress. Then you had Sputnik and Yuri Gagarin. Ajosshi egos may be bad, but that's nothing compared to the NKVD or KGB looking over your shoulder and watching your work. In order to overcome that, we had to turn to a bunch of ex-Nazi scientists, another regime noted for its "freedom, creativity, and support of dissent".
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| But, will they? Probably not in our lifetimes. In the west there are lots of "B" and "C" average students that are quite smart and quite creative who can prove themselves in a job. |
And there's a lot more who are slackers, passed thanks to laughable standards, and those who lack the discipline and work ethic to succeed.
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| "A" students are often good at memorizing but lacking in some types of creativity. |
A students are also good at discipline, reliability, and work ethic. Probably better than their B or C student counterparts.
There are always some exceptional B and C students who succeed through creativity, however many right now are working at Starbucks with their 'creativity' being applied to whipping up a mocha latte for those A students who actually got hired.
If creativity meant as much as it did, and was as prevalent as it is claimed to be for westerners, the 25,000 of us here should be running this place and the Koreans working for us, not us for them. With all the NETs that have come here, what brilliantly creative things have we brought? Craft beer? Restaurants? Blogs?
Frankly, I think at times we in the West get a little complacent when it comes to everything. We sit back and point to a Steve Jobs or Mark Zuckerburg and rest ourselves contented that all is right with the world. Safe in our knowledge that the rest of the world, because of their culture (race), is inherently less creative, less intelligent, than us. Creativity does not come simply by virtue of your birth and country, it comes through individual exercise. |
I like your post but you need to cut out the inaccuracies such as the ones I have bolded. The people of Sumer can not be called the Semitic people who were the ancestors of what we call 'Jews'.
They were not the Biblical Jews nor the Jews whose Turkoman ancestors converted to the religion and who are the ancestors of some prominent Jews now. And of course the modern day Palestinians and some other so called 'Arabs' are actually the old time Jews who were forced to convert or chose to convert to Islam. There were actually a number of different Semitic peoples so the phrase 'Anti Semitism' as applied to European Jewish people has always been inaccurate.
Western advancement in mathematical theory, the theory of physics, philosophy, etc originated with the Ionians. They have been called 'Greek' but in fact were different ethnically although Greece was the advance guard of these ideas and the development of what came to be western knowledge and culture. The Arabic peoples did contribute to mathematical knowledge but the lasting contribution of the Ionians and those who followed such as the Greeks and Romans was to provide the intellectual theorising necessary for practical application.
You also have forgotten or do not know about Etruscan civilisation - modern day Tuscany was once the province where these people lived - and Minoan civilisation. Both were advanced societies. And of course the Chinese invented the first printing methods although the Koreans claim they were the first. They were not.
However, the Asian story was one of creativity and invention hampered by autocratic, xenophobic rulers. The resistance to science and particularly intellectual theorising held back East Asia and other parts of the world from modernising until very late. And you didn't mention Scotland - a small country of few people that numbers the most inventors among its small population.
Carry on. |
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duhweecher
Joined: 06 Nov 2013
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:12 am Post subject: |
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Isn't this post about Korea's obsession over hiring foreign experts? I fail to see the relevance of the last 3 or so pages.  |
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earthquakez
Joined: 10 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:15 am Post subject: |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| cj1976 wrote: |
| Anyway, going back to what someone else pointed out, I often wonder why people who truly hate Korea stay here. |
That was my first question when joining Dave's and remains so...
You guys need to wise up; this is the century of Asia. Whatever dump you come from back in the Anglosphere is in dead cat bounce mode. The natives don’t care about adopting your failed practices, shocking as that may sound. |
Sorry but that is so 1980s. Demographics are destiny and the countries that adopt the best to changing demographics will be the winners in the 21st century and beyond.
Korea and Japan as well as other Asian countries are fighting the future they are creating by their low birthrates. Korea's response is hardly inventive - allow other Asians to marry Koreans in certain provinces who cannot find wives because of the unintended results of a chauvinistic boys count attitude that saw higher abortion rates for female children in the womb.
This Asian Bride syndrome is not a positive facing of the future, it's more some kind of last resort reflecting the inward looking Korean society. Many Koreans at grassroots level as opposed to decent govt. employees can barely tolerate the 'tigi' - children who have one Korean parent and one foreign parent - as the more frequent than you'd like to think bullying of such children is endorsed by the attitude of parents who tell their children not to play with the 'non' Korean children.
If Korean society wants to deal with the future as if it can have its kimchi and eat it, then it is going to be rather unpleasant for foreigners, I think, as well as economically detrimental to many Koreans.
As it is now the society is not good at accepting Korean children who have one foreign parent so if any real immigration program starts, I think it is fair to say that the intolerance and xenophobia on display now for those Korean children and for foreigners will increase.
Japan is in deeper trouble - going back for holidays I can see how aged the population is. An ageing population will result in more school closures, more town closures, and a falling taxation base although the 25 percent elderly population now is putting a lot of pressure on health and other services they barely pay for.
When Japan hits 30 percent elderly population it will be interesting in a bad way. Yet generally the Japanese resist any attempts to even discuss the demographical problem - Koreans have it all over them there as at least there is discussion going on about the demographics in Korea.
Western societies are undergoing significant changes as they accommodate more and more immigrants from non traditional source countries of immigration. There are problems but non Asian societies stand a much better chance of meeting the challenges of changing demographics as traditionally they have seen mass movements of people. The benefits in the long run will outweigh the shorter term disadvantages.
Korea and Japan have a grim future if they keep refusing to incorporate diversity which is the lifeblood of successful societies and nations long term. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jan 02, 2014 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| earthquakez wrote: |
| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| cj1976 wrote: |
| Anyway, going back to what someone else pointed out, I often wonder why people who truly hate Korea stay here. |
That was my first question when joining Dave's and remains so...
You guys need to wise up; this is the century of Asia. Whatever dump you come from back in the Anglosphere is in dead cat bounce mode. The natives don’t care about adopting your failed practices, shocking as that may sound. |
Sorry but that is so 1980s. Demographics are destiny and the countries that adopt the best to changing demographics will be the winners in the 21st century and beyond.
Korea and Japan as well as other Asian countries are fighting the future they are creating by their low birthrates. Korea's response is hardly inventive - allow other Asians to marry Koreans in certain provinces who cannot find wives because of the unintended results of a chauvinistic boys count attitude that saw higher abortion rates for female children in the womb.
This Asian Bride syndrome is not a positive facing of the future, it's more some kind of last resort reflecting the inward looking Korean society. Many Koreans at grassroots level as opposed to decent govt. employees can barely tolerate the 'tigi' - children who have one Korean parent and one foreign parent - as the more frequent than you'd like to think bullying of such children is endorsed by the attitude of parents who tell their children not to play with the 'non' Korean children.
If Korean society wants to deal with the future as if it can have its kimchi and eat it, then it is going to be rather unpleasant for foreigners, I think, as well as economically detrimental to many Koreans.
As it is now the society is not good at accepting Korean children who have one foreign parent so if any real immigration program starts, I think it is fair to say that the intolerance and xenophobia on display now for those Korean children and for foreigners will increase.
Japan is in deeper trouble - going back for holidays I can see how aged the population is. An ageing population will result in more school closures, more town closures, and a falling taxation base although the 25 percent elderly population now is putting a lot of pressure on health and other services they barely pay for.
When Japan hits 30 percent elderly population it will be interesting in a bad way. Yet generally the Japanese resist any attempts to even discuss the demographical problem - Koreans have it all over them there as at least there is discussion going on about the demographics in Korea.
Western societies are undergoing significant changes as they accommodate more and more immigrants from non traditional source countries of immigration. There are problems but non Asian societies stand a much better chance of meeting the challenges of changing demographics as traditionally they have seen mass movements of people. The benefits in the long run will outweigh the shorter term disadvantages.
Korea and Japan have a grim future if they keep refusing to incorporate diversity which is the lifeblood of successful societies and nations long term. |
Good points on the demographics.
The new Korean budget does include increased funding for parenting to encourage more children, although most who I've talked to say it's really just a drop in the bucket when compared to how much it costs to raise (spoil) a child in Korea.
But riding the subway in Korea during the daytime can be an eye-opening experience. It's like a moving old folks home and the subway stations are the highway rest areas where they take a bathroom break and gas up. |
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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Sun Jan 12, 2014 6:19 am Post subject: |
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| duhweecher wrote: |
| Isn't this post about Korea's obsession over hiring foreign experts? I fail to see the relevance of the last 3 or so pages. |
Attention deficit disorder, it goes hand in hand with the internet. |
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kengreen
Joined: 19 Jan 2011
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:06 am Post subject: |
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| South Korea is an economic powerhouse. Samsung. LG. Daewoo. They can afford all the foreign talent they want. |
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I'm With You
Joined: 01 Sep 2011
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Who's Your Daddy? wrote: |
Someone could hate Korea but recognize that be worse off in their own country; so they stay. I'd like to live in the south of France, but I couldn't afford to live there.
In Korea I'm upper middle class, but I don't really like the country.
In Canada I'd be poor, although I love the country.
[That said, I'm leaving because I don't want to raise my son here, but I understand while some people hate it, yet stay.] |
I like your phrasing here. And I agree. Look at the alternative, it's not pretty. You may hate Korean people and culture, but the alternative is not at all appealing.
At least here, you're flush with cash and can escape from the madness to a tropical beach and a cold beer and a woman regularly.
And I mean, is Canada that great?
If it is, then why are so many tens of thousands of you here! |
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Janny
Joined: 02 Jul 2008
Location: all over the place
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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Well if we're generalizing (oh the generalizing that this thread has produced!!)....we 10,000 people don't want to work in the oil industry.
We make our dollars in Asia and retire in some other (our own? maybe) beautiful country. That's how ya do it....nowadays.
Except for the poor saps who fall for a Korean partners. Oops!  |
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edwardcatflap
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Except for the poor saps who fall for a Korean partners. Oops! Razz |
Nearly all the 'poor saps' I know who married Asian partners have left this country with their Asian partners. One or two of the poor saps didn't even want to go. |
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