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mises
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Location: retired
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 Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 7:58 am Post subject: |
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You mean on the truther thread? Yes. Thrashing. Oh yes.
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| but this question is an embarassment to human decency. |
Ignatius Reilly was Jewish?
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| What ethnic arrogance. |
What?
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| You are a clown and a charlatan |
Etc.
Into the substance:
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| Is there any other scenario, anywhere in the world, under any circumstance, in which the only way to ascertain guilt is with the full admission of the murderer? What ethnic arrogance. |
Of course, I didn't argue this. A good part of your "thrashings" on any subject (invariably some wild eyed conspiracy) involves putting words in the mouths of others, no doubt rehashing debates you long ago lost but can't let go.
If all this Swedish journo has is speculation from Palestinians, then that isn't good enough. There is no scenario, anywhere in the world, under any circumstance, in which an appropriate way to ascertain guilt is solely speculation.
If it is the case, as big bird argued, that Israel has done this in the past (including to Jews) then that adds some weight to the speculation that the specific case that the Swedish journo is discussing is true, but it is not sufficient. From this there are several ways in which the case can be made much stronger. The most easy would be an admission of guilt. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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The interesting thing about this thread is that there is not a single pro-Israel poster here who has been affected in the slightest by the admission that there was, in fact, organized organ harvesting. Every single one of them just goes on their merry way, altering slightly their rhetoric to accommodate Israel's action without wholly condemning it; continuing with their accusations of anti-semitism without seeming to notice how totally inappropriate that is at this point.
If there was a bona-fide, all inclusive, unambiguous admission from the government, would that change anyone's views here on Israel in the slightest? The answer is an unequivocal no. They would simply find a way to apologize for Israel, undoubtedly portraying them as somehow the victim, victim, victim.
The world is soon to enter a very, very dark era over Israel. Moral decisions are going to be difficult to make. I hope normal people are going to be able to discern who the bad guys are and who the good guys are, because there are going to be some very large grey areas, and the grey areas are going to grow larger. Israel is not a country that works in black and white. They gravitate to grey. This will continue. |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:50 pm Post subject: |
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(Over heard in a Tel Aviv hospital ward recently):
Patient: Doctor, if I don't get a liver transplant, I have only got a week to live! Have you found a liver donor yet?
Doctor: No, I'm sorry. We have only got those three Palestinian terrorists lieing in the morgue. One of them matches your blood type perfectly, but of course we could never use him.
Patient: Why?!?
Doctor: Well, we have not located the terrorists family. As you know, Israel is a moral light unto the world and as such we could never do anything as horrid, illegal, and immoral as to take a liver out of a terrorists body to save the life of a dieing Israeli citizen. It would ruin our code of honor, integrity, truth, and moral righteousness.
Patient: You are right doctor (sniff, sniff) Well, I guess I will have to die.
Doctor: Yes, I am afraid so, but you may die in peace knowing that we have not desecrated the body of a terrorist in order to save you.
Patient: Yes, I can die in comfort, knowing that. Thank god that I am dieing in purity and moral righteousness. Thank you, oh, thank you doctor, for not desecrating the sanctity of the terrorist's body on my humble behalf! |
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thecount
Joined: 10 Nov 2009
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:14 am Post subject: |
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I ask for Trevor to say if he thinks the Goldstone report was biased or not.
He doesn't respond.
I ask for proof of his claim (he made an off-hand statement on the topic...once) that he later considered his "core" argument. He doesn't provide it.
Can you really profess to be on the side of facts when you cannot even face those you present as your own, Trevor? |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:16 am Post subject: |
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Here's an interesting fact: Israel's population is among the lowest in the civilized world for organ donors -- it seems that no one in Israel is willing to sign an organ donor card  however (as we have seen recently) when they need an organ they will go to tremendous lengths to get them -- including blood libel.
Here's the solution: give organ priority to those who carry an organ donor card. Otherwise, Israelis won't do it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8416443.stm |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
| The Goldstone is an exquisitely even-handed document written by the most impartial person imaginable, that goes to incredible lengths to be fair and accurate. Geraldo Rivera wasn't there. Only the Palestinians and the Israelis. |
Not only that, but Goldstone is himself a Zionist, and according to this daughter his participation softened the report to make it less condemning of the IDF if you can contemplate that.  |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:49 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
| endo wrote: |
I love how Gopher defends a horrendous practice by attempting to change the argument.
Taking a page out of AIPAC, eh Gopger. |
Oh, come now. Do you actually believe that mere routine, mundane harvesting if human organs of war and murder casualties can compare with the grotesque horror of the possible misuse of a word?  |
Gopher: when American peace activist Rachel Corrie was bulldozed and killed in the Palestinian territories by an Israeli soldier, I am sure you were aghast at the verb "bulldoze," weren't you? |
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daniel-andersson
Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Location: Seoul (but from Sweden)
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| Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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Hi!
Since I'm Swedish I can tell some more facts about this article. It was published long time ago and it had some ridiculous consequences.
I havn't read the article myself but basically, the newspaper (Aftonbladet) like to make headlines like this and the guy in this the article was misquoted. There are not much facts behind the article.
Anyway, the goverment of Israel got really angry about the article and wanted the Swedish goverment to officially condemn the article. However the Swedish ambassador and Goverment said that they were not willing to give an official statement about any newspaper articles. So as a consequence of this Israel has started to restrict the VISAs given to any Swedish journalists who are about to go to Israel... |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:06 am Post subject: |
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Have you kept up with the story, Daniel? Israel has since admitted to organ harvesting. It did in fact happen. Here's a recent news story.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/21/israeli-pathologists-harvested-organs
Is Israel still withholding visas from Swedish journalists?
| daniel-andersson wrote: |
Hi!
Since I'm Swedish I can tell some more facts about this article. It was published long time ago and it had some ridiculous consequences.
I havn't read the article myself but basically, the newspaper (Aftonbladet) like to make headlines like this and the guy in this the article was misquoted. There are not much facts behind the article.
Anyway, the goverment of Israel got really angry about the article and wanted the Swedish goverment to officially condemn the article. However the Swedish ambassador and Goverment said that they were not willing to give an official statement about any newspaper articles. So as a consequence of this Israel has started to restrict the VISAs given to any Swedish journalists who are about to go to Israel... |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2009 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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bolding mine
From your own article link. This admission "followed a furious row prompted by a Swedish newspaper reporting that Israel was killing Palestinians in order to use their organs"
There is a big difference between harvesting organs from a corpse and going out and deliberately killing people in order to harvest organs.
The second one is what Israel has denied and still denies. However certain posters seem hell-bent on using the first one as proof of the second one. Never mind that the journalist admitted that he didn't check those particular facts and has no proof that the Israeli army actually went out in roving death squads to find Palestinians. Dead Israelis had their organs harvested too...did the Israeli military just walk into their own civilians' homes and start killing? |
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daniel-andersson
Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Location: Seoul (but from Sweden)
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 12:03 am Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
| Is Israel still withholding visas from Swedish journalists |
Nope, I guess I'm not totally up to date. Anyway that newspaper recently published an article with a (fake) picture of JFK claiming that he was on a boat full of naked girls with a headline like "The picture that would had change the history". I don't trust much of what they write...
Regarding the journalists Visas, they never withheld the visas. They just made the process longer to obtain one and there were no longer any clear rules if you could get one or not. For example one change was that you had to send in one of your recent article together with the visa application. It was a long time ago, 6 months, but I think it's more complicated to get a visa now than before.
P.S; As for the "JFK" picture, you can see it here.
http://www.allinfo.se/nyheter/index.asp?i=104545 |
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wesharris
Joined: 10 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
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| i'm pretty sure that 'harvest' is the standard verb used in these cases. |
Yes, it is. We have a situation here where a government was stealing organs from the dead. I have to say, I don't see how a complaint about very basic and correct usage of the term "to harvest" is anything less than an attempt to distract from the actual topic at hand. |
Those that are dead, owe no Soul, but also own nothing . |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 7:07 pm Post subject: |
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| daniel-andersson wrote: |
| Trevor wrote: |
| Is Israel still withholding visas from Swedish journalists |
Nope, I guess I'm not totally up to date. Anyway that newspaper recently published an article with a (fake) picture of JFK claiming that he was on a boat full of naked girls with a headline like "The picture that would had change the history". I don't trust much of what they write...
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So basically it's a tabloid on roughly the same level as the National Enquirer and people are attaching weight and credibility to it? |
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Trevor
Joined: 16 Nov 2005
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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Urbanmyth, it's not like you had any credibility in the first place, but we have already ascertained what has been admitted. The nature of the publication is at this point moot.
Here is a story about the hearings going on in the Knesset regarding the issue.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/12/2009122315425789179.html
Oooohhh! That story is from Al Jazeera! Not a zionist approved news source! Well, never mind. We'll have to wait for Ruptert Murdoch to say something before it is relevant 
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| daniel-andersson wrote: |
| Trevor wrote: |
| Is Israel still withholding visas from Swedish journalists |
Nope, I guess I'm not totally up to date. Anyway that newspaper recently published an article with a (fake) picture of JFK claiming that he was on a boat full of naked girls with a headline like "The picture that would had change the history". I don't trust much of what they write...
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So basically it's a tabloid on roughly the same level as the National Enquirer and people are attaching weight and credibility to it? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2009 10:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Trevor wrote: |
Urbanmyth, it's not like you had any credibility in the first place
Coming from you, that's irony at its finest.
, but we have already ascertained what has been admitted. The nature of the publication is at this point moot. |
Yes we have already ascertained what has been admitted, namely that Israel ten years ago was harvesting organs from dead Palestinians and Israelis.
The publication on the other hand made a completely different allegation charging that the Israeli military was deliberately searching for and killing Palestinians for their organs.
If you can not see the difference between the two, then perhaps you should be quiet and leave the sermonizing to those who do. What's the next topic on this? "Dog-faced boy claims he was experimented on by Israeli scientists in the womb?" |
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