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i_teach_esl
Joined: 07 Sep 2006
Location: baebang, asan/cheonan
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 Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| Like otis in the other thread you've made a strawman out of people who get freaked out by the word itself. I don't see anyone doing that. What I do see is people saying that the context in which Richards used the word was extremely offensive. And as far as whether 'n*gger' is more or less offensive than anything else, like I said, the word still has strong connotations of slavery... any white person who uses the word in anger towards a black person... is saying something about what they think the correct position of black people should be. That's not the case with 'hymie' or 'cracker' or 'gook'... Richards lashed out, realised what he'd said, and tried unsuccessfully to backpedal it into some kind of social commentary about the power of words. He then realised it wasn't working, got a complete 'oh, sh*t' feeling, and left the stage... |
well said. |
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pastis
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
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| I guess I take it for granted that everyone has such negative stuff inside them. |
I'd agree but not to the same degree. I would say it's a sliding scale from very very slightly racist to completely racist rather than everyone being equally racist. |
I'm not sure you understood what I meant - I was simply suggesting that we all know about racism in the same way (some naive people aside), it's just that some people perceive their racist knowledge to be true, while others refute it (as you said, to varying degrees). I wasn't trying to say that in some way we are all active racists per se, on a "sliding scale" (though it's possible a separate argument could be made for that too).
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| we wouldn't even understand what racism means if we didn't recognize it - and to recognize it means you have the capacity to do it |
I don't follow the reasoning. I recognise what serial muder is, yet I strongly deny the assertion that I'm capable of it except in the most extremely literal interpretation of the word as a synonym for "capability". Theoretically, and only theoretically, everyone is capable of everything under the right circumstances. So let us restrict our discussion to what people actually do. |
I guess it's the labelling of people that bothers me. Someone can be labelled a "murderer", having killed someone once, but this isn't necessarily an accurate description of their state of mind in general (that murdering is "what they do" as if it's in their nature). It's possible to kill a person in the heat of a moment, regret it, and never do it again. Such labelling of people as "such and such a thing" often seems artificial to me. However, I agree such labels can and do apply, it just depends. Like if someone is attracted sexually to children, in the sense that it's a part of who they are and they can't change it, we call them paedophiles. That would be accurate. But I don't think we can just go ahead and label someone like Richards a "racist" by following the same logic (i.e. we don't know that it's a fundamental part of who he is, though it's certainly possible, and even likely). What he "did" is different from "being" a member of the KKK or something (where racism is presumably a key part of those people's identities).
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| Well we obviously see the world, or rather people, in fundamentally different ways. I believe people are "being themselves" all the time. If it comes out when you're angry, then it's in there. You're not "being someone else", and it's not someone elses racism. |
But this doesn't make sense to me either. As I mentioned, there's a difference between "doing" something and "being" something. You can vote for George Bush in a election once, and yet regret it afterwards (in other words you are not automatically a Republican overall just because of what you did). Or you can smoke pot once and not be a pothead. There are tons of things people can do, or mistakes they can make, without having to be "labelled" accordingly. The same can go for more serious crimes. As I mentioned before, you can kill someone once without inherently being "someone who kills".
Anyway, I'm not suggesting people should be able to forgo their responsibilties or anything. I think whether you make a mistake or intentionally do something wrong, you suffer the consequences. But I don't believe people can be "labelled" so simply or conveniently. People make mistakes, and people change too. It depends on the person and the situation.
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| I don't believe in the concept of "not meaning it". Everyone has negative stuff inside them. This is explained in the psycho-analytic concept of The unconscious mind. This negative stuff is repressed most of the time by the conscious mind, but don't be put off by the negative connotations of the word "repress", this is a good thing. The subconscious material comes out in more extreme circumstances, like intoxication, pressure, stress, exhaustion, etc. We all have some of this negative stuff. But we don't all have the same stuff or the same amount of stuff. |
Yes, I am aware of the idea of the unconscious mind, but I always understood the "negative stuff" to be repressed emotional and/or sexual feelings, manifesting themselves as shame or other neuroses. I don't think you can simply attribute something as complex as racist behavior to the unconscious mind. Complex philosophical/sociological ideas etc. must be formulated and understood by the conscious mind. I don't think racism is a product of the unconscious at all... Therefore I don't think it has much of anything to with racism, because by my understanding racism is not unconscious... |
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Tiberious aka Sparkles
Joined: 23 Jan 2003
Location: I'm one cool cat!
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
http://captainoftheussinevitable.ytmnsfw.com/
Seriously, this is the funniest thing you will hear all year. Trust me. You MUST listen to this. |
When the beat for "Bow Down" kicks in, that's when you know it's on. |
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diver
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| diver wrote: |
| I am not going to go into an apoplectic seizure at the sound of the word. |
And who is? |
Perhaps my expression was alittle too colorful. As I said, I agree with you on most points. I am sayng that a LOT of stuff goes uncovered in the press, and undiscussed in general. But when someone uses the word 'n*gger'...Suddenly, it seems, the press has rediscovered that there are race issues in the world. Shouldn't they be giving more attention to more serious race issues?
As I said before, even IF Richards is a racist, so what? I am not defending him, or apologizing for him...but one more ignorant white guy. That's not a surprise to me. So he's apologized. His career may even be over. He may even have deserved it. But in the end, what did it change? Is it going to change the hiring practices of businesses that systemically discrimate against minorities? Is it going to chnage things for African-Americans that get pulled over simply for 'driving while black'? Will it change the admission policies of some Calgary nightclubs? THose are issues that *I* think should be front and center, not a story about some white guy that said 'n*gger'. IMHO, the only reason it made the news is because he said 'n*gger'.
You know, watching the video again, I just realized that when Richards says 'Fifty years ago, we'd have had you upside down with a ...fork up your a*s!', he gets a pretty good laugh out of it. A joke about killing (lynching) African-Americans gets a laugh, but the word 'n*gger' makes everyone squirm.
That's all I mean about getting hung up on the word. Racist stuff goes on all the time, but if they are smart enough not to use the word, they stay off the radar. I just think that it's wrong, that's all.
And, to be honest, the lynching comment would do more to convince me that he was a racist then the use of the word 'n*gger'. To me, that comment was worse.
Like pastis, I am leaning towards him being a racist, but after one incident, I am not comfortable passing judgement. I am not saying you are wrong. I am not saying that I can't agree with you. I am saying that I can't agree with you yet. |
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diver
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Satori wrote: |
| Lets go further and look at how absurd this defense of "I was angry and didn't mean it" really is. Lets say I get extremely angry with you, and totally lose control, and start bashing your head against the floor. I end up killing you. I did not intend to kill at all. I was angry, but "I didn't mean it". |
It might be absurd to you (and you wouldn't be the only one), but it should be worth noting that the western legal system (don't really know about other places) does provide for this kind of thing. Diminished capacity, temporary insanity, the charge of manslaughter (where you killed someone but didn't mean to). I don't know if any of these apply to Richards' situation, but they do apply to the example you've just given.
Food for thought. |
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drumpounder
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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| gang ah jee wrote: |
| drumpounder wrote: |
| Words are only words, and as such cannot be offensive, or anything else. It is people who give connotations to them. |
You are a f*cking idiot.
Just words, not offensive in their own right, right? |
Ahhh...another cyber warrior. Brave in anonymity eh!! Please...tell me where you live and post a picture so I can come to see you. You will be hurt! |
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gang ah jee
Joined: 14 Jan 2003
Location: city of paper
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| Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| diver wrote: |
| Like pastis, I am leaning towards him being a racist, but after one incident, I am not comfortable passing judgement. I am not saying you are wrong. I am not saying that I can't agree with you. I am saying that I can't agree with you yet. |
Hey, I haven't even said whether I think he's a racist or not, and like you and pastis and a whole lot of other people out there I'm thinking 'quite possibly, but who knows'. I just don't agree with the 'it's just a word' argument.
| drumpounder wrote: |
| Ahhh...another cyber warrior. Brave in anonymity eh!! Please...tell me where you live and post a picture so I can come to see you. You will be hurt! |
Well, you've made my point pretty well. My picture is near the end of the 'how hawt are you' thread, and I live in Wellington. PM me for my actual address. You're that stewardess guy, right? |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think racism is a product of the unconscious at all... Therefore I don't think it has much of anything to with racism, because by my understanding racism is not unconscious... |
Your "understanding of racism" is not where your actual racism resides. See here |
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cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Jesse Jackson will interview Micheal Richards.
cbc |
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djsmnc
Joined: 20 Jan 2003
Location: Dave's ESL Cafe
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Unfortunately, the reality is that a lot of stereotypes revolt people because of how ironically true a number of them are. |
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SPINOZA
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Location: $eoul
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| djsmnc wrote: |
| Unfortunately, the reality is that a lot of stereotypes revolt people because of how ironically true a number of them are. |
Dodgy. |
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ChopChaeJoe
Joined: 05 Mar 2006
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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| djsmnc wrote: |
| Unfortunately, the reality is that a lot of stereotypes revolt people because of how ironically true a number of them are. |
Howso? Stereotypes are never true. They may be true in some, even many, instances, but by themselves, they hold no merit.
Take a stereotype such as White People Can't Dance. Is that true? 0f course not. that there are many white folks who cannot dance (myself included, tho that never stopped me from trying) exists independently from the sterotype.
Stereotypes are an easy way to sum someone up without putting any effort at all inot it. In effect, steortypes retard thinking. A simple prejudice overcomes thee will to discover the uniqueness of each person. Some people are basically rotten. Others are sublime. Membership in an ethic, racial, possibly even religious category truly says very little about the people involved.
Richards may or may not be racist. But he should have known that what he was saying was waaaaay off the chars. If h wanted to fight, he should have aken it outside and put up his dukes, not used his microphone to verbally rape someone.
I don't think that his primary objective was to push the limits of comedy, it was adrenaline and the desire to fight. He made a half-assed attempt to turn it into gonzo-comedy and it failed. There was nothing funny or thought provoking about it. Richards should be ashamed of himself. |
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Qinella
Joined: 25 Feb 2005
Location: the crib
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| Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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Richards's performance sucked. It was hard to watch. When he started yelling HE'S A NIGG3R HE'S A NIGG3R HE'S A NIGG3R HE'S A NIGG3R it was just ridiculous. Not cutting edge like Kauffman, not smart like David Cross, not cheeky like Margaret Cho.
It was about on par with a drunk redneck in a bar going on about how he's 'tard of all them wetbacks takin are jobs.'
The Letterman apology showed just how phoney and out of touch he is. 'Afro American'? And then Letterman asks what if the heckler had been white, or Caucasian, or anything else. Right, right..
Old white men, trying to get on with the new wave of multi-culturalism. All very gross, and hard to watch. |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 12:40 am Post subject: |
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| djsmnc wrote: |
| Unfortunately, the reality is that a lot of stereotypes revolt people because of how ironically true a number of them are. |
Are saying "nig-ger" is a stereotype? |
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TheFonz
Joined: 01 Dec 2005
Location: North Georgia
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