|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Homer
Guest
|
 Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 4:38 am Post subject: |
 |
|
Kiwi,
Just out of curiosity, what exactly is our fair market value here?
And what do you base this value on (how do you come to the end number)?
I would like to hear your theory.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
mithridates
Joined: 03 Mar 2003
Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
I can think of a way to assess our market value.
First find a few positions that require a certain TOEIC score, estimate the number of hours of study it takes to reach that level with vs. without a teacher, then factor in the increase in salary, and multiply by the number of years the person expects to work in that position.
Other things to add are the added convenience when travelling overseas, increased ability to get MDs and so on at world-recognized universities, and so on.
It's all individual I suppose, but there is a definate market value, and it's quite high. The value is higher for those who aren't able to go all the way to a hagwon because of time constraints, or due to being famous.
I suppose the easiest way to calculate it would be a hagwon price, plus a bit more for having the teacher come over, plus a little bit more for all the individual attention. Add a bit more if the teacher is fluent in Korean when the student is still low-level. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mack the knife
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: standing right behind you...
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:48 am Post subject: |
|
|
There is only one thing immoral and/or illegal in this great wide world.
Getting caught.
Amen. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 12:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Kiwi,
Just out of curiosity, what exactly is our fair market value here?
And what do you base this value on (how do you come to the end number)?
I would like to hear your theory....
|
My mum taught me it was not polite to talk about money! 
But in case you're worried about my poor students, this is what I bring to the table ...
BA Eng lit
Dip Ed English/Music
Three years experience in Korea
Mid level Korean
Well prepared lessons
I'm patient and I love teaching |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
steroidmaximus
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Location: GangWon-Do
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Ody wrote:
| Quote: |
| ever use the word spouse? |
Yes, I know what the word means you nitpicker. But if you had read the whole thread you'd have noticed I was responding directly to a male. 
As for how much it would take you to get set up, I'm not sure of the exact costs, since I didn't make it that far yet. But I did figure out that you shouldn't list yourself as an English school, since the regulations on this are somewhat daunting. Remember, you are a consultant Just yesterday I was asked to write a speech, so there you go. That doesn't fit under the rubric "English teacher". |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gord
Joined: 25 Feb 2003
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 6:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| kiwiboy_nz_99 wrote: |
| Quote: |
In theory, if a person on a work visa breaks the law, the person who sponsored their visa may have to pay their fine and other costs related to the arrest and deportation, plus the losses involved in having to replace a teacher who is deported and losses for having paid to get someone here who then failed to complete the length of their work contract.
How is it not immoral for a teacher to put the person who sponsored their visa at such risk for the costs, particularly after most contracts specifically cite that the employee cannot work for anyone else and the teacher promises not to work elsewhere?
|
As you said, the first part where you mention the fine and deportation costs is "in theory". I don't know the exact law but in every story I've heard about a person getting busted for privates the teacher pays the fine and the cost of getting home. |
True, historically a person busted for privates generally pays their own way out. The point being that if they don't pay their own fines, they sit in the lock-up until someone does. Eventually if a foreigner in detention is unable to get anyone to pay for the fines (plus the cost of detention which can be billed if desired), they can force the person who sponsored the visa to cough up the cash.
So while the visa sponsor is generally the last person the list to be hit up for cash, they are legally liable for the fines and possible deportation costs if a teacher does not pay their own fine. Plus fines can go as high as 20 million Won even before factoring in the tax fraud aspect of it. Remember, the visa sponsor agrees to pay any fines if the teacher can not/will not pay. Further still, if a person is shifted off to jail (as can happen in a tax fraud case), you pay your way in jail as jail is not free in Korea. Further adding to the cost risk.
I say in theory only because historically most people receive a minor fine (500K - 1M) and told not to do that, but the upper limits are quite high indeed.
| Quote: |
| As for the cost of getting a new teacher, I can't really defend against that except to say that the law is there make sure that the bulk of the huge amount of money in the esl market goes into the hands of Hagwon owners while we have the skills and do the work. So sure it's not fair on them if we get busted, but then again it's not fair on us that they pay us so much less than our market value, and that we can't do privates. |
Just out of curiousity, who do you think pays for the secretaries, janitors, rent, power, water, phones, busing, managing, Internet, and every other cost in running a school? If schools were giant money magnets lining the pockets of every director or owner, then not a single school would close.
Let's look at the average hogwan I've worked in when I first arrived here. Generally, there have been about 10 students a class (some larger, some smaller), with each student paying about 5000 Won per class hour.
50,000 per class. 250,000 per day, 5M per month. (20 class days a month).
HOLY CRAP! The school is making nothing but money off me! How dare I only make 40% of the money I generate.
Oh, wait. Crap. That 5M includes tax. Knock off 10%.
Of the 4.5M, I make 2M. Leaving the owner with a profit of 2.5M. I'M BEING ROBBED!
Wait, wait. Housing costs. Let's say 300,000. Leaving the director with a profit of 2.2M. I'M BEING ROBBED! I make 2.3, and he makes 2.2! Almost as much as me and I do all the work!
Wait, wait. Rent. In newer places classes are pretty expensive. For just a classroom and social area, that will cost upwards of a million Won a month when utilities and other costs are included. I'm being robbed! The school owner is still making 1.3M a month FOR DOING NOTHING!
Wait, phones. That costs money. And a secretary. That too. And the bus and bus driver. Janitor. Internet costs. Class upkeep costs, blah blah blah. And we haven't even factored in the cost yet of getting a teacher here which costs around 2.5M Won including recruiter fee, air tickets, and visa related costs (so more than 200,000 a month assuming a teacher stays an entire year). And if a teacher stays a year, they get another 8.5% bonus that works about to be about 170,000 Won a month.
Leaving the director working for free.
Yep. Sure looks like the director is robbing you blind. Which is why the only companies that are reliably profitable month after month are the ones that have larger class sizes.
My name is Gord. I used to run a successful small business. Can you tell? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Homer
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 7:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Kiwi,
I do not care what you 'bring to the table' nor am I worried about your students.... 
Try and read my post before going off on some paranoid tangent....
I was asking what you think our market value as teachers is here and how you come to that figure-value.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Bobster
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 8:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Last time the concept was taught to me, "fair market value" means pretty much whatever people are willing to pay, which is influenced by how much they want it and how scarce something is.
As with many things which are illegal yet still intensely desired, laws intended to eliminate private teaching in fact only makes it more lucrative for people who are willing to take the risks of being caught.
Anyone here who is teaching privately and happy about the big money they are making are kidding themselves if they truly think they want it to be legalized - they will then make less and have a harder time finding students. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 30, 2004 11:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| The Bobster wrote: |
| Anyone here who is teaching privately and happy about the big money they are making are kidding themselves if they truly think they want it to be legalized - they will then make less and have a harder time finding students. |
This should be made a sticky!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kiwiboy_nz_99
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Location: ...Enlightenment...
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 1:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
Leaving the director working for free.
Yep. Sure looks like the director is robbing you blind. Which is why the only companies that are reliably profitable month after month are the ones that have larger class sizes.
My name is Gord. I used to run a successful small business. Can you tell? |
I'll argue with you that black music is not created mainly by non blacks, but that last thing I want to argue with you is about money, cause I'd lose.
I just have a feeling that my ownermaking money. Your little excercise accounted for one teacher, but you had two different kinds of costs in your exercise, ones which were incurred per teacher eg housing and airfare, and ones which were static eg phones and secretary and so on, so surely with mutlitple teachers there starts to be some profit. My owner three Hagwons plus numerous other business, yet he still did all his accounting with a pen an paper not a computer spread sheet. I was told he was connected to the Pohang mob and it's quite possible the way he looked and acted. He hardly ever came into the school, just left his daughter to run it. And when he wanted me back for a second year and I said I wanted to go on to a uni job he refused my release letter even though I had done everything perfectly. I was lucky the uni I applied to had some connections at immigration.
Homer, Bobster answered the question about market value. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 2:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
Put this in perspective a very big hogwon chain SLP (Ilsan) charged well over 140,000 a month two years ago and they had no room for more students when I checked. At like 13 (or more) students per class at 140,000 (it is probably more now) it adds up to big money for the hogwon. It comes to like 13-14,000 won a hour per student.
Call up the big chains and ask them what their tution is - you'll see.
You are not taking 40% of the money you are taking less than 15 % of the money - not 40%.
Big chains are making a killing. And the laws are the way they are probably because they want them that way. There is nothing wrong with doing privates. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Phoenix
Joined: 03 Jun 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 3:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
You are not taking 40% of the money you are taking less than 15 % of the money - not 40%.
Big chains are making a killing. And the laws are the way they are probably because they want them that way. There is nothing wrong with doing privates. |
With the big chains I'd think that the franchise owners would be taking quite a big bite of the individual franchise profits every month.
More students also means more foreign teachers, so it's not unreasonable to suggest that the total percentage for foreign worker wages could arrive at 40% then. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 5:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
but again 140,000 won or more per student for 90 minutes 3 times a week - 18 hours of hogwon classes a month. with 13 or even 16 in a class... More teachers doesn't matter.
the big chains are making a killing |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Homer
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Big chains are making a killing. And the laws are the way they are probably because they want them that way. There is nothing wrong with doing privates. |
Joop...thats funny.
How dare schools (private businesses) want to make money!
Thats scandalous....
As for your link between pvts laws and big chains its no link at all.
Bobster made an excellent point in this thread about the fact that if pvts were legalized then fees would go down.
Kiwi, I noticed that bobster did indeed answer my Q about market value, its all good then. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ody
Joined: 27 Jan 2003
Location: over here
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 31, 2004 6:56 am Post subject: |
|
|
| steroidmaximus wrote: |
Ody wrote:
| Quote: |
| ever use the word spouse? |
Yes, I know what the word means you nitpicker. But if you had read the whole thread you'd have noticed I was responding directly to a male.
|
lame.
but that's another thread. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
