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Hogwons = racist, ageist and sexist
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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 Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| wooden nickels wrote: |
| For some systems it is more economical to hire new staff. It's sometimes even more economical for schools that are doing well to hire new foreign teachers. |
So where do values come in?
Your logic (that everything is about the bottom line) leads, once again, to a society filled with ageism, racism, and sexism.
| Quote: |
I presume I am in for a rude awakening as I explore teaching English overseas.
It is particularly disheartening to read the E2 visa info for Korea....hmm, discouraging people age 55-60 from applying due to ageism and, I would guess, concern that people in that age group and older might drop dead in front of a classroom from some previously-undiagnosed malady? |
Korea runs on stereotypes, and these stereotypes are never challenged. it is a country where perceptions, misperceptions and image trump facts at every turn.
The stereotype they have of age is that it is a time of decline, that younger workers are always better. They are not aware, presumably, of scientific and congressional studies that show older workers to be more productive than their younger colleagues, that Education-analytical capabilities peak in your 50's, that older workers are more reliable and less volatile, have great psychological advantages and tend to work smarter.
Too often schools are obsessed with image and will try to re-energize by getting rid of all their age and experience. It comes back to bite them in ways they will probably never realize- until the boss promulgating the age discrimination inevitably becomes a victim of it himself.. and in Korea he won't have long to wait. |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:20 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| wooden nickels wrote: |
| For some systems it is more economical to hire new staff. It's sometimes even more economical for schools that are doing well to hire new foreign teachers. |
So where do values come in?
Your logic (that everything is about the bottom line) leads, once again, to a society filled with ageism, racism, and sexism.
| Quote: |
I presume I am in for a rude awakening as I explore teaching English overseas.
It is particularly disheartening to read the E2 visa info for Korea....hmm, discouraging people age 55-60 from applying due to ageism and, I would guess, concern that people in that age group and older might drop dead in front of a classroom from some previously-undiagnosed malady? |
Korea runs on stereotypes, and these stereotypes are never challenged. it is a country where perceptions, misperceptions and image trump facts at every turn.
The stereotype they have of age is that it is a time of decline, that younger workers are always better. They are not aware, presumably, of scientific and congressional studies that show older workers to be more productive than their younger colleagues, that Education-analytical capabilities peak in your 50's, that older workers are more reliable and less volatile, have great psychological advantages and tend to work smarter.
Too often schools are obsessed with image and will try to re-energize by getting rid of all their age and experience. It comes back to bite them in ways they will probably never realize- until the boss promulgating the age discrimination inevitably becomes a victim of it himself.. and in Korea he won't have long to wait. |
That's not where my logic leads to. Stop making things up and claiming it's my logic. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| wooden nickels wrote: |
That's not where my logic leads to. Stop making things up and claiming it's my logic. |
Yes it is....
You said that schools must do whatever is most economical, including getting rid of experienced/skilled teachers and replacing them with complete newbies so they can pay them less.
And before you run off to edit/change your post, here is what you said (on page 7 of this thread):
| Quote: |
Let's just say the school has 5 foreign teachers. It has the option of hiring 5 new foreign teachers at the same 2.2 pay rate or it can give it's current 5 teachers a pay raise to 2.4 for the upcoming new contract. Figure that's an extra .2 for each teacher at the end of the year for severance, a little extra for insurance, etc. An extra 8 million won to pay the foreign teaching staff isn't small change...
For some systems it is more economical to hire new staff. It's sometimes even more economical for schools that are doing well to hire new foreign teachers. |
So your logic not only results in ageism, it also results in a poorer quality of education. |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:57 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| wooden nickels wrote: |
That's not where my logic leads to. Stop making things up and claiming it's my logic. |
Yes it is....
You said that schools must do whatever is most economical, including getting rid of experienced/skilled teachers and replacing them with complete newbies so they can pay them less.
And before you run off to edit/change your post, here is what you said (on page 7 of this thread):
| Quote: |
Let's just say the school has 5 foreign teachers. It has the option of hiring 5 new foreign teachers at the same 2.2 pay rate or it can give it's current 5 teachers a pay raise to 2.4 for the upcoming new contract. Figure that's an extra .2 for each teacher at the end of the year for severance, a little extra for insurance, etc. An extra 8 million won to pay the foreign teaching staff isn't small change...
For some systems it is more economical to hire new staff. It's sometimes even more economical for schools that are doing well to hire new foreign teachers. |
So your logic not only results in ageism, it also results in a poorer quality of education. |
The 5 new teachers may have more experience and skill than the present teachers. New teachers doesn't always mean they are younger than the present teachers. |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 3:59 am Post subject: |
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| On the other hand, some young new teachers may bring better things to the school than a bunch of old experienced teachers who have been doing the same wrong things over, and over, and over……… |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:05 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| wooden nickels wrote: |
That's not where my logic leads to. Stop making things up and claiming it's my logic. |
Yes it is....
You said that schools must do whatever is most economical, including getting rid of experienced/skilled teachers and replacing them with complete newbies so they can pay them less.
And before you run off to edit/change your post, here is what you said (on page 7 of this thread):
| Quote: |
Let's just say the school has 5 foreign teachers. It has the option of hiring 5 new foreign teachers at the same 2.2 pay rate or it can give it's current 5 teachers a pay raise to 2.4 for the upcoming new contract. Figure that's an extra .2 for each teacher at the end of the year for severance, a little extra for insurance, etc. An extra 8 million won to pay the foreign teaching staff isn't small change...
For some systems it is more economical to hire new staff. It's sometimes even more economical for schools that are doing well to hire new foreign teachers. |
So your logic not only results in ageism, it also results in a poorer quality of education. |
Claiming I'm going to run off and edit or change a post is simply a ploy of weakness on your part. Creating things out of thin air that isn't happening. Next, you will be name calling. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:00 am Post subject: |
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| wooden nickels wrote: |
| The 5 new teachers may have more experience and skill than the present teachers. |
If you're going to consistently "reward" proven and experienced teachers by not renewing them- to save yourself a dime, then its hardly likely your policy is going to result in increasingly more skilled applicants.
| Quote: |
| Claiming I'm going to run off and edit or change a post is simply a ploy of weakness on your part. |
That's what you did last time...
Did you just call me weak? Any more veiled insults and I'll have to bring in the mods.
| Quote: |
| New teachers doesn't always mean they are younger than the present teachers. |
Most likely it does though, given your stated unwillingness to pay extra for skills or experience.
Congratulations, your unethical mentality is exactly the sort of thinking that results in a workforce riven with ageism, racism and sexism. |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| wooden nickels wrote: |
| The 5 new teachers may have more experience and skill than the present teachers. |
If you're going to consistently "reward" proven and experienced teachers by not renewing them- to save yourself a dime, then its hardly likely your policy is going to result in increasingly more skilled applicants.
| Quote: |
| Claiming I'm going to run off and edit or change a post is simply a ploy of weakness on your part. |
That's what you did last time...
Did you just call me weak? Any more veiled insults and I'll have to bring in the mods.
| Quote: |
| New teachers doesn't always mean they are younger than the present teachers. |
Most likely it does though, given your stated unwillingness to pay extra for skills or experience.
Congratulations, your unethical mentality is exactly the sort of thinking that results in a workforce riven with ageism, racism and sexism. |
The youngest teacher over the last 7 years at my school has been in the mid 30s. Presently, all but 1 has a Masters Degree. It's been years since anybody at my place has made less than 3.0 in a month. The newest teacher here has been here 2.5 years.
What kind of people do you have employed at the school you own? |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:52 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| wooden nickels wrote: |
| The 5 new teachers may have more experience and skill than the present teachers. |
If you're going to consistently "reward" proven and experienced teachers by not renewing them- to save yourself a dime, then its hardly likely your policy is going to result in increasingly more skilled applicants.
| Quote: |
| Claiming I'm going to run off and edit or change a post is simply a ploy of weakness on your part. |
That's what you did last time...
Did you just call me weak? Any more veiled insults and I'll have to bring in the mods.
| Quote: |
| New teachers doesn't always mean they are younger than the present teachers. |
Most likely it does though, given your stated unwillingness to pay extra for skills or experience.
Congratulations, your unethical mentality is exactly the sort of thinking that results in a workforce riven with ageism, racism and sexism. |
False accusations about my post. More threats towards me. |
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tophatcat
Joined: 09 Aug 2006
Location: under the hat
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| wooden nickels wrote: |
| The 5 new teachers may have more experience and skill than the present teachers. |
If you're going to consistently "reward" proven and experienced teachers by not renewing them- to save yourself a dime, then its hardly likely your policy is going to result in increasingly more skilled applicants.
| Quote: |
| Claiming I'm going to run off and edit or change a post is simply a ploy of weakness on your part. |
That's what you did last time...
Did you just call me weak? Any more veiled insults and I'll have to bring in the mods.
| Quote: |
| New teachers doesn't always mean they are younger than the present teachers. |
Most likely it does though, given your stated unwillingness to pay extra for skills or experience.
Congratulations, your unethical mentality is exactly the sort of thinking that results in a workforce riven with ageism, racism and sexism. |
I have been following this thread. You are distorting what nickels is saying. Trying staying on the subject matter. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Tophatcat wrote: |
| You are distorting what nickels is saying. |
I don't think so. although you're probably one of his socks.
| WoodenNickels wrote: |
| More threats towards me. |
What threats? Be careful about imagining things.
| earthquakez wrote: |
| wooden nickels wrote: |
90% of job applicants bring roughly the same qualifications to the table.
If you were hiring who would you choose? The young hottie with sparkly eyes and a degree in English? The old tub of lard with crow's feet under her eyes and a degree in English?
I know what you are thinking. You would hire the other 10%. Well, the other 10% are being hired. It may be because the hogwons can't get a lineup of super models but there are people with experience being sought out and hired.
As much as we don't like to admit it, looks are important to us. If a man has a choice he will generally choose a sexy average biscuit cooking gf/wife over a homely blue ribbon biscuit cooking gf/wife. Will a 20 year old woman choose the handsome chiseled chin driving instructor for driving lessons or will she choose the double chin, beer belly driving instructor?
I would prefer to hire the more qualified. All else being equal, and not knowing either applicant, I would hire the better looking applicant. |
From posts like this I'd say there's not only a problem with superficial Korean ajosshis who prioritise image over qualifications and somebody who seems to have more character through how they have responded to experiences.
A waygugin ajosshi like wooden nickels is the kind of school owner I'd warn decent females looking for a job in Korea away from. His examples are just stereotypes - from tubs of lard women to beer bellied driving instructors. Hmm, wonder what wooden nickels looks like.
If I were a school owner who was a foreigner I would think that the sparkly young female might potentially be one of those young teachers who has to be walked through everything. Just like the teachers the best Korean boss I ever worked for got through recruiters until he found out what racist rubbish they were telling black people who wanted a job with him.
My old boss had nice looking, young female North Americans for a while among other employees. But as he said 'Most of them can't plan a lesson, can't think on their feet, can't teach from the text and develop a lesson from it, can't cope with usual noise and classroom behaviour from students without being too tough or too easy, and want to take time off or come in late some days because they think the vacation is too short.'
As a 30 something, tall, blonde haired, nicely dressing Brit male I would have no problem hiring an overweight foreign woman who had a lot of personality, real teaching skills and real experience as well as character. You can sus out people's character from what they've done on their cv and/or how they deal with questions.
I'd say those kind of women would beat wooden nickels hands down as teachers it's just that they didn't marry a Korean and therefore can get a visa to own their own school and making hiring decisions. |
Yep. |
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Chaparrastique
Joined: 01 Jan 2014
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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But to get back to the issues...:
| SoulSistah wrote: |
It is particularly disheartening to read the E2 visa info for Korea....hmm, discouraging people age 55-60 from applying due to ageism and, I would guess, concern that people in that age group and older might drop dead in front of a classroom from some previously-undiagnosed malady? |
Korea runs on stereotypes, and these stereotypes are never challenged. it is a country where perceptions, misperceptions and image trump facts at every turn.
The stereotype they have of age is that it is a time of decline, that younger workers are always better. They are not aware, presumably, of scientific and congressional studies that show older workers to be more productive than their younger colleagues, that Education-analytical capabilities peak in your 50's, that older workers are more reliable and less volatile, have great psychological advantages and tend to work smarter.
Too often schools are obsessed with image and will try to re-energize by getting rid of all their age and experience. It comes back to bite them in ways they will probably never realize- until the boss promulgating the age discrimination inevitably becomes a victim of it himself.. and in Korea he won't have long to wait.
| Soulsistah wrote: |
| I presume I am in for a rude awakening as I explore teaching English overseas. |
How did you get on? |
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trueblue
Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| obsessed with image |
And, Korea is the only place that buys into that?
I still say, if women truly want equal treatment, there would be no consequences when a man bitch slaps one. If women truly wanted equal opportunity, they (American women at least...disgusting creatures) would demand that they be forced to register with the Selective Service.
I don't see that happening. Demanding equal opportunity and still hiding behind double standards is quite comfortable for them.
In fact, American women are ONE of the reasons of the downfall of America....but that is another topic.
All in all, Korea has its social order. If you don't like it....you know what to do. |
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wooden nickels
Joined: 23 May 2010
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Chaparrastique wrote: |
| Tophatcat wrote: |
| You are distorting what nickels is saying. |
I don't think so. although you're probably one of his socks.
| WoodenNickels wrote: |
| More threats towards me. |
What threats? Be careful about imagining things.
| earthquakez wrote: |
| wooden nickels wrote: |
90% of job applicants bring roughly the same qualifications to the table.
If you were hiring who would you choose? The young hottie with sparkly eyes and a degree in English? The old tub of lard with crow's feet under her eyes and a degree in English?
I know what you are thinking. You would hire the other 10%. Well, the other 10% are being hired. It may be because the hogwons can't get a lineup of super models but there are people with experience being sought out and hired.
As much as we don't like to admit it, looks are important to us. If a man has a choice he will generally choose a sexy average biscuit cooking gf/wife over a homely blue ribbon biscuit cooking gf/wife. Will a 20 year old woman choose the handsome chiseled chin driving instructor for driving lessons or will she choose the double chin, beer belly driving instructor?
I would prefer to hire the more qualified. All else being equal, and not knowing either applicant, I would hire the better looking applicant. |
From posts like this I'd say there's not only a problem with superficial Korean ajosshis who prioritise image over qualifications and somebody who seems to have more character through how they have responded to experiences.
A waygugin ajosshi like wooden nickels is the kind of school owner I'd warn decent females looking for a job in Korea away from. His examples are just stereotypes - from tubs of lard women to beer bellied driving instructors. Hmm, wonder what wooden nickels looks like.
If I were a school owner who was a foreigner I would think that the sparkly young female might potentially be one of those young teachers who has to be walked through everything. Just like the teachers the best Korean boss I ever worked for got through recruiters until he found out what racist rubbish they were telling black people who wanted a job with him.
My old boss had nice looking, young female North Americans for a while among other employees. But as he said 'Most of them can't plan a lesson, can't think on their feet, can't teach from the text and develop a lesson from it, can't cope with usual noise and classroom behaviour from students without being too tough or too easy, and want to take time off or come in late some days because they think the vacation is too short.'
As a 30 something, tall, blonde haired, nicely dressing Brit male I would have no problem hiring an overweight foreign woman who had a lot of personality, real teaching skills and real experience as well as character. You can sus out people's character from what they've done on their cv and/or how they deal with questions.
I'd say those kind of women would beat wooden nickels hands down as teachers it's just that they didn't marry a Korean and therefore can get a visa to own their own school and making hiring decisions. |
Yep. |
I retired from the US public school system after 20 years. I've taught university and public school outside of the US. I have a Masters in ED and Languages. I now have my own academy. I know something about teaching, hiring, and running a school. |
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trueblue
Joined: 15 Jun 2014
Location: In between the lines
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| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| I retired from the US public school system after 20 years. I've taught university and public school outside of the US. I have a Masters in ED and Languages. I now have my own academy. I know something about teaching, hiring, and running a school. |
And, more importantly, it is YOUR business and should hire as you see fit.
I do find it comforting, unlike America, there are still places in the world where one can choose whom to hire, fire and do business with, without having to worry about being sued. |
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