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zdrav
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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 Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:42 am Post subject: |
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| Stout wrote: |
This shows how much u really know about the situation. The guys in charge of shaping the sound, image and marketing Girls Generation and G-Dragon aren't short-sighted ajeossis who grew up in the 50's and 60's.
As for the enlightened "youngbloods" who "won't be satisfied churning out cheap pop music", I'm sad to inform u (u must not have gotten the memo)
that this generation has been the one which has been in love with and trumpeting the merits of said "cheap and replaceable pop"!
U don't write bad, son (which uni did u go to  ), unfortunately your logic and lack of grounding in reality leaves something to be desired. |
Who do you think runs the big agencies and sets the agenda for all those songwriters and image makers? Who do you think runs the government cultural agencies? Certainly not 20-somethings. They're run by people like Lee Soo Man, the founder and head honcho of SM.
You can't claim that K-pop is oppressively top-down but then act as if the musical and image craftsmen in the industry have much initiative or choice in what kind of music is presented.
Of course the young people have been appreciative of K-pop, and I outlined the exact reasons why in a previous post (so I won't do it again). But just because they like it now doesn't mean that current K-pop is the ONLY thing they'll ever like, or that they will never get tired of it.
My main point is that eventually they'll demand something more. Either the fans will get tired of the music, or the industry will find it necessary to change because of its unsustainable business model. |
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Stout
Joined: 28 May 2011
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| zdrav wrote: |
| Stout wrote: |
This shows how much u really know about the situation. The guys in charge of shaping the sound, image and marketing Girls Generation and G-Dragon aren't short-sighted ajeossis who grew up in the 50's and 60's.
As for the enlightened "youngbloods" who "won't be satisfied churning out cheap pop music", I'm sad to inform u (u must not have gotten the memo)
that this generation has been the one which has been in love with and trumpeting the merits of said "cheap and replaceable pop"!
U don't write bad, son (which uni did u go to ), unfortunately your logic and lack of grounding in reality leaves something to be desired. |
Who do you think runs the big agencies and sets the agenda for all those songwriters and image makers? Who do you think runs the government cultural agencies? Certainly not 20-somethings. They're run by people like Lee Soo Man, the founder and head honcho of SM.
You can't claim that K-pop is oppressively top-down but then act as if the musical and image craftsmen in the industry have much initiative or choice in what kind of music is presented.
Of course the young people have been appreciative of K-pop, and I outlined the exact reasons why in a previous post (so I won't do it again). But just because they like it now doesn't mean that current K-pop is the ONLY thing they'll ever like, or that they will never get tired of it.
My main point is that eventually they'll demand something more. Either the fans will get tired of the music, or the industry will find it necessary to change because of its unsustainable business model. |
Okay, let's take it back, on account u didn't get it the first time-
@zdrav:
I think the main changes will happen once there's a generational shift.
Take a look back at K-pop music in the 80's. It looks and sounds a bit different from now...because there already has been a generational shift  Imagine that? Time marches on and a new generation takes its place. So guess what? The next generation will bring a new style of music. The industry will continue to adapt, as it always has. And unless there's a major revolution in the educational/socialization system/Confucian ethics and business model of this country, we're looking at more cleverly copied music from young producers/style staff hired by fat toad execs. And the next generation will think it's wonderful, too, because it's on TV, everyone's cheering, it's played on loudspeakers all over town, and all the clubs and cafes where people hang out can't get enough of it either. It's called social programming, it eliminates and deadens the need for more refinded individual aesthetic appreciation, and it ain't going anywhere soon, because this is how certain people keep their grip on power. |
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jfromtheway
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:57 am Post subject: |
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Just to be clear, Zdrav, Disbell, and the other K-pop enthusiasts, are Korean-American females, or 22-24 year old western females, right? Otherwise, this is unacceptable. Twelve year old kids and 35 year old adults shouldn't be listening to the same music, unless the twelve year old kid is their own child. It's just not right.
If these people are men, you should be ashamed of yourselves. If I sent one of these links of 6KL@ME Girls, or whoever, to any of my male friends at home or in Korea saying "check out this new song," it would be a laugh fest. But maybe I'm not immersed enough, or completely brainwashed, yet. My ears are usually pretty reliable, this stuff is high school aged little girl music.
I also saw the the wonder girls a month or so ago walking around Hongdae on a weekday evening. There was a massive crowd, but my friend and I just wanted to check out how hot they were. As we we were trying to get a good look into the crowd circle, half the camera men started pointing their cameras at us, before the queens had a bite to eat at the place to the left of the spam dog stand. My friend also used to own a bar in Vietnam, and told me a funny story about how they brought a K pop group in there a few years ago for some media thing, and paid a bunch of Vietnamese girls, who had no idea who they were, just to attend and pretend to be excited. Ministry of Culture in action. |
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everything-is-everything
Joined: 06 Jun 2011
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 1:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ust to be clear, Zdrav, Disbell, and the other K-pop enthusiasts, are Korean-American females, or 22-24 year old western females, right? Otherwise, this is unacceptable. Twelve year old kids and 35 year old adults shouldn't be listening to the same music, unless the twelve year old kid is their own child. It's just not right. |
First off I agree the whole "Korean Wave" crap is overblown and that the odds of 2NE1 making it in America are about as good as me hooking up with one of the members of 2NE1.
That being said....
I love how people rag on Koreans for being conformist and then say stuff like this- "Only certain people should listen to certain kinds of music."
But I supposed it would be okay if those 12 and 35 year olds were listening to your favorite bands, right?
Look, I'm sorry, but some of you people take your music way way way too seriously (I know, I know, this from a guy who called the Beatles overrated). If it sounds good and you like it, listen to it. If someone likes pop music good for them. That doesn't make them a worse person, that doesn't make them stupid.
I have met smart good people who listen to pop and I've met dumb bad people who listen to "good" music. The belief that whatever music you listen to makes you a better person is the belief of a nincompoop.
And sorry, your crappy hipster band that makes my ears bleed isn't any better. |
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bekinseki
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Stout wrote: |
| zdrav wrote: |
| Stout wrote: |
| zdrav wrote: |
IMHO, this is all a necessary evolutionary stage. Koreans are not stupid, and it's not as if they have no clue what constitutes good music and need rockist Westerners to come and teach them. The popularity of "I Am A Singer" has been largely fueled by idol fatigue among Koreans. The boy band JYJ, formerly of the ultimate K-pop group TVXQ, dared to break away from the serfdom of the K-pop world and seem to be managing to hold their own despite a near-media blackout in Korea. Companies like YG are pushing their trainees to take more ownership of their own creative output. Korea's biggest solo pop star right now is IU, who plays guitar decently, has a good voice, and writes some of her own songs. Granted, her biggest hits are cutesy dance numbers, but she's not just an empty image.
I say that K-pop, in its current state, is a necessary evolutionary stage because it gives Koreans a collective confidence that yes, there are many people in the world who will take interest in pop culture with a Korean face and a Korean identity.
Maybe white Americans take it for granted that they don't have to believe that their race and ethnicity will act as barriers, but I think Koreans have held this as common wisdom with regards to their own race and ethnicity. Korea was dirt poor half a century ago, and their cultural fame is dwarfed by those of China and Japan. Koreans naturally, and resignedly, assumed that nobody in the world would ever watch or listen to anything if it was associated with Korea.
That's why Koreans are so overly defensive or giddy about K-pop. For the first time, they don't have to feel like their ethnic identity is something to hide or downplay. Of course, there's still some lingering remnants of insecurity, such as the unnecessary plastic surgery and rampant use of unnecessary "Engrish".
But I think that eventually, the country will outgrow the K-pop phase and with new confidence in itself, produce more substantive stuff. |
There are a few encouraging developments, as you say. How deep and far-reaching they can ever become largely depends upon how much the government and big player entertainment companies will encourage elements of independent growth amongst the performers, other independent-minded labels, etc...in other words, a rather fundamental change in approach would be needed. Hopefully, they will, uh, decide to forego some of their control and portion of the pie and let it happen...although if u can grasp that the way they've been running things is part of the overall program of socialization (and just the accepted way that fat cats roll here), you may begin to see a somewhat different likelihood emerge |
I think the market is on the verge of saturation, if it's not there already. Groups like SNSD may be manufactured and largely devoid of talent, but they did trail a fairly unique path for themselves. Nowadays, you have multiple copycat groups trying to follow the same path as SNSD (like Girls' Day or A Pink), and people just aren't interested anymore. If new pop stars want to make a name for themselves, they're going to have to try different approaches. Hopefully, that'll lead to some image diversity and higher appreciation for musical talent in the K-pop industry.
I think the main changes will happen once there's a generational shift. Right now, most of the people in power are Koreans who came of age when Korea was still mainly a Third World country. I think that puts a certain limit on their understanding and scope of ambition. Koreans that were born in the 1980s and later, however, have never known Korea when it was a military dictatorship with a lower standard of living than the Communist North. I don't think this generation has the soft bigotry of low expectations that their elders do, and these youngbloods won't be satisfied if their country is seen as only good for churning out cheap and easily replaceable pop music. |
This shows how much u really know about the situation. The guys in charge of shaping the sound, image and marketing Girls Generation and G-Dragon aren't short-sighted ajeossis who grew up in the 50's and 60's.
As for the enlightened "youngbloods" who "won't be satisfied churning out cheap pop music", I'm sad to inform u (u must not have gotten the memo)
that this generation has been the one which has been in love with and trumpeting the merits of said "cheap and replaceable pop"!
U don't write bad, son (which uni did u go to ), unfortunately your logic and lack of grounding in reality leaves something to be desired. |
You're right that the companies are being managed by relatively young people. However, they're releasing popular music at the mercy of those short-sighted ajeosshis. |
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nukeday
Joined: 13 May 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Look, the guy said he loved the Spice Girls back in the day...
I don't take musical cues from Spice Girls fans. |
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DIsbell
Joined: 15 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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My one positive comment in this thread is that Secret look pretty damn good makes me a Kpop enthusiast? I've been kinda bashing kpop as musically void, negative for female body image, and currently having no chance of becoming a real international sensation- it only has a small niche.
Sorry for knowing the names of some groups. I use subway signage/video for study and maybe once a month or end up watching some pop show with my girlfriend's family. |
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jfromtheway
Joined: 20 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Hah, you again, huh. I can picture you bowling alone in your cheap suit, listening to this little girl music on your ipod. Too funny. And you patronize people who you feel don��t act as adults should, in dress, behavior, etc; all while jamming out to music popularized by undeveloped korean girls who aren��t even old enough to drive. You have to be joking. Do you still listen to Raffi as well? |
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zdrav
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Stout wrote: |
Okay, let's take it back, on account u didn't get it the first time-
@zdrav:
I think the main changes will happen once there's a generational shift.
Take a look back at K-pop music in the 80's. It looks and sounds a bit different from now...because there already has been a generational shift Imagine that? Time marches on and a new generation takes its place. So guess what? The next generation will bring a new style of music. The industry will continue to adapt, as it always has. And unless there's a major revolution in the educational/socialization system/Confucian ethics and business model of this country, we're looking at more cleverly copied music from young producers/style staff hired by fat toad execs. And the next generation will think it's wonderful, too, because it's on TV, everyone's cheering, it's played on loudspeakers all over town, and all the clubs and cafes where people hang out can't get enough of it either. It's called social programming, it eliminates and deadens the need for more refinded individual aesthetic appreciation, and it ain't going anywhere soon, because this is how certain people keep their grip on power. |
Korea was a very different place in the 1980s. It was barely a democracy, if even that, and was still a developing country. This was the era when Hyundai was synonymous with being a lemon factory. Suffice to say that the K-pop back then wasn't nearly as well-packaged as the K-pop now.
The appeal of K-pop right now is that it looks well-produced enough to be on American MTV (something that obviously wasn't true in the 1980s or even 1990s). At a certain point, this will become old news and there will have to be a change.
Koreans like bad pop music because of Confucianism? Err, ok... How do you explain the popularity of High School Musical in the United States (or teen pop or hair metal or the Monkees before all that)? The Spice Girls in the UK? All those cheesy pop stars in Germany and other parts of Europe? Eurovision, for God's sake? Surely not Confucianism there as well.
I find it strange that you attribute Korean youth's propensity to like silly music (just like every other young person around the industrialized world) as an oddity that can be chalked up to those Koreans and their wacky Confucianism. |
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wallythewhale
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, it's cool.
With Love,
Snoop Dogg, Dr. Dre, Black Eye Peas
EDIT: And for the record, I'm pretty sure most of you don't know, but a lot of US producers are coming to Korea to produce MVs for a lot of these hotties. Search: Teddy Riley. Connect the dots. |
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The Floating World
Joined: 01 Oct 2011
Location: Here
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 10:57 pm Post subject: |
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| My main point is that eventually they'll demand something more. Either the fans will get tired of the music, or the industry will find it necessary to change because of its unsustainable business model. |
Haven't been in Korea long eh?
They'll like whatever comes out and they'll like it more because it's Korean than for any musical creativity. |
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zdrav
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| The Floating World wrote: |
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| My main point is that eventually they'll demand something more. Either the fans will get tired of the music, or the industry will find it necessary to change because of its unsustainable business model. |
Haven't been in Korea long eh?
They'll like whatever comes out and they'll like it more because it's Korean than for any musical creativity. |
Using that logic, there would be no failed acts in K-pop, nor would there be any risk involved. |
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bekinseki
Joined: 31 Aug 2011
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:19 am Post subject: |
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| zdrav wrote: |
| The Floating World wrote: |
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| My main point is that eventually they'll demand something more. Either the fans will get tired of the music, or the industry will find it necessary to change because of its unsustainable business model. |
Haven't been in Korea long eh?
They'll like whatever comes out and they'll like it more because it's Korean than for any musical creativity. |
Using that logic, there would be no failed acts in K-pop, nor would there be any risk involved. |
Using that logic, D-Wars would have been a popular movie here. |
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zdrav
Joined: 08 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:27 am Post subject: |
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| bekinseki wrote: |
| zdrav wrote: |
| The Floating World wrote: |
| Quote: |
| My main point is that eventually they'll demand something more. Either the fans will get tired of the music, or the industry will find it necessary to change because of its unsustainable business model. |
Haven't been in Korea long eh?
They'll like whatever comes out and they'll like it more because it's Korean than for any musical creativity. |
Using that logic, there would be no failed acts in K-pop, nor would there be any risk involved. |
Using that logic, D-Wars would have been a popular movie here. |
Shim Hyung Rae is now bankrupt and in a bit of trouble with creditors. His last movie, "The Last Godfather", was a failure.
There's no doubt that there's a mindless nationalist consumer base out there, but it won't last forever. This sentiment was borne mainly out of the Korean belief that unless there was complete solidarity, Korean cinema/music/TV couldn't survive. It's a kind of pop culture protectionism, and it is somewhat necessary in the nascent stages of pop culture development.
Eventually, it won't be good enough just to be Korean. |
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