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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Mohammed Ali is more than just a boxer. |
All men are more than "just" their occupation, of course, but if you are trying to suggest that a serial divorcee who punched people in the head for money and became famous for doing so is a good "role model," then it may be difficult to persuade me.
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| For example, in a press conference articulating his opposition to the Vietnam War, Ali stated, "my enemy is the white people, not the Vietcong".[18] In relation to integration, he said: "We who follow the teachings of Elijah Muhammad don't want to be forced to integrate. Integration is wrong. We don't want to live with the white man; that's all."[88] And in relation to inter-racial marriage: "No intelligent black man or black woman in his or her right black mind wants white boys and white girls coming to their homes to marry their black sons and daughters."[88] Indeed, Ali's religious beliefs at the time included the notion that the white man was "the devil" and that white people were not "righteous." |
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While his beliefs were immature, that he stood up for them, at great personal cost, is admirable. As your phrase, "at the time," implies, his beliefs changed for the better as he grew.
His stance on the Vietnam War persuaded others to actively oppose it. He has been quite engaged in social activism. He was named a United Nations Messenger of Peace and is a philanthropist. His battles with Parkinson's have certainly inspired others in similar situations to fight on.
That you don't care for his field of endeavor in no way dims what he accomplished in it. To get to the top in any field requires a great deal of hard work. Ali was no exception. |
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Plain Meaning
Joined: 18 Oct 2014
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Mohammed Ali is more than just a boxer. |
All men are more than "just" their occupation, of course, but if you are trying to suggest that a serial divorcee who punched people in the head for money and became famous for doing so is a good "role model," then it may be difficult to persuade me.
| Quote: |
| For example, in a press conference articulating his opposition to the Vietnam War, Ali stated, "my enemy is the white people, not the Vietcong".[18] In relation to integration, he said: "We who follow the teachings of Elijah Muhammad don't want to be forced to integrate. Integration is wrong. We don't want to live with the white man; that's all."[88] And in relation to inter-racial marriage: "No intelligent black man or black woman in his or her right black mind wants white boys and white girls coming to their homes to marry their black sons and daughters."[88] Indeed, Ali's religious beliefs at the time included the notion that the white man was "the devil" and that white people were not "righteous." |
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He opposed the Vietnam War and he opposed white people when many were oppressing black people. Yeah, but he opposed inter-racial marriage. He must be old. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
That you don't care for his field of endeavor in no way dims what he accomplished in it. To get to the top in any field requires a great deal of hard work. Ali was no exception. |
The nature of his "field of endeavor" is exactly the issue here, because that "field of endeavor" was punching people in the head in front of hooting fans for money. And all of his fame and fortune stems back to that, so of course consistency demands that I regard it not as some awesome achievement worthy of praise, but as something vulgar; something which is a perfectly illustrative manifestation of the societal tendencies with which I'm taking issue. "But he was named a Messenger of Peace!" Yes, because a culture which worships celebrity was impressed by his punching. "But he has given away money!" Money earned doing something somewhere between trivial and outright horrible. "But he struggled with Parkinson's Disease!" Yes, he tried to continue punching heads for money despite having a disease, how very honorable. What's worse, the one act which I would otherwise be inclined to admire, opposition to the Vietnamese war, is ruined by his framing it in terms of racial hatred instead of in terms of justice, compassion, and peace. Even that one point upon which I'd love nothing more than to agree with the fellow, I can't.
I've got no idea how you thought this conversation was going to go, but you picked a bad example to bring up in defense of celebrity worship. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
That you don't care for his field of endeavor in no way dims what he accomplished in it. To get to the top in any field requires a great deal of hard work. Ali was no exception. |
The nature of his "field of endeavor" is exactly the issue here, because that "field of endeavor" was punching people in the head in front of hooting fans for money. And all of his fame and fortune stems back to that, so of course consistency demands that I regard it not as some awesome achievement worthy of praise, but as something vulgar; something which is a perfectly illustrative manifestation of the societal tendencies with which I'm taking issue. "But he was named a Messenger of Peace!" Yes, because a culture which worships celebrity was impressed by his punching. "But he has given away money!" Money earned doing something somewhere between trivial and outright horrible. "But he struggled with Parkinson's Disease!" Yes, he tried to continue punching heads for money despite having a disease, how very honorable. What's worse, the one act which I would otherwise be inclined to admire, opposition to the Vietnamese war, is ruined by his framing it in terms of racial hatred instead of in terms of justice, compassion, and peace. Even that one point upon which I'd love nothing more than to agree with the fellow, I can't.
I've got no idea how you thought this conversation was going to go, but you picked a bad example to bring up in defense of celebrity worship. |
I picked a bad example in your opinion. I wasn't interested in where this conversation was going to go, merely in stating my opinion. Nothing you've posted has changed that opinion, which has nothing to do with celebrity worship.
Sports, and in particular boxing, have been an avenue out of poverty for the underclasses. It's not just entertainment in such cases.
While you remain hung up on what a young, uneducated man under the sway of a charismatic leader said once upon a time, I find that Ali grew beyond that to be more emblematic of the man. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| I picked a bad example in your opinion. I wasn't interested in where this conversation was going to go, merely in stating my opinion. |
Okay then, thanks for letting me know your opinion. |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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Any fair and honest means of income is respected. You can minimize ANY job. A trash man who feeds his family "goes around and picks up rubbish people discard". Ali was an athlete. An elite one at that. One of the best if not the best. He worked and trained hard to become one. Most would respect that dedication. As to his views, he evolved. At the time, who could blame him for his views? The sum relationship Blacks in America had with Whites was not good overall. So, while I may disagree, its certainly reasonable to respect no inter-marriage based on the fact that as a collective Blacks (and other groups at some point like Gays, Jews, etc.) were (and some would argue still are) not accepted. Its like saying a German Jew who opposed intermarriage with Germans during the 30s to be something that is wrong. A bit of perspective and context for the times has to be in order. You're asking someone for a helluva lot to want interaction with a group that legally kept it 2nd class citizens.
As for Cosby, many of these women are to a large degree unreliable and questionable. http://dailycaller.com/2014/12/12/histories-of-several-cosby-accusers-cast-doubt-on-tales/ While anything is possible, if I apply a certain amount of reason to this, its something I would tend not to believe in its entirety for a few reasons. First, I don't care how powerful and famous you are, its pretty much impossible to get away with drugging and raping women for 40 years. Second, Cosby has a history of mentoring black actresses, actors and comedians. Robin Givens is one such famous one. However, the accusers are white women, some are questionable from as long as 40 years ago. In that time of America, Cosby isn't getting away with drugging them. One of his accusers said he abused during a taping of the Tonight Show and records show they were not together that evening on the show. It just doesn't smell right. He's 80. Why come forward now? He's been out of the limelight for a long, long time. Finally, someone with that degree of psychotic mannerisms can't stop. Can't help himself. He'd still be doing it today or at least up until several years assuming age has caught up. I'll need far, far more proof and logic behind it for me to take it too seriously. Hoping its not true but prepared for the small chance it is. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
| Any fair and honest means of income is respected. You can minimize ANY job. A trash man who feeds his family "goes around and picks up rubbish people discard". |
Garbage men are substantially more socially valuable than athletes. The fact that people struggle to see that is part of the issue at hand. Remove all the garbage men from your city and the results will be undesirable. Remove all the boxers from your city and the results will be somewhere between negligible and positive. It's precisely the obsession with celebrity that overlooks the genuinely useful and focuses slavishly on the flashy yet vapid; that heaps rewards upon those whose contribution to society is punching people in front of a crowd, while looking with contempt upon those who serve their fellow man. Dedication is only as valuable as its focus; courage is only laudable when exercised in the service of a laudable cause.
Here's what I don't understand: when I issue a criticism about a culture being celebrity-obsessed, why do participants in that culture think that their views or opinions on the matter do anything but reinforce my point? Of course they'd say things like, "Most would respect that dedication," because they are symptomatic of the phenomenon in question. Yes, I completely affirm that Sirius, Atwood, and PM are with the masses on this one; that most people would agree with them. If that makes them happy, well, good for them. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 6:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| sirius black wrote: |
| Any fair and honest means of income is respected. You can minimize ANY job. A trash man who feeds his family "goes around and picks up rubbish people discard". |
Garbage men are substantially more socially valuable than athletes. The fact that people struggle to see that is part of the issue at hand. Remove all the garbage men from your city and the results will be undesirable. Remove all the boxers from your city and the results will be somewhere between negligible and positive. It's precisely the obsession with celebrity that overlooks the genuinely useful and focuses slavishly on the flashy yet vapid; that heaps rewards upon those whose contribution to society is punching people in front of a crowd, while looking with contempt upon those who serve their fellow man. Dedication is only as valuable as its focus; courage is only laudable when exercised in the service of a laudable cause.
Here's what I don't understand: when I issue a criticism about a culture being celebrity-obsessed, why do participants in that culture think that their views or opinions on the matter do anything but reinforce my point? Of course they'd say things like, "Most would respect that dedication," because they are symptomatic of the phenomenon in question. Yes, I completely affirm that Sirius, Atwood, and PM are with the masses on this one; that most people would agree with them. If that makes them happy, well, good for them. |
Entertainment is a service. You seem to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Standing up for, in this case, Muhammed Ali, does not make one celebrity obsessed. The obsessions here , anti-boxing, anti-celebrity, are all yours.
But I dig the elitism. The world needs snobs. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Entertainment is a service. You seem to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. |
Some forms of entertainment uplift and improve us while others excite and draw out the worst in us, and I see no reason that approving of the former mandates support for the latter. Pushpin is not as good as poetry. And yes, entertainment is a "service," but that's precisely why I can legitimately compare it to the likes of garbage collection, and in the case of boxing, even find it wanting in the comparison.
Last edited by Fox on Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sirius black
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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| We can still function and have our basic needs met (trash, law enforcement, etc.) as a society without poets, writers, artists, musicians, etc. as well so we can include them with boxers. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| sirius black wrote: |
| We can still function and have our basic needs met (trash, law enforcement, etc.) as a society without poets, writers, artists, musicians, etc. as well so we can include them with boxers. |
When I said, "Pushpin is not as good as poetry," you felt the logical conclusion of that was that there is no qualitative distinction between different forms of entertainment, did you? |
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Leon
Joined: 31 May 2010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Entertainment is a service. You seem to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. |
Some forms of entertainment uplift and improve us while others excite and draw out the worst in us, and I see no reason that approving of the former mandates support for the latter. Pushpin is not as good as poetry. And yes, entertainment is a "service," but that's precisely why I can legitimately compare it to the likes of garbage collection, and in the case of boxing, even find it wanting in the comparison. |
There is the idea that competitive sports, including violent ones like boxing or football, serve as a proxy for actual violent competition, and help channel those impulses in a more constructive manner for both the participant and the viewer. It must be serving some kind of human need to appear in so many societies over time. Then again I find watching sports boring so I'm not too inclined to disagree too strongly. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Leon wrote: |
There is the idea that competitive sports, including violent ones like boxing or football, serve as a proxy for actual violent competition, and help channel those impulses in a more constructive manner for both the participant and the viewer. It must be serving some kind of human need to appear in so many societies over time. |
I see what you're trying to say, and I'm not even necessarily going to disagree with it. Instead, I'm going to take it and use it to support my own case. When does a sport improve us as people? Surely it's when we play it rather than watch it: there are real benefits to both physical and mental health to be had from playing sports, to say nothing of the potential psychological benefits. From such a position, it is not necessarily admirable to be good at a sport so much as a sport is worthwhile to the extent that it improves its practitioners (which boxing in particular does not seem to do, given the likelihood of ending up brain damaged). But just sitting and watching it? Perhaps it appeals to something in man's heart, but it doesn't seem to improve him, and that something may not necessarily be laudable. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Entertainment is a service. You seem to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. |
Some forms of entertainment uplift and improve us while others excite and draw out the worst in us, and I see no reason that approving of the former mandates support for the latter. Pushpin is not as good as poetry. And yes, entertainment is a "service," but that's precisely why I can legitimately compare it to the likes of garbage collection, and in the case of boxing, even find it wanting in the comparison. |
Poetry reading garbageman--cool concept.
Eliot read mystery novels and played solitaire to relax. Even poets need some everyman entertainment. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
Eliot read mystery novels and played solitaire to relax. Even poets need some everyman entertainment. |
That's true, everyone engages in some easy, passive entertainment at times, and there's nothing necessarily wrong with it. Remember, my focus was on contrasting "forms of entertainment uplift and improve us" with those that "excite and draw out the worst in us." Something like solitaire would probably fall into a neutral third category, perhaps beneficial in the same way that rest is beneficial, but having little impact on our development as human beings for better or worse. Trivial as a yawn is trivial, but sometimes one feels like yawning. |
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