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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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 Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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The map on page is an ESTIMATED amount from 2005. (pretty much the same time period as the one I cited.
As for page 15 which talks about the patterns of drinking scores Korea is only slightly ahead of North America.
In page 16 which talks about Heavy Episode Drinking there is no data for Korea but North America is in the third highest risk category.
As for page 27 I'm not sure what alcohol related deaths have to do with alcoholic consumption...presumably since they are dead they aren't consuming any more alcohol.
As a final point pretty much all this information is sourced from 2005 (or earlier) and is clearly noted as being either estimated or averaged over a number of years
Whereas mine states clearly
| Quote: |
| Table 3: Total recorded alcohol per capita consumption (15+), in litres of pure alcohol |
(bolding mine)
Mine's recorded...yours' mostly estimated.
As for per capita consumption your own link states on page 4
| Quote: |
A large variation exists in adult per capita consumption (Figure 1). The highest consumption
levels can be found in the developed world, mostly the Northern Hemisphere, but also
in Argentina, Australia and New Zealand |
(bolding mine)
Last edited by TheUrbanMyth on Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:01 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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soomin
Joined: 18 Jun 2009
Location: Daegu
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:59 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
Except no one said that. No one has defended breaking anything. At all. Anywhere. |
How about here?
| jfromtheway wrote: |
This "situation" is overblown. "Westerners partying western style = disrespecting Korea and degrading the highly regarded Korean ESL industry." I know many on here lobby for higher standards, but it immediately turns into a farce that fumes into a generational accusatory excuse for some of the older posters on here. The collective 'we' and 'they' nonsense is just that, as well. The people who actually care about how we/they are perceived by Koreans outside of our/their workplace are usually unperceptive morons conforming to a mold that is usually based on general mindlessness, or phantom infused, Korean adopted insecurities.
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Or here?
| coralreefer_1 wrote: |
| Personally, I am glad those foreigners had a good time. Maybe they caused some issue with the local population, but after 8 years here I can come to feel that it really doesn't matter how good or bad a foreigner may act. |
I don't know how you still can't wrap your head around the concepts of responsibility and behaving as a decent human being...
| northway wrote: |
| What people are objecting to is the view (which you previously supported) that we should be extra well-behaved because our behavior reflects poorly on other foreigners. |
As I said before, I am me. My actions reflect back on me. My actions reflect back on my family for raising me and my friends for being with me. My actions reflect on my world beliefs as they are what have taught me. My actions reflect on my life as an expat, and are a window into my culture and background. I'm not retracting any of these statements, despite what you think.
Maybe you haven't been around many Koreans outside of work, or maybe you just act in a way that they feel suits a foreigner. I, personally, am tired of people judging me by the loud, obnoxious, party-hard foreign population. Normal, hardworking, responsible people don't make a scene and aren't in the news, but people like the ones in this article are. Why should people be surprised by my having table manners, by my being polite, or by my not going out drinking every night? I want to show people my best side whenever I see them and having a blank slate would be great. Unfortunately, the vocal and destructive minority takes that from the rest of us, from me and from you and from everyone to come. By acting well (or just decently), we can reverse the negative stereotypes one day... but people like this will always hold us back.
There's really nothing more to be said on this... have fun talking about who has the higher alcohol consumption rate and foreigner pride, everyone~ I'm out. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
The map on page is an ESTIMATED amount from 2005. (pretty much the same time period as the one I cited.
As for page 15 which talks about the patterns of drinking scores Korea is only slightly ahead of North America.
In page 16 which talks about Heavy Episode Drinking there is no data for Korea but North America is in the third highest risk category.
As for page 27 I'm not sure what alcohol related deaths have to do with alcoholic consumption...presumably since they are dead they aren't consuming any more alcohol.
As a final point pretty much all this information is sourced from 2005 (or earlier) and is clearly noted as being either estimated or averaged over a number of years
Whereas mine states clearly
| Quote: |
| Table 3: Total recorded alcohol per capita consumption (15+), in litres of pure alcohol |
(bolding mine)
Mine's recorded...yours' mostly estimated.
As for per capita consumption your own link states on page 4
| Quote: |
A large variation exists in adult per capita consumption (Figure 1). The highest consumption
levels can be found in the developed world, mostly the Northern Hemisphere, but also
in Argentina, Australia and New Zealand |
(bolding mine) |
The estimates are based on recorded amounts, so I fail to see the issue. In any case, using the WHO's alcohol country profiles (which utilize recorded data):
1) Korea is at 19.89 liters per person.
2) The US is at 14.43 liters per person.
3) Canada is at 12.59 liters per person.
http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/global_alcohol_report/profiles/en/index.html#C
Also, I'm not sure if you read the methodology, but only using recorded alcohol use misses a lot, particularly in Korea where a lot of people make their own alcohol.
Anyway, I can't believe that anyone could claim with any degree of intellectual honesty that there alcohol consumption in Korea is no different from that in the States and Canada. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:16 pm Post subject: |
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| soomin wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
Except no one said that. No one has defended breaking anything. At all. Anywhere. |
How about here?
| jfromtheway wrote: |
This "situation" is overblown. "Westerners partying western style = disrespecting Korea and degrading the highly regarded Korean ESL industry." I know many on here lobby for higher standards, but it immediately turns into a farce that fumes into a generational accusatory excuse for some of the older posters on here. The collective 'we' and 'they' nonsense is just that, as well. The people who actually care about how we/they are perceived by Koreans outside of our/their workplace are usually unperceptive morons conforming to a mold that is usually based on general mindlessness, or phantom infused, Korean adopted insecurities.
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Or here?
| coralreefer_1 wrote: |
| Personally, I am glad those foreigners had a good time. Maybe they caused some issue with the local population, but after 8 years here I can come to feel that it really doesn't matter how good or bad a foreigner may act. |
I don't know how you still can't wrap your head around the concepts of responsibility and behaving as a decent human being...
| northway wrote: |
| What people are objecting to is the view (which you previously supported) that we should be extra well-behaved because our behavior reflects poorly on other foreigners. |
As I said before, I am me. My actions reflect back on me. My actions reflect back on my family for raising me and my friends for being with me. My actions reflect on my world beliefs as they are what have taught me. My actions reflect on my life as an expat, and are a window into my culture and background. I'm not retracting any of these statements, despite what you think.
Maybe you haven't been around many Koreans outside of work, or maybe you just act in a way that they feel suits a foreigner. I, personally, am tired of people judging me by the loud, obnoxious, party-hard foreign population. Normal, hardworking, responsible people don't make a scene and aren't in the news, but people like the ones in this article are. Why should people be surprised by my having table manners, by my being polite, or by my not going out drinking every night? I want to show people my best side whenever I see them and having a blank slate would be great. Unfortunately, the vocal and destructive minority takes that from the rest of us, from me and from you and from everyone to come. By acting well (or just decently), we can reverse the negative stereotypes one day... but people like this will always hold us back.
There's really nothing more to be said on this... have fun talking about who has the higher alcohol consumption rate and foreigner pride, everyone~ I'm out. |
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slothrop
Joined: 03 Feb 2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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edit
Last edited by slothrop on Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:43 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: Drunk and stupid: Debauched foreigners & Koreans |
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| In the revelrous corner of Western culture, if you can vomit over someone, have a fight, have a one-night stand, spend the night in a police cell, pick up an injury by doing something dangerous, offend a vulnerable minority, and/or lose control of your bowels or bladder, it has been a successful night and you will be rewarded for it with the fame and popularity your story of the evening will bring. |
Indeed. That's a very United States thing. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:24 pm Post subject: |
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| soomin wrote: |
| Maybe you haven't been around many Koreans outside of work, or maybe you just act in a way that they feel suits a foreigner. I, personally, am tired of people judging me by the loud, obnoxious, party-hard foreign population. Normal, hardworking, responsible people don't make a scene and aren't in the news, but people like the ones in this article are. Why should people be surprised by my having table manners, by my being polite, or by my not going out drinking every night? I want to show people my best side whenever I see them and having a blank slate would be great. Unfortunately, the vocal and destructive minority takes that from the rest of us, from me and from you and from everyone to come. By acting well (or just decently), we can reverse the negative stereotypes one day... but people like this will always hold us back. |
Two years with Korean roommates, a high school that was 10% Korean, and two years in a relationship with a Korean girl. Yeah, try again.
Do you think that maybe, just maybe, the reason those Koreans are surprised by your actions isn't because they have seen foreigners behave inappropriately, but instead that they have a negative image of us stemming from an over-reliance on a sensationalist media that routinely demonizes foreigners? I've hung out with a lot of Koreans who have literally never had a conversation with a foreigner before; of course they're surprised by my chopsticks use and proper pouring technique. For Koreans who have never spent any time around foreigners, everything is a bit of a surprise. |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:37 pm Post subject: Re: Drunk and stupid: Debauched foreigners & Koreans |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| Quote: |
| In the revelrous corner of Western culture, if you can vomit over someone, have a fight, have a one-night stand, spend the night in a police cell, pick up an injury by doing something dangerous, offend a vulnerable minority, and/or lose control of your bowels or bladder, it has been a successful night and you will be rewarded for it with the fame and popularity your story of the evening will bring. |
Indeed. That's a very United States thing. |
That's frowned upon where I come from. Perhaps the one night stand not so much, but the rest is certainly not going to make you popular, unless you hang out with the Jersey Shore crowd. |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
Anyway, I can't believe that anyone could claim with any degree of intellectual honesty that there alcohol consumption in Korea is no different from that in the States and Canada. |
I NEVER said, claimed or implied anything of the sort. I stated that the WHO study claimed that the States and Canada had a higher per capita rate
What was that you were saying about honesty? |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| soomin wrote: |
| I don't think anyone is saying that Koreans don't drink or that there aren't drunks in Korea. I also don't think that anyone is saying that drinking is bad. But when you can't control yourself and are out-of-control and damaging private property and such, that's a problem. Do you all act like that at home? If my friends came over to my house and started breaking lamps and puking everywhere, I'd be pretty angry. When drunks do this on public property, then they are ruining all our homes. I saw people get carted off to jail for doing that kind of thing in the States, but instead of saying "yes, that's bad, they should know their alcohol limits and act responsibly" lots of you are saying "it's just Western-style" and following that up with, "why do Koreans think Westerners are drunks?" This thread is way too ridiculous |
Who is saying this is just 'Western style'? The idea that it is acceptable, or desirable as you said earlier, in Western countries for people to vomit, pee themselves, start fights, etc, is absolutely absurd. Yes, many young people do it and, like other dumb things, it is applauded by their equally dumb friends. But it's hardly 'normal', 'accepted' or 'approved of', especially once you get older. I'm not saying Korea is a country full of drunks or that Koreans are dangerous or out of control. But drinking to the point of pathetic drunkenness is much more accepted here than in any Western country. What other country asks foreign job applicants "How much can you drink?" during an initial interview? Where else will you step over dozens of vomit puddles every single morning of the week in every neighbourhood? Where else are employees forced to go out and drink nightly with their employer? I don't read too much news here, but I have read about many men who have gotten away with rape because the judge deemed them too drunk to stop themselves. That hasn't been an excuse in a North American courtroom in decades.
Again, I'm not trying to paint all Koreans as alcoholic maniacs. But to pretend that drinking is as accepted and normalized in Western countries as it is here is ridiculous. I don't care if you find stats that say Americans drink more per capita, because that doesn't reflect the binge drinking we're talking about (Canada has more guns per capita than the US, but a fraction of the gun crimes). I'm not even criticizing Korean culture over this, but it is hypocritical to say foreigners drink too much while the country is awash in soju and beer 24/7.
I think you're using this incident as an excuse to 'prove' a point rather than actually looking at what happened. |
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northway
Joined: 05 Jul 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
Anyway, I can't believe that anyone could claim with any degree of intellectual honesty that there alcohol consumption in Korea is no different from that in the States and Canada. |
I NEVER said, claimed or implied anything of the sort. I stated that the WHO study claimed that the States and Canada had a higher per capita rate
What was that you were saying about honesty? |
I don't even know how to respond to this. When you put that much effort into defending outdated statistics and attempting to undermine the more recent report, it certainly implies that you agree with those statistics. You asked for the statistics to back it up, I provided them, then you proceeded to attack those statistics. I didn't really see there being much of an argument here, as the WHO is the most reliable source you're going to find on the subject, unless you think they're engaged in some vendetta against Korea. By attacking the WHO's more recent numbers you really are implying that you think there is something wrong with them. |
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KimchiNinja
Joined: 01 May 2012
Location: Gangnam
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:59 pm Post subject: Re: Drunk and stupid: Debauched foreigners & Koreans |
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| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| Quote: |
| In the revelrous corner of Western culture, if you can vomit over someone, have a fight, have a one-night stand, spend the night in a police cell, pick up an injury by doing something dangerous, offend a vulnerable minority, and/or lose control of your bowels or bladder, it has been a successful night and you will be rewarded for it with the fame and popularity your story of the evening will bring. |
Indeed. That's a very United States thing. |
That's frowned upon where I come from. Perhaps the one night stand not so much, but the rest is certainly not going to make you popular, unless you hang out with the Jersey Shore crowd. |
A lot of it is the media perhaps. There's always some new American movie about having this "great" party where you destroy your parents house, barf over everyone, wake up in jail, and how that's so awesome.
And life imitates art.
So you've got Koreans who see this behavior portrayed in film, and then they see real people acting it out in Itaewon, so yeah you'd conclude it's "a Western thing", and I'd say they are right.
Can we just dub it "it's cool to be an ignorant rude idiot" cultural phenomenon. See the film "Idiocracy" or "God Bless America". |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:11 pm Post subject: Re: Drunk and stupid: Debauched foreigners & Koreans |
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| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| NYC_Gal 2.0 wrote: |
| KimchiNinja wrote: |
| Quote: |
| In the revelrous corner of Western culture, if you can vomit over someone, have a fight, have a one-night stand, spend the night in a police cell, pick up an injury by doing something dangerous, offend a vulnerable minority, and/or lose control of your bowels or bladder, it has been a successful night and you will be rewarded for it with the fame and popularity your story of the evening will bring. |
Indeed. That's a very United States thing. |
That's frowned upon where I come from. Perhaps the one night stand not so much, but the rest is certainly not going to make you popular, unless you hang out with the Jersey Shore crowd. |
A lot of it is the media perhaps. There's always some new American movie about having this "great" party where you destroy your parents house, barf over everyone, wake up in jail, and how that's so awesome.
And life imitates art.
So you've got Koreans who see this behavior portrayed in film, and then they see real people acting it out in Itaewon, so yeah you'd conclude it's "a Western thing", and I'd say they are right.
Can we just dub it "it's cool to be an ignorant rude idiot" cultural phenomenon. See the film "Idiocracy" or "God Bless America". |
I can't say that I am familiar with either one of those movies. So, you watched those or whatever other art influencing life films that repulse you? |
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NYC_Gal 2.0
Joined: 10 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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I've seen Idiocracy. I think you missed the point of the movie.
As for what people see in the movies, it's far from the norm. Should we base our views of Koreans on Old Boy? |
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TheUrbanMyth
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Location: Retired
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| Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 12:24 am Post subject: |
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| northway wrote: |
| TheUrbanMyth wrote: |
| northway wrote: |
Anyway, I can't believe that anyone could claim with any degree of intellectual honesty that there alcohol consumption in Korea is no different from that in the States and Canada. |
I NEVER said, claimed or implied anything of the sort. I stated that the WHO study claimed that the States and Canada had a higher per capita rate
What was that you were saying about honesty? |
I don't even know how to respond to this. When you put that much effort into defending outdated statistics and attempting to undermine the more recent report, it certainly implies that you agree with those statistics... . |
I suggest you read your report that you linked to again. The information it contains has data from 2001-2005. The report that I linked has data from 2003-2004. A lot of your data is more outdated then mine, yet you accuse ME of defending outdated statistics...?
As for agreeing with the statistics no...I'm just looking at the problems with the methodology and data collection of your report. Basically most projections there are an estimate.
Now there's nothing wrong with estimations if that's all we have to go on. But that is not the case here. We have verifiable RECORDED statistics to go by...that being the case I'd rather go with that then estimations.
Anyway this whole debate started because you claimed that binge drinking is a bigger problem here then in the West. As of yet no stats have been provided that back up this particular assertation...at least for Korea. From page 16 of your report (Heavy Episode Drinking). There is no information available for Korea while North America is in the third highest category.
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