Korean Job Discussion Forums

[bucheon bum]

the thing about ca is far-fetched because:

a) hispanics are not one solid group. Mexicans are different from Hondurans, who are different from Cubans, who are different from Puerto ricans.
b) there is an influx of other nationalities as well (primarily asian here in CA). The demographics will not become overwhelmingly hispanic.

A) also applies to the muslim fear. A muslim from Egypt is different from one in Morocco. Both are different from a dude in Malaysia. That's why I wouldn't be so worried about the UK, and especially the USA. On the other hand, that type of diversity w/in the muslim community is lacking in other parts of europe (esp France), where North Africans are the dominant presence.

If you really think muslims are a united group, just look at the Middle East as a primary example of them not being able to stick together. In college, I read a book by an Iranian who immigrated to the States and became an imam by default (he was the most well-read muslim in the area). One of the themes was how much conflict and division there was within the ummah (muslim community). I don't mean violent conflict or anything like that- just arguments and petty political intrigues.

Anyway, I really don't know what the situation is like in Europe but muslims here in the USA are fairly well-ingrained into american society for the most part. I think part of the reason is the muslims who have migrated to the states are better off than those that immigrate to Europe.

That's my little ramble for the evening.

[bigverne]

[Tiger Beer]

immigrants from muslim countries tend to be a lot different in different places.

When you read sources from Europe like http://www.danielpipes.org/article/450 you get the impression that they are the welfare recipients and a real strong underclass. Same with France where 70% of the prison population is from muslim origins.

Quite a bit different than the US.. I think in the US we already have a fairly hardcore underclass within our society already.. plus immigrants from muslim countries seem to generally be well-off, higher educated, and takes a lot more to get there. We have our problems, but most people of muslim descent in the US seem to be on the better end of things comparitively to african-americans and mexican immigrant groups.

In Europe, they are the predominant and largest minority group.. so therefore much more visible and larger %-wise than in North America.

[Summer Wine]

What you may find in Europe is that as it is close to North Africa and many muslims are able to immigrate easier, either legally or illegally. Cost of travel, movement opportunites etc. This may mean that there is a larger number of economic migrants to Europe than North America.

The desire for relatively cheaper and more abundent labor has probably helped to cement thier roles in Europe in the past. The influx of cheaper labor from Eastern Europe without the religious and cultural baggage may be influeincing the desire of the regions Governments to be as lenient or blind to the presence of illegals or economic migrants.

I sometimes note that the dispute about the role of muslim people in a historically non muslim culture and their benefit or danger to ones society seems to be mainly argued by the two ends of the political pendulem, without an equally weighted number of middle holding speakers balancing out the extreme points of the views.

It could be seen as a problem, if this is reflected in the societies we come from. If we are a small representation of our nation states, educated, etc, and we can't seem to discuss these issues well, what could we expect of our greater society. If the debates are being made by people with extremely opposing views, what happens to those who fall in the middle, the arguments and issues that need to get debated, that aren't extreme.

I apologise for not making myself clearer, my mind is just postulating as I write. After rereading it and hearing comments, I will try and explain myself better or provide more details to this post.

[bucheon bum]

Yeah, a Moroccon econ professor once told me the only difference between latin americans in america and north africans in europe is their religons.

While I think there are a few more differences than that, i do think the two situations are similar.

[guangho]

[bigverne]

An article that demonstrates that even after muslim terrorists killed 55 in London just two months ago, Britain is still allowing extremists a say in government policy. It is becoming increasingly clear that the government is unable to find any truly 'moderate' muslim leaders.

RECENTLY IN England, four Muslim-staffed committees appointed to advise Prime Minister Tony Blair and his Cabinet on issues related to Islam have come up with a recommendation: Get rid of an official event viewed as offensive to Muslims. What event would that be? A celebration of the Crusades, perhaps? No, Holocaust Memorial Day.

In the words of one committee member, ''The very name Holocaust Memorial Day sounds too exclusive to many young Muslims. It sends out the wrong signals: that the lives of one people are to be remembered more than others."

That ''one people," of course, are the Jews.

Alas, this is not a unique case. The same issue of the London Daily Telegraph that reported the attack on Holocaust Day carried another remarkable story. Ahmad Thomson, deputy chairman of Britain's Association of Muslim Lawyers and occasional adviser to the prime minister, recently claimed that Blair had been pressured into entering the Iraq war by a sinister conspiracy of Jews and Freemasons. In his 1994 book, ''The Next World Order," Thomson (a convert to Islam) claimed that the Holocaust is a ''big lie" and that the presence of US soldiers in Saudi Arabia is especially outrageous because many of them are Jewish.

These two stories illustrate an uncomfortable truth: The infection of anti-Jewish bigotry is alarmingly widespread in the Muslim community today, not only in predominantly Muslim and Arab countries -- where the media routinely circulate anti-Semitic libels and conspiracy theories while preachers and editorialists compare Jews to pigs and monkeys (the monkeys and pigs thing comes directly from the Koran) -- but in Western democracies as well.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/09/19/muslims_and_the_holocaust/

Apparently, the way to fight muslim extremism is to employ such extremists (sorry 'moderates') at the heart of government.

[Bulsajo]

[Summer Wine]

I agree with the above comment.

[bigverne]

Here's an example of Muslims tolerance for other religions. Once again, certain muslims seem to have totally misunderstood the essentially tolerant nature of their religion. Where did they go so horribly wrong?

Academic activities were yesterday disrupted at the Federal University of Technology (FUT) Minna, Niger State as suspected Muslim fundamentalists attacked female Christian students whom they accused of improper dressing.

The fracas which took place at Bosso campus of the university about 9 a.m., saw the armed fundamentalist invading the lecture-theatres and beating up female students they claimed were not properly dressed.

An eye witness informed Daily Champion that the fundamentalist numbering about six, dressed in black clothes with red bandage on their heads, disrupted lectures by beating unsuspecting female students with horse-whips for alleged improper dressing.

http://allafrica.com/stories/200509220311.html

[Summer Wine]

Yes, thats where the whole debate becomes unhinged. Fine, you want to practice your religion, Ok. Just don't force others who don't want to follow yours, especially if they already have one.

Imagine the uproar in my country and elsewhere, if non muslims ran into a Uni and started ripping off the head coverings of muslim students. It would not be a pretty discussion afterwards.

[shakuhachi]

Islam a 'Religion of peace'?

Qur��an 8:59 ��The infidels should not think that they can get away from us. Prepare against them whatever arms and weaponry you can muster so that you may terrorize them. They are your enemy and Allah��s enemy.��

Ishaq:204 ����Men, do you know what you are pledging yourselves to in swearing allegiance to this man?�� ��Yes. In swearing allegiance to him we are pledging to wage war against all mankind.����

Qur��an 4:77 ��Lord, why have You ordained fighting for us, why have You made war compulsory?��

Ishaq:602 ��The Apostle ordered Muslims to prepare for a military expedition so that he could raid the Byzantines.�� (Note: this is before the Crusades - Islam attacked first)

Bukhari:V4B52N44 ��A man came to Allah��s Apostle and said, ��Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad in reward.�� He replied, ��I do not find such a deed.����

Ishaq:240 ��The Jews are a nation of liars.... The Jews are a treacherous, lying, and evil people.��

Bukhari:V4B52N176 ��Allah��s Apostle said, ��You Muslims will fight the Jews till some of them hide behind stones. The stones will betray them saying, ��O Abdullah (slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.������

Tabari IX:131 ��My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was then brought in while the Messenger was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. Then the men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old.�� (Prophet like behavior?)

Bukhari:V9B86N98 ��The Prophet said, ��A virgin should not be married till she is asked for her consent.�� ��O Apostle! How will the virgin express her consent?�� He said, ��By remaining silent.���� (The Prophet falls afoul of university student code of conduct - lol)

Bukhari:V4B54N509 ��The Prophet said, ��Yawning is from Satan and if anyone of you yawns, he should check his yawning as much as possible, for if anyone of you during the act of yawning should say: ��Ha,�� Satan will laugh at him.����

Bukhari:V4B52N220 ��Allah��s Apostle said, ��I have been made victorious with terror.����

There are thousands of similar examples in the Koran and Hadiths (texts followed by muslims). People trying to justify or minimize muslim terrorism are just in denial.

[bigverne]

Only in the bizarre world of Islam would laws designed to protect the nation from mass slaughter be accused of inciting hatred. Maybe they should look inside their own mosques at the real incitment to hatred that often ends in the massacre of innocent civilians.

Muslims tell Howard: stop inciting hatred

Federation of Australian Muslim Students and Youth (FAMSY) National president Chaaban Omran said the Prime Minister, John Howard, had failed his community by not doing enough to stop anti-Muslim discourse.

How about the anti-infidel discourse Chaaban?

But he described Canberra's proposed new anti-terror laws as the largest infringement on the rights of Muslim Australians.

Sorry Chaaban, but inciting hatred, calling for the downfall of the West and supporting terrorist groups are not inherent rights. If you live by the law you have nothing to fear, so why the complaints? Worried that you won't be able to get away with your calls for Jihad anymore?

"There is nowhere in the religion of Islam that condones the killings of innocent civilians or non-combatants," he said.

Shouldn't you be telling Jamaat-I-Islamiyaah, Islamic Jihad or the numerous other Islamic groups that seem to think the opposite. You should not be trying to persuade us of that, but your co-religionists all over the world.

Mr Howard flagged a new package of security measures, including tighter checks on citizenship applicants, jail terms for inciting violence and police powers to detain suspects without charge for up to a fortnight.

What a gross infringement on the rights of muslims!

"That needs to be accepted and made clear by the [Howard] Government andit must request that the media promote that, rather than just saying every single terrorist is a Muslim and therefore the religion itself causes terrorism.

Mr Omran seems to misunderstand the concept of freedom of speech, as do many muslims in the West. There needs to be a vigorous debate in the media about Islam, terrorism and whether there are links between the two. The government has no place 'requesting' the media to produce the sanitised version of Islam Mr Omran wishes, even though this is what they do anyway.

"We all moved out to this country because we thought we would be able to carry out our traditions and our cultures"

Translation: We have no intention whatsoever of integrating into Australian society.

How do anti-terror laws impinge on muslim culture exactly? Unless violent Jihad and inciting terror and hatred are a part of muslim culture (which are not surely?) then what is the problem?

If muslims were serious about reducing anti-muslim sentiments, they would be best advised to stop defending extremists, and to stop claiming that anti-terror laws are some attack against Islam.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/muslims-tell-howard-stop-inciting-hatred/2005/09/25/1127586737342.html

[bigverne]

Australia is now battling it out with the Poms for this year's Dhimmi of the Year Award. According to this multiculturalist piece of garbage, it's ok to beat your wife....if you're a muslim. Different culture you see.

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/printpage/0%2C5481%2C17026063%2C00.html

Police told to respect traditions
Liam Houlihan, religious affairs reporter
25oct05

POLICE are being advised to treat Muslim domestic violence cases differently out of respect for Islamic traditions and habits.

Officers are also being urged to work with Muslim leaders, who will try to keep the families together.

Women's groups are concerned the politically correct policing could give comfort to wife bashers and keep their victims in a cycle of violence.

The instructions come in a religious diversity handbook given to Victorian police officers that also recommends special treatment for suspects of Aboriginal, Hindu and Buddhist background.

Some police officers have claimed the directives hinder enforcing the law equally.

Police are told: "In incidents such as domestic violence, police need to have an understanding of the traditions, ways of life and habits of Muslims."

They are told it would be appreciated in cases of domestic violence if police consult the local Muslim religious leader who will work against "fragmenting the family unit".

And what if Imam Ahmed agrees with the Koranic justification for wifebeating?

Amazing how so many liberal multiculturalist seem to put the need to not offend Islam before the rights of muslim women.

[mithridates]

What's even funnier about that is that it's insulting to the immigrant too. It assumes that they're not even capable of learning what's right and wrong in the country they've chosen to live in.