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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:23 am Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
I will say this to everyone that has something to say about racism in America, including Americans:
Unless you have spent more thatn 5 years in an area that was more than 40% minority, you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Your thoughts and opinions are nothing more than idealist, uneducated, and unexperienced drivel. |
Except if they agree with your ideas, or hereby accept them dogmatically, right? |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:30 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| Pligganease wrote: |
I will say this to everyone that has something to say about racism in America, including Americans:
Unless you have spent more thatn 5 years in an area that was more than 40% minority, you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Your thoughts and opinions are nothing more than idealist, uneducated, and unexperienced drivel. |
Except if they agree with your ideas, or hereby accept them dogmatically, right? |
Nope. If you have lived in an area that I describe, and you disagre with my thoughts, I will said, "Well met." I just hate it when people try to say that Americans, particularly southerners, are sooooo racist and they went to a high school that had 3 minority students. |
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Pyongshin Sangja
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: I love baby!
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 3:40 am Post subject: |
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Back to race:
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| Treatment of African Americans in Oregon exemplified what could happen. In 1844 the provisional government prohibited African Americans, both free and slave, from entering and living in Oregon. This effort was not unusual at the time; most new states and territories were populated by migrants who hated blacks as well as slavery and wanted to eliminate one or both of them from their new places of residence. White settlers in early Oregon in 1844 acted to outlaw blacks after two episodes led them to think that African Americans were likely to provoke or even encourage Indians to attack the new settlements. (See Thomas C. McClintock, "James Saules, Peter Burnett, and the Oregon Black Exclusion Law of June 1844," Pacific Northwest Quarterly 86 [Summer 1995]: 121-30.) In 1849 the legislature of Oregon Territory continued the exclusion of African Americans; when Oregonians voted on a new constitution, prior to becoming a state in 1859, they voted by eight-to-one to prolong the exclusion. Although not rigidly enforced, the exclusion law remained on the books until the 1920s. Of course, the most lasting lines meant to divide peoples within the region were those intended to segregate native peoples on reservations |
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http://www.washington.edu/uwired/outreach/cspn/hstaa432/lesson_10/hstaa432_10.html
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SYLVIA ESTES STARK (1838-1944)
She may have been less than five feet tall and may have worn a size two or three shoe, but Sylvia Stark played a huge role in shaping the history of the Pacific Northwest. In the middle 1800's, Stark was among those Black Americans who migrated to an island they named Salt Spring, off the coast of Vancouver, British Columbia, in southwestern Canada. That free but fierce land was Stark's home until her death at age 106.
Stark's father thought his family's troubles were over when he had earned enough money in the California gold mines to buy his family out of enslavement in Missouri. But after White men surrounded their home at night and threatened to torch it, the family soon fled to California.
California, however, was as dangerous as Missouri. Even free Blacks risked being kidnapped and taken South. As a result, Stark and her family eagerly joined some 600 Blacks who moved to various parts of British Columbia, where they'd been promised the rights of full citizens. |
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1264/is_n10_v28/ai_20187691#continue |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| The Monroe Doctrine...was originally proposed by Great Britain to the United States as a possible bi-lateral treaty. |
There's an excellent British-centered account of this diplomacy in Kaufmann's British Policy and the Independence of Latin America, 1804-1828 -- an old, but still first-rate history.
Monroe and Adams took the foreign secretary, Lord Canning, somewhat by surprise, as I recall. Canning called in the U.S. ambassador, held up the declaration, and basically laughed at it, whereupon the ambassador more or less shrugged his shoulders.
Like you said, it was a bold, unilateral move that simply went unchallenged for many decades because it also happened to conform to what London wanted (an open market there).
As Canning later told Parliament: he called the New World into being to redress the imbalance of the Old.
It's fascinating how so many of the Canadian posters here would revise history so that it would better justify their antiAmericanism and also conform to Canadian pretentions to moral superiority.
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:53 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 5:20 am Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| Nope. If you have lived in an area that I describe, and you disagre with my thoughts, I will said, "Well met." I just hate it when people try to say that Americans, particularly southerners, are sooooo racist and they went to a high school that had 3 minority students. |
Racism is real. It is a real problem in the U.S. South and elsewhere. You don't have to have lived there to comprehend this.
It is also a real problem, however, everywhere else in the world, as it is a human-created problem and not a U.S.-created problem, the allegations of our Canadian friends here notwithstanding. |
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Pyongshin Sangja
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: I love baby!
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| It's fascinating how so many of the Canadian posters here would revise history so that it would better justify their antiAmericanism and also conform to Canadian pretentions to moral superiority. |
You're several points behind already.
Hurry up, old man. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:31 am Post subject: |
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Certain claims appear on this thread on the theme of immigration, refugees, and multiculturalism in Canada, particularly in the early pages.
We are told, for example, that twenty-five percent of Canadians are foreign born (this thread, p. 2).
But what do Canadian immigrants think? Here is one link run by ex-Canadian immigrants, with several stories from CBC available for viewing:
| Quote: |
Top Eight Reasons NOT to Immigrate to Canada:
8. Discriminatory and Dishonest Immigration System.
Immigration to Canada is based on a point system, obtained with your education, qualifications and job experience. Points are good enough for immigration, but in Canada, they are not good enough to get a job in your field. Amazing, how the credentials that qualify you to come to Canada are the same credentials that don't qualify you for your profession in Canada. The reason is, Canada only wants immigrants to do the labor jobs - pizza delivery, driving taxis, factory work etc.
7. Out Of Control Cost Of Living.
From rent, to utility bills, to shopping, to phone, internet and cable bills, to gas, to car insurance, to eating out, to basically anything you have to pay for or buy, the cost of living in Canada has become astronomical. Recent immigrants are astonished as to how expensive everything is. It is estimated that compared to most countries around the world, the cost of living in Canada is on average five times greater.
6. Health Care Crisis.
Practicing physicians in Canada are in a shortage, 1 in 4 Canadians cannot get a family doctor. Canadian doctors are leaving to move permanently to the United States. Statistics Canada and the Canadian Medical Association both have identified that for every 1 American doctor that moves to Canada, 19 (nineteen) Canadian doctors move to the United States! Doctors in Canada are overworked and underpaid, and there is a cap on their salaries.
5. Very High Taxes.
Yes, you have the GST, the PST, totaling 15%, on practically everything you purchase and many other taxes taken out of our weekly paycheck. You have to pay a whopping amount to the government, out of your hard earned salary, so that the government can turn around and give it to beer drinking, hockey watching welfare bums. Fair? It does not matter, it's Canada.
4. Money Hungry Government.
Canadian Embassies around the world lie to foreigners, painting this picture that Canada is Utopia, because they want them to come to Canada. Why? Because foreigners bring money! So after being deceived, these foreigners come. They must bring with them at least $10,000. Canada has an immigration quota of 250,000 per year. So please do the math, 250,000 multiplied by $10,000 each equals a whopping 2.5 Billion dollars that Canada gains from immigrants every year.
3. No Culture.
Unlike almost every other country in the world, Canada has no culture. Actually American culture is what dominates Canada. When was the last time you had some 'Canadian' food? There are no Canadian traditions and there is no national identity. What does it even mean to call yourself a 'Canadian'. . .nothing really. People living in Canada, still identify themselves with the country they 'originally' came from.
2. Worst Weather.
Yes, Canada has the worst weather conditions of any country in the world. Freezing cold temperatures, snow, ice, hail, winds, storms etc. From the Prairie provinces to the Maritimes, from the Territories to southern Ontario, the weather is so horrific and disgusting that many Canadians leave Canada simply because of this reason alone.
1. No Jobs.
Yes, coast to coast, there are no jobs. Immigrants are highly qualified (MD's, PhD's, Lawyers, Engineers etc.) but they are driving taxi cabs, delivering pizza's or working in factories. Even people with bachelors degrees from Canadian Universities cannot find jobs after graduation. This is the tragedy associated with immigration to Canada. I feel sorry for those immigrants who are stuck in Canada for the rest of their lives. It is indeed a very sad and hopeless future.
written by
Asad Raza, M.D.
www.NotCanada.com
This list was published in the Ottawa Citizen: CLICK HERE
Please do not believe the fancy websites made by the Government of Canada or by the Canadian immigration laywers. They are not telling you the truth. Do your own research! |
http://www.caribbeanmedicine.com/notcanada/top8reasons.htm |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
Certain claims appear on this thread on the theme of immigration, refugees, and multiculturalism in Canada, particularly in the early pages.
We are told, for example, that twenty-five percent of Canadians are foreign born (this thread, p. 2).
But what do Canadian immigrants think? Here is one link run by ex-Canadian immigrants, with several stories from CBC available for viewing:
| Quote: |
Top Eight Reasons NOT to Immigrate to Canada:
8. Discriminatory and Dishonest Immigration System.
Immigration to Canada is based on a point system, obtained with your education, qualifications and job experience. Points are good enough for immigration, but in Canada, they are not good enough to get a job in your field. Amazing, how the credentials that qualify you to come to Canada are the same credentials that don't qualify you for your profession in Canada. The reason is, Canada only wants immigrants to do the labor jobs - pizza delivery, driving taxis, factory work etc.
7. Out Of Control Cost Of Living.
From rent, to utility bills, to shopping, to phone, internet and cable bills, to gas, to car insurance, to eating out, to basically anything you have to pay for or buy, the cost of living in Canada has become astronomical. Recent immigrants are astonished as to how expensive everything is. It is estimated that compared to most countries around the world, the cost of living in Canada is on average five times greater.
6. Health Care Crisis.
Practicing physicians in Canada are in a shortage, 1 in 4 Canadians cannot get a family doctor. Canadian doctors are leaving to move permanently to the United States. Statistics Canada and the Canadian Medical Association both have identified that for every 1 American doctor that moves to Canada, 19 (nineteen) Canadian doctors move to the United States! Doctors in Canada are overworked and underpaid, and there is a cap on their salaries.
5. Very High Taxes.
Yes, you have the GST, the PST, totaling 15%, on practically everything you purchase and many other taxes taken out of our weekly paycheck. You have to pay a whopping amount to the government, out of your hard earned salary, so that the government can turn around and give it to beer drinking, hockey watching welfare bums. Fair? It does not matter, it's Canada.
4. Money Hungry Government.
Canadian Embassies around the world lie to foreigners, painting this picture that Canada is Utopia, because they want them to come to Canada. Why? Because foreigners bring money! So after being deceived, these foreigners come. They must bring with them at least $10,000. Canada has an immigration quota of 250,000 per year. So please do the math, 250,000 multiplied by $10,000 each equals a whopping 2.5 Billion dollars that Canada gains from immigrants every year.
3. No Culture.
Unlike almost every other country in the world, Canada has no culture. Actually American culture is what dominates Canada. When was the last time you had some 'Canadian' food? There are no Canadian traditions and there is no national identity. What does it even mean to call yourself a 'Canadian'. . .nothing really. People living in Canada, still identify themselves with the country they 'originally' came from.
2. Worst Weather.
Yes, Canada has the worst weather conditions of any country in the world. Freezing cold temperatures, snow, ice, hail, winds, storms etc. From the Prairie provinces to the Maritimes, from the Territories to southern Ontario, the weather is so horrific and disgusting that many Canadians leave Canada simply because of this reason alone.
1. No Jobs.
Yes, coast to coast, there are no jobs. Immigrants are highly qualified (MD's, PhD's, Lawyers, Engineers etc.) but they are driving taxi cabs, delivering pizza's or working in factories. Even people with bachelors degrees from Canadian Universities cannot find jobs after graduation. This is the tragedy associated with immigration to Canada. I feel sorry for those immigrants who are stuck in Canada for the rest of their lives. It is indeed a very sad and hopeless future.
written by
Asad Raza, M.D.
www.NotCanada.com
This list was published in the Ottawa Citizen: CLICK HERE
Please do not believe the fancy websites made by the Government of Canada or by the Canadian immigration laywers. They are not telling you the truth. Do your own research! |
http://www.caribbeanmedicine.com/notcanada/top8reasons.htm |
That can't be true! Canada is perfect!  |
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Thunndarr
Joined: 30 Sep 2003
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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This seems like a good spot for this. From Canada.com, fyi.
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TORONTO -- Ask any Canadian to define the typical Canuck and among the descriptions proffered is sure to be: "We're not like Americans."
After all, Americans are brash, arrogant and aggressive. We Canadians, on the other hand, are polite, modest and somewhat introverted.
We're as different from our neighbours to the south as, well, beavers are from bald eagles.
Aren't we?
Not according to a study of national personalities, which found that this time-honoured perception of our oh-so-unique Canadian psyche -- and other cultures' stereotypes of themselves -- are in fact just so much hooey.
"These stereotypes are as Canadians see themselves and Americans as they see themselves," said Robert McCrae of the U.S. National Institute on Aging, a principal investigator of the study on national personalities around the world.
"Canadians think they're extremely agreeable; the Americans think they're very disagreeable," he said. "Canadians believe that they're very calm and not irritable, very even-tempered, whereas Americans think they're more anxious and hostile.
"The fact is Canadians and Americans have almost identical average personality traits."
In a measure of five main areas of personality, covering a total of 30 traits, Canadians and their U.S. cousins fell roughly in the middle. Not only that, but they weren't all that different from other cultures around the globe, researchers found.
The study, published in the latest issue of Science, collected data through personality questionnaires given to thousands of people living in 49 countries.
Over and over, stereotypes about different nationalities emerged, but all were left wanting.
"These are very interesting sociological phenomena," McCrae said. "They get made into myths and they turn up in literature and in songs and in jokes and kind of have a life of their own."
Take the Brits, for example, whose national character is typically viewed as reserved and stalwart.
"The English showed the worst agreement in the entire set between the stereotype and the measured personality," said McCrae. "The stereotype of the English is that they're very reserved, whereas as in fact English are extroverts.
"And English think that they're relatively conventional and closed, but compared to most people in the world, they're pretty open to experience."
Germany was one example in which at least part of the stereotype matched reality, he said. "Germans think that they're conscientious and industrious and they measured out as conscientious and industrious."
Argentines believe they're a nation of disagreeable folk, and that reputation is pervasive throughout Latin America. But Argentines scored as average on the agreeableness scale.
McCrae noted that one Canadian researcher, upon seeing the results, said: " `Well, the Canadians are not going to like this story, because they really want to believe that they are much nicer than Americans.'
"I think that shows that at least one of the functions that stereotypes serve is to assert a national identity. We want to distinguish ourselves from Americans, so we'll invent some kind of difference and exaggerate it, and in this case it has to do with things like agreeableness," he said of the so-called Canadian identity.
Paul Trapnell, a professor of psychology at the University of Winnipeg, agreed that claiming particular national character traits can support certain motives: differentiating a population from other cultures and building its self-esteem.
"So we'll try to see ourselves as different from Americans and the differences we'll latch onto are the differences that also serve our desire to think good about ourselves," said Trapnell, one of three Canadian researchers who contributed data to the study.
What he found interesting was how homogenous the notion of the "typical Canuck" was across the country.
"The views that persons in Vancouver have about Canadians are very similar to the views that Nova Scotians have about Canadians," Trapnell said. "So we do possess a somewhat loosely organized but shared perception of what our national character is like, even though that shared perception doesn't turn out to be a real one."
What another country does on the world stage or on home soil may also contribute to national stereotypes, suggested psychologist Delroy Paulhus of the University of British Columbia, who also took part in the study.
"Canadians confuse typical Americans with their country's foreign policy, which seems belligerent," Paulhus said by e-mail. "Or Canadians extrapolate the higher rate of crime in the U.S. to infer typical character."
Whatever the reasons, typecasting an entire people can be dangerous, the authors say, leading to prejudice, discrimination and persecution.
"Clearly it tells us that we need to be very cautious about making generalizations about groups of people, any kind of groups of people," McCrae said. "Because often those generalizations are unfounded.
"Instead, what we have to do is remind ourselves that we're dealing with individuals, and regardless of what their nationality or their age or their gender, we should look at their personality as it is in themselves."
© Canadian Press 2005 |
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flakfizer
Joined: 12 Nov 2004
Location: scaling the Cliffs of Insanity with a frayed rope.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:59 pm Post subject: |
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About Vancouver...
I was there once. It might be a nice place to live, but it was a pretty lame place to visit. That "world's longest pedestrian bridge" thing was the biggest rip-off of my life. I saw some other stuff, but not too impressed. I liked Toronto better, though the CN Tower was probably the second biggest rip-off of my life. The cost to go up is much higher than to go up the Sears or John Hancock and the view is nothing. I mean, the CN Tower IS the Toronto skyline. Once you're in it, there's nothing to see. |
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Pyongshin Sangja
Joined: 20 Apr 2003
Location: I love baby!
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Wow, Gopher. I quote The Economist, you quote some wingnut website that offers nothing to back up its claims. I thought quoting the Washington Times was bad enough. |
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Pligganease
Joined: 14 Sep 2004
Location: The deep south...
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Pyongshin Sangja wrote: |
| Wow, Gopher. I quote The Economist, you quote some wingnut website that offers nothing to back up its claims. I thought quoting the Washington Times was bad enough. |
Are any of the assertions made on that site untrue?
(Excellent use of the word "wingnut," though. You get a sticker.) |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Pligganease wrote: |
| Are any of the assertions made on that site untrue? |
Yes. I, too, would like Pyongshin Sangja to elaborate on which claims are invalid and how she knows this...and why she objects to these immigrants' views of Canada. |
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mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:08 am Post subject: |
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No worries, I'll do it.
| Quote: |
| 8. Discriminatory and Dishonest Immigration System. |
Not really. The point system is all right, and it lets people know up-front whether they have a chance or not. There are bonuses for language ability in both English and French, and I wish Korea had that. An extra ten points or so are assigned when Canada needs immigrants from a certain place. What's needed is better communication between universities in other countries and recognizing foreign credentials for skilled immigrants was one of the parts of the conservative platform in the last election.
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| 7. Out Of Control Cost Of Living. |
Um...not really. Taxes are a bigger problem. We'll get to that.
| Quote: |
| 6. Health Care Crisis. |
No. For people who live off of doctors, maybe. I never had a problem. The Green Party has the best platform for health care.
| Quote: |
| 5. Very High Taxes. |
Yep. High taxes. The GST was used well to pay down the deficit during Chretien's years though and Canada's had a huge budget surplus for over a decade now. Hopefully Martin doesn't screw anything up from being in bed with the NDP.
| Quote: |
| 4. Money Hungry Government. |
Sure, Canada gets money from immigrants. So what? They want to live there.
Anyone who says that has never read Robertson Davies. STFU about culture. Looking down on girls for smoking in the street is Korean 'culture'.
Yeah, besides BC the weather is pretty shitty.
This is also a problem.
What the hell is that booming sound outside? Ah, fireworks. |
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Nowhere Man
Joined: 08 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:56 am Post subject: ... |
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First off: As an expat: Korea is the most EXTREME place I've ever been in terms of American-Canadian tensions.
Move to Taiwan, the Aussies gain a hold.
Move to Bangkok: You can meet Korean expats who fully understand criticism of their country. Why? Because Bangkok is full of expats from just about every country in the world. The job market is another issue, but it's very cosmopolitan. Why piss on someone else's nationality? What need?
Why am I even back here? To get the credentials to go back or elsewhere. Meeting Aussies, Brits, and Kiwis is highly unusual in Seoul.
Honestly, all the Canadians I met for a long time were those on American soil. They're so nice.
Those with a chip on their shoulder I met abroad. I mean those who would make an issue of America and Canada.
And, yes, I had people telling me, "You should go to Canada. It's much more mellow."
Quite specifically, I lived about 2 hours south of Montreal during college. I went there multiple times.
I DID NOT need someone telling me how "mellow" it was.
Moreover, in a staff-room, I don't need someone shoving their nationality down my throat at the same time talking bout how "mellow" they were.
Quite specifically, I've been in (at least one)staff-room where highlyvocal Canucks were declaring their superiority over America for being "mellow".
It was, as I perceived, talking down to me.
This is a contradiction in terms, and I have yet to be anywhere where an American starts spouting off about how great America is. American expats tend to be more globally informed and aware. In such a case, it's futile to go off on said people for their nationality.
In other words, you're probably preaching to the choir.
On the other hand, there is far more valid criticism of the US in terms of history and such.
You have to own up.
GOPHER
GOPHER
GOPHER
GOPHER
GOPHER
It's always nice when everyone is up to something bad except for you.
Especially when you can blame them for being jealous.
Stick to what you know.
Don't demean yourself.
Your stance may be flaccid, but it's a matter of credibility.  |
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