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| Total Votes : 69 |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| JustJohn wrote: |
It's irrelevant whether people normally strike vulnerable points in a street fight. Most people are stupid. It's the most effective, and the OP asked what was the most effective.
Now you're right, you're not going to want to straight up maim someone in a bar fight unless they pull a knife or something. However, that WOULD be the "most effective" thing to do, and again, that's what the OP asked. Plus, not all vulnerable spot strikes are maiming or killing. There are plenty that just knock the guy out or whatever, which would work nicely for less serious fights which are admittedly much more common. |
Yes but consider also that the eyes, throat, and groin are not only small targets they are gaurded by other parts of anatomy and not as easy to successfully connect with as it might seem. The person generally defends these areas reflexively. Bruce Lee was developing such moves and techniques but they were from the clinching range. The chances of succesfully hitting these tagets at more than arms length without putting yourself at risk are minimal.
And in a grappling situation like on the floor a person generally can't drum up enough power to do any serious damage.
In my experience the best targets are the nose, ribs, and knees. If you tag someone in the nose they will be blinded by their own tears. The ribs will knock the wind of them, and the knees once hit...well I don't have to elaborate. |
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JustJohn
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Location: Your computer screen
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| Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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The areas you mentioned are extremely easy to hit against an unskilled fighter. (Against a trained fighter I would probably go with bjj since most MA are much more effective at longer ranges) Sure you're going to have to get within arm's length, but it's a fight. That's going to happen.
(Of course, ideally perhaps it's in a wide open street and you know TKD or some other good kicking art, and you are able to keep them at long range and just abusing them with your feet without really risking anything. However, the odds are against that, and if the opponent isn't really stupid he'll get the point and rush in which case you had better land that first kick or you're back to infighting again.) |
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Ukon
Joined: 29 Jan 2008
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:09 am Post subject: |
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| JustJohn wrote: |
The areas you mentioned are extremely easy to hit against an unskilled fighter. (Against a trained fighter I would probably go with bjj since most MA are much more effective at longer ranges) Sure you're going to have to get within arm's length, but it's a fight. That's going to happen.
(Of course, ideally perhaps it's in a wide open street and you know TKD or some other good kicking art, and you are able to keep them at long range and just abusing them with your feet without really risking anything. However, the odds are against that, and if the opponent isn't really stupid he'll get the point and rush in which case you had better land that first kick or you're back to infighting again.) |
If I saw a guy kick another guy in the nads, I'd whup his ass. Many would share my sentiments..... Most fights unless your being jumped aren't "win at all costs". Just becuase breaking a beer bottle in half and stabbing your opponent is effective doesn't mean you should. |
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JustJohn
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Location: Your computer screen
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 12:29 am Post subject: |
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I said that in my previous post...
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| Now you're right, you're not going to want to straight up maim someone in a bar fight unless they pull a knife or something. However, that WOULD be the "most effective" thing to do, and again, that's what the OP asked. Plus, not all vulnerable spot strikes are maiming or killing. There are plenty that just knock the guy out or whatever, which would work nicely for less serious fights which are admittedly much more common. |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:15 am Post subject: |
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| JustJohn wrote: |
The areas you mentioned are extremely easy to hit against an unskilled fighter. (Against a trained fighter I would probably go with bjj since most MA are much more effective at longer ranges) Sure you're going to have to get within arm's length, but it's a fight. That's going to happen.
(Of course, ideally perhaps it's in a wide open street and you know TKD or some other good kicking art, and you are able to keep them at long range and just abusing them with your feet without really risking anything. However, the odds are against that, and if the opponent isn't really stupid he'll get the point and rush in which case you had better land that first kick or you're back to infighting again.) |
I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but what kind of "unskilled fighter" is going to be starting crap with you in the first place? Probably a BIG mutha #####, and as such they'll probably be able to absorb your "vicious attacks" to the sensitive parts of their anatomy. You might run into a common esl monkey who's had a few too many Hite but (contrary to frathouse lore) drunks can't fight worth a crap so minimal effort will result in you looking like a badass at the expense of said idiot. We're way too far into hypotheticals at this point. Just walk away, it works most of the time. |
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JustJohn
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Location: Your computer screen
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:34 am Post subject: |
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Agreed, just walk away.
But if you do have to fight, and I'll limit it to a bar-type scenario since that seems to be most important to you, you're STILL going to be more effective if you know the vulnerable spots.
Say some huge guy is determined to take a few shots at you. BJJ is not going to help if they guy is twice your size, and your muay thai is going to be limited basically to boxing. If you're good, that should be enough, but its probably going to take a good 20 seconds before you can land enough punches to make him give up, and that's way too long to risk getting grabbed. On the other hand if you happen to know that a correctly done ridge hand to the temple has a 100% knockout rate (big guys no more resistant than little guys) and you've been practicing that for the past several years, then you've got very good odds of being able to knock the guy out in the first .2 seconds of the fight. |
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TECO
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| xingyiman wrote: |
But boxing by itself ain't enough. Purist boxers who have no other training are suckers for takedowns and when that happens they're toast.
I'll admit that a purist BJJ groundfighting mindset is equally limited but boxers tend to lose it all when they lose their footing. A good combination would be Boxing with Muay Thai and Judo/BJJ/Sambo. |
When the Gracie's went in in the 1990s and starting winning they were doing just BJJ. They'd go and dive at the legs of their apponent and take a few shots to the head. However, when they got the striker down on the mat, it was game over!
Nowadays, you need to be able to strike and grapple.
So, that's why Muay Thai and Ju Jitsu are the two best disciplines to learn.
I'd be very interested in doing some one of those 3 month camps in bankgoko or wherever.
Finally, NO WAY! I would never underestimate a boxer with good boxing skills! But in everyone's studying BJJ these days and so you need to know how to grapple.
Most fights end up going to the ground. You need to be able to grapple. But grappling won't work if you're facing multiple opponents. In that case, get the heck out of dodge if you can because going to the ground is going to turn bad for you! |
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TECO
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:33 am Post subject: |
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The location of the fight is important.
How is a TKD guy going to fight in a stairwell? |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| TECO wrote: |
The location of the fight is important.
How is a TKD guy going to fight in a stairwell? |
A stairwell is too problematic. You're talking close quarters fighting and nothing else. However lots of walls at close quarters to bang your opponent into. I would say that Muay Thai clinching would be good in this situation as it limits the opponents ability to do takedowns. I would lock the guy up in a clinch and then ram him against the wall and go to work with my knees. Again this is hypotical. If the fight went to the stairs then its anyone's guess. In that sitution maybe the Moy Fah form of Shaolin kung fu would be useful where they practiced footwrk and technique on raised posts at varying elevations . But unless you go to China, shave your head, and become a monk don't figure on finding that readily available anywhere else. Thats pretty impractical any way you look at it. |
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Greekfreak
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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I studied Wing Chun (or Tsun) for a short while about 15 years ago and was amazed at how effective it was for speed training vis-a-vis boxing.
My sifu at that time had been studying it, Xing Yi, and Tai Chi for over 20 years, and destroyed a Muy Thai master in about 20 seconds. But the argument over what's best is really academic--use what works, and discard the rest. |
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TECO
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:12 am Post subject: |
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| Greekfreak wrote: |
| I studied Wing Chun (or Tsun) for a short while about 15 years ago and was amazed at how effective it was for speed training vis-a-vis boxing. |
Those guys are awesome!
Yeah, that'd be perfect for a fight in confined spaces like a stairwell.
But more likely than not, the TKD guy doing round house kicks on the street would need to back up to get his kicks out and end up tripping over the curb or a garbage can. |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| TECO wrote: |
| Greekfreak wrote: |
| I studied Wing Chun (or Tsun) for a short while about 15 years ago and was amazed at how effective it was for speed training vis-a-vis boxing. |
Those guys are awesome!
Yeah, that'd be perfect for a fight in confined spaces like a stairwell.
But more likely than not, the TKD guy doing round house kicks on the street would need to back up to get his kicks out and end up tripping over the curb or a garbage can. |
Most of the guys wo are worth their salt in TKD know well that the multiple rabbity kicks to the head that you see in tourneys aren't gonna cut it on the street. They'll more than likely try to attack your legs with low kicks. A guy who has trained in TKD for many years will be able to adapt his fighting style to suit the situation. That said, is TKD the way I would go if I were a newbie looking to study a martial art for more immediate self defense purposes? Certainly not. |
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xingyiman
Joined: 12 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:03 am Post subject: |
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| Greekfreak wrote: |
I studied Wing Chun (or Tsun) for a short while about 15 years ago and was amazed at how effective it was for speed training vis-a-vis boxing.
My sifu at that time had been studying it, Xing Yi, and Tai Chi for over 20 years, and destroyed a Muy Thai master in about 20 seconds. But the argument over what's best is really academic--use what works, and discard the rest. |
I agree that a good xingyi/taichi master with 20 years of training would be able to effectively wipe the floor with a comparable thai boxer. But the original purpose of this thread was the question of what martial art would be best (or most practcal) for use in fighting. If you were a HS kid who was getting your azz stomped all year by jocks at the school what would you rather study three months of Muay Thai or three months of Tai Chi? Like it or not there's just lots of westerners who "don't get" Martial arts like Xingyi, Ba Gua, Taichi and thus you end up wth lots of sucking martial arts schools back west that are offering little more than the Tae Bo place just down the street. |
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