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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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 Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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We say that Korean work culture, in general, is inefficient. They have been trying desperately to show us that it's productive. I don't see anyone here claiming that Korea isn't productive. No one has said Korea hasn't achieved great things or can't have strong businesses. We're saying the way they do it is inefficient, and therefore deserves no sympathy in the way of 'hard work'.
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I think you are onto something here, however I would temper that with the word "competitive", as productivity with crippling inefficiency would mean that Korean companies would not be competitive.
Now, they can overcome a small to perhaps moderate degree of inefficiency by being MORE productive. But there are obviously diminishing returns to be had. However it is highly doubtful that they are "comically" inefficient.
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She watched a video, had tea, took a nap, made calls and texted. Then she came in on a holiday to finish up. In the end, we both produced the same results, but the time it took each of us to gain those results was vastly different.
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We both agree that the person isn't "working", even though she is on the clock. From a business standpoint she is being inefficient. However, from a personal standpoint, is she? If she is spending the same amount of time in leisure either finishing by 5, or working till 7 and relaxing through the day, then does either way "make sense" for her?
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| Most here are talking efficiency, which was the point of the OP. SR and UM are talking productivity. |
No, we were. We're just saying that the inefficiency is not of comic ineptitude proportions, and that the data doesn't bear out the caricature of soju swilling, desk sleepin, work till 10 Korean workers.
I also mentioned that if indeed Koreans were basically slacking off for 7+ hours a day and then somehow doing all their significant work in the last 3, then those last 3 hours per day are some pretty efficient work. The worker may be efficient, perhaps the organizer is not.
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| What, a page of angry outrage over the definition of 'work day'? How dare you say 10 hours! It's 9.89765 hours! |
No, some people were claiming its in the range of a 13 hour work day (9-10) when the data suggests its more like a 9+
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| UM denies cold hard stats about Korean efficiency by talking about Samsung. |
Again, I introduced COLD HARD stats that showed Korean employees work on average 45~50 hours a week. These were rejected in favor of personal experience of salarymen out till 10 and then getting bombed till 2 AM and doing this day in and day out.
Why aren't you attacking the posters who are ignoring the data? Oh right, because the data doesn't support your conclusions.
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| Restaurants do the majority of their business between 6-8pm. Whereas in the rest of Korea I would say say 8-11pm, with a decent amount still going until 12-1am. |
Go around and take a look at the operating hours of major restaurants, not just some Kimbap joint or random bbq joint. Also look at their location. Obviously certain neighborhoods are going to cater to a late night clientele, however MANY more areas do not and often close at 9.
Also the clientele at 10PM tends to be young people and those older people you see out are often already on round 2 or 3.
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| And from when I've been in Seoul I'm always amazed how busy shopping areas are at well after 10pm. |
Usually those shoppers are aged 19-30. Some may work, and there are some older people mingled in, but they are not the salaryman demographic.
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But the evening is different. It's more spread out. You don't get that same rush you see in the mornings at 5:30pm. You see a bit at 5:00, 6:00, 7:00, 8:00 and then it tapers off from 9 and so on.
If everyone was working these set hours as TUM and SR seem to be saying, the evening rush hour would be just as congested as the mornings. |
That's not what we said. We said the data supports most people finishing up at 5, 6, or 7. NOT 9 or 10 as has been suggested.
Also there is one other flaw- Most people do not meet for leisure between 6 and 9 AM. However MANY people meet for leisure between 6 and 9 PM. Therefore, things ARE going to be more spread out.
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| 10 is very different than 5 or 6. |
5 or 6 is when they are having peak business. 10 is when they CLOSE.
If salary men are getting out at 9-10, then peak business times for restaurants would be between 9-11PM. They are clearly not.
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| It sure isn't 930PM-11PM either. If it was, they'd be open. |
Sorry I meant to say that if 930-11PM was their peak business time, they'd be open till 12, probably 1. But that is likely for their shopping, not their grocery. Highly unlikely EMart is doing much in the way of seafood sales at 11PM.
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| If you have a good handle on salary man life, you'd know these answers. |
No, you're wrong. People who drink, just drink. Take it from a drinker, you don't go "oh its Thursday, now I can get BOMBED".
Monday- Wanna drink?
Tuesday- Work sucks, wanna drink?
Wednesday- Company dinner, let's drink.
Thursday- Wanna drink? Wife will be in town Friday night.
Friday- Week's over, screw the wife, wanna drink?
Saturday- Honey, wanna drink?
Sunday- Maybe I should lay off the drink... |
Unless you work for some type of consulting business that regularly surveys restaurants and retail outlets, you are just pulling numbers out of your you know what and expecting everyone to accept them, which since you have a hardon for exaggerating exaggerated exaggerations no one is going to do.
So either tell us where you're getting your numbers or admit you're just making them up. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:25 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
Unless you work for some type of consulting business that regularly surveys restaurants and retail outlets, you are just pulling numbers out of your you know what and expecting everyone to accept them, which since you have a hardon for exaggerating exaggerated exaggerations no one is going to do.
So either tell us where you're getting your numbers or admit you're just making them up. |
Why is it only me you are addressing that statement to? Why not the posters on the "other side" who are doing the exact same thing? |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Unless you work for some type of consulting business that regularly surveys restaurants and retail outlets, you are just pulling numbers out of your you know what and expecting everyone to accept them, which since you have a hardon for exaggerating exaggerated exaggerations no one is going to do.
So either tell us where you're getting your numbers or admit you're just making them up. |
Why is it only me you are addressing that statement to? Why not the posters on the "other side" who are doing the exact same thing? |
Because they're clear that they are speaking from experience while you state your experiences as facts (along with obviously exaggerating those facts). They, in this case the Captain, post in a much more credible manner.
They're not fabricating statistics, as you obviously are.
And as someone who has worked at several Korean chaebols, their experience jibes with mine. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Unless you work for some type of consulting business that regularly surveys restaurants and retail outlets, you are just pulling numbers out of your you know what and expecting everyone to accept them, which since you have a hardon for exaggerating exaggerated exaggerations no one is going to do.
So either tell us where you're getting your numbers or admit you're just making them up. |
Why is it only me you are addressing that statement to? Why not the posters on the "other side" who are doing the exact same thing? |
Because they're clear that they are speaking from experience while you state your experiences as facts (along with obviously exaggerating those facts). They, in this case the Captain, post in a much more credible manner.
They're not fabricating statistics, as you obviously are.
And as someone who has worked at several Korean chaebols, their experience jibes with mine. |
Actually we are the ones who pasted data and published statistics, from the same sources that showed Koreans to be relatively inefficient.
Sorry, you can't cherry pick the stats like that.
The experience I have through friends I've known for 10+ years from Korea says that yes, they have those "burn the midnight oil" nights, probably more frequently than back home, but many days they leave at 6-7PM, NOT 10PM.
Others seem to be saying that leaving at 10PM is the norm for the majority of workers, and behavior patterns and infrastructure simply don't bear that out. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Well, people tend to take negative comments by Koreans against foreigners personally.
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Probably because they're foreigners in Korea.
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| ...showed Koreans to be relatively inefficient. |
Oh, so you finally admit that Koreans are inefficient. Thank you.
/thread |
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Bondrock
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Location: ^_^
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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I don't work at a Korean company. But all my wife's family does, and the few Korean friends I have do. And I have lived here for over 15 years steady and been involved in the culture for much much longer and I will say Captain Corea is basically right on almost all points and Steelrails is full of it.
Really Steelrails? you think Wallmart and Emart only opened a part of their store 10 years ago for 24 hours? As if they would close off the grocery part? Ridonclulous!
SR, in most of your long winded essays you are just yakking about stuff you know not about. I normally skip 99% of what you write and I suspect most Davizens also skip past your posts. Strawmen and minutae arguments.
Go CC! |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Had a class at one of Koreans largest logistics companies. Thought I'd have a quick Q&A on this topic.
What are you work hours?
-8:30-5:30 (note: 9 hours)
So, you usually go home at 5:30?
-(total laughter from all 10 present) No. We usually leave between 7 and 8. Unless there's something important going on, then we stay until 10 or so.
So you never go home at 5:30?
-No, we can if we have everything finished, and we tell the boss we have some family function we have to do. Usually once or twice a month.
So, they often stay for 10-11+ hour days, but put in more if things are busy - and anyone who's worked in a Korean company knows that things are often "very busy". I wish I could have recorded the laughter for SR to hear it. Seriously, the concept of them leaving on time on a regular basis was foreign to them.
I've worked in more companies here than I'm willing to admit. But I will admit that I've never worked in Emart here, or Mini-stop, or a beer hoff, or a vegetable market - so I really have no idea as to their hours. But I know salarymen quite well (women too), and my students' answers today very much sync with those I've received and observed in the past.
I'm not going to bother picking apart SR's ludicrous posts, and this point, it's obvious he doesn't know what he's talking about. TUM, I fear you're relying too much on newspapers and gov reports - I suggest you actually talk to salarymen in Seoul to find out what it's like here. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
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| Let me enlighten you - about 10 years ago Walmart and EMart were open for 24 hours. The gov shut it down to protect small shops. They WANTED to stay open. |
Well, likely the clothing and merchandise sections. However, the grocery sections were probably not open. |
Sorry, but I'm quoting this for posterity's sake. This is one of the funniest things I've read on here this month. /cheers |
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IlIlNine
Joined: 15 Jun 2005
Location: Gunpo, Gyonggi, SoKo
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:38 am Post subject: |
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| Captain Corea wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
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| Let me enlighten you - about 10 years ago Walmart and EMart were open for 24 hours. The gov shut it down to protect small shops. They WANTED to stay open. |
Well, likely the clothing and merchandise sections. However, the grocery sections were probably not open. |
Sorry, but I'm quoting this for posterity's sake. This is one of the funniest things I've read on here this month. /cheers |
I remember quite a few drunken shopping sessions at Walmart here at 2am 10 or so years ago. Unfortunately my memory is too foggy to remember shopping in the grocery section... It was usually booze, snacks, more booze... sometimes mixers... I digress
Also, there are some folks here who actually do work full time at companies - why not a first hand source? It's 6:35pm and I'm done.
I think the only reason SR is so over-the-top defensive is that quite a few here are all-too-happy to poo on everything Korean without a second thought. |
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byrddogs
Joined: 19 Jun 2009
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:54 am Post subject: |
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| Bondrock wrote: |
I don't work at a Korean company. But all my wife's family does, and the few Korean friends I have do. And I have lived here for over 15 years steady and been involved in the culture for much much longer and I will say Captain Corea is basically right on almost all points and Steelrails is full of it.
Really Steelrails? you think Wallmart and Emart only opened a part of their store 10 years ago for 24 hours? As if they would close off the grocery part? Ridonclulous!
SR, in most of your long winded essays you are just yakking about stuff you know not about. I normally skip 99% of what you write and I suspect most Davizens also skip past your posts. Strawmen and minutae arguments.
Go CC! |
Yeah, this for real. I've made it known long ago that when I saw the sock puppet (since changed) avatar that my interest waned considerably in the thread.
The guy is a goal post changing windbag. The other dude that lives out in the sticks; well let's just see he is special. |
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Jodami
Joined: 08 Feb 2013
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:15 am Post subject: |
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I think it's plain to see that SR is totally full of hot air and has been well and truly put in his place again.
Not sure why he's so defensively delusional.
Being a gyopo, isn't a valid enough reason ime. |
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atwood
Joined: 26 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:58 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| atwood wrote: |
Unless you work for some type of consulting business that regularly surveys restaurants and retail outlets, you are just pulling numbers out of your you know what and expecting everyone to accept them, which since you have a hardon for exaggerating exaggerated exaggerations no one is going to do.
So either tell us where you're getting your numbers or admit you're just making them up. |
Why is it only me you are addressing that statement to? Why not the posters on the "other side" who are doing the exact same thing? |
Because they're clear that they are speaking from experience while you state your experiences as facts (along with obviously exaggerating those facts). They, in this case the Captain, post in a much more credible manner.
They're not fabricating statistics, as you obviously are.
And as someone who has worked at several Korean chaebols, their experience jibes with mine. |
Actually we are the ones who pasted data and published statistics, from the same sources that showed Koreans to be relatively inefficient.
Sorry, you can't cherry pick the stats like that.
The experience I have through friends I've known for 10+ years from Korea says that yes, they have those "burn the midnight oil" nights, probably more frequently than back home, but many days they leave at 6-7PM, NOT 10PM.
Others seem to be saying that leaving at 10PM is the norm for the majority of workers, and behavior patterns and infrastructure simply don't bear that out. |
You're the one cherry picking. My response had nothing to do with statistics about how many hours Koreans worked that "we"posted. (And who is this we you keep referring to?) I was and am calling into questions the statistics you posted regarding dining, shopping and transit habits. Either tell "us" where you're getting your numbers or admit that you're just making them up off the top of your head.
As for your experience, you don't even know when E-Mart closes. Explain that, explain where your shopping and dining statistics come from and then maybe your experience will be considered. But as of now, how could anyone take anything you post on this topic with more than a grain of salt? |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| Mr. BlackCat wrote: |
I think Patrick of all people (GO HABS GO!) made a good point, basically bringing up a word that should have been brought up pages ago.
Productivity.
Most of us have been talking about efficiency, but UM and SR are talking about productivity. We say that Korean work culture, in general, is inefficient. They have been trying desperately to show us that it's productive. I don't see anyone here claiming that Korea isn't productive. No one has said Korea hasn't achieved great things or can't have strong businesses. We're saying the way they do it is inefficient, and therefore deserves no sympathy in the way of 'hard work'. Here's a real life example:
My CT and I both had tests to mark. I actually had more, but for this purpose let's say we had the same. I wrote down all the correct answers and had them on one little paper for easy access. She continued to flip through each sheet to see the answers on every individual question. I put on earphones, buckled down and went for it for 1.5 hours and was done by the end of the day. She watched a video, had tea, took a nap, made calls and texted. Then she came in on a holiday to finish up. In the end, we both produced the same results, but the time it took each of us to gain those results was vastly different.
The moral, and what most of us are trying to say, is: Korean workers and companies can and do produce similar, even sometimes better, results as American workers and companies. The difference is the time and effort it took to get those results. So, when I hear my CT, or in this case various Korean workers in the article, complain about long hours or coming in holidays I have no sympathy. There is no reason for it from my perspective. And I suspect my CT has no sympathy for me when I'm rushing at 4:30pm trying to get everything done. Why not just come in on the holiday and finish it? Because, to her, I'm lazy and won't come in on Friday.
So, to sum up: Most here are talking efficiency, which was the point of the OP. SR and UM are talking productivity. |
Great post. The debate has split and some people are arguing completely different things, thus this cannot end. |
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Mr. BlackCat
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Location: Insert witty remark HERE
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| Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:20 am Post subject: |
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| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Great post. . |
It's not about admitting you're wrong or right. It's about realizing you're either saying the same thing differently or are just mere degrees off of the same point. |
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Bondrock
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Location: ^_^
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| Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| Janny wrote: |
Mr. BlackCat, you must have some extra time to kill and some whiskey to swill.
You should know by now that having a logical debate with SR is a frustrating, aggravating experience. I think it's especially troubling because SR often DOES make some points that could be true in a sense, but he does not often take the nuance or context of the entire issue into effect. So it's a maddening case of you trying to make him understand and him coming back at you with small tidbits of info, picking apart paragraphs line by line and completely missing the big picture.
Other times, his big picture is just flat-out WRONG.
Anyway, kudos for your persistence. I found this thread entertaining. ...because I like pain lol.
Also, Patrick's "mr. nice guy" responses drive me up the wall too. He pulled the same thing when I we had an argument a long time ago here. 'Killing me with kindness' routine that comes off as condescending and ungenuine. ("I wish you luck and happiness!" after a huge debate and some negative feelings stirred) I can't decide if he's subtly sociopathic or just a big nerd.
With regards to the OP: I see lots of wasted desk time here in Shanghai too. But there is a much better understanding of deadlines and time efficiency...ie. knowing how much time a task should take and not handing it onto someone at the last minute BS and expecting miracles. Much more respect for people's personal time in general. |
I love your posts Janny...
my responses to Patrick were based on a bit of soju and i almost never drink, so chalk it up to bad judgement on my part... |
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