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Big_Bird
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Location: Sometimes here sometimes there...
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 Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Gopher wrote: |
| Big_Bird wrote: |
| ...despite being a rightwing capitalist roading imperialist, of course. |
Well. Thank you for noticing.
And if I ever write an autobiography, this will certainly appear as my subtitle (full credit to you). 
On the legitimate government of Lebanon and its woes, on Tel Aviv and its complications, problems, and faults, and on Damascus/Tehran/Hezbollah and their ignoring the United Nations' efforts to resolve the region's difficulties (and what I see as their very bad-faith motives in doing so and particularly my strong reservations against Tehran's acquiring nuclear weapons in such an unstable and confrontational context as this), I suggest we agree to disagree and leave it alone.
Rest assured, too, that I do fully understand your position: you stress Hezbollah and the others' human rights and the defensiveness of their actions in the face of a brutal American and Irsaeli aggressiveness. I do not stress the reverse of this, as I hope you know. I would, however, not paint Washington or Tel Aviv as "evil"; I do not believe that Israel has any terrirotial ambitions in Lebanon per se; I would not therefore characterize Hezbollah's motives as "defensive"; nor could I accept your assumption that Hezbollah acts in good faith on behalf of Lebanon; and in no way would I apologize for Iranian nuclear ambitions as "defensive," as many others do on this thread.
But, as Richard Immerman recently told the Society for the History of American Foreign Relations (because of much infighting -- far more sophisticated, of course -- over many of the same issues we see here on this board), "I will write my book; you write yours; and we will read each other," I am inclined to agree with him that d�tente may be the only real solution to these disagreements. |
I have no time to properly answer this. One thing I'd like to point out is that I do not see Washington or Tel Aviv as 'inherently evil' either, although from both those places (and many others) things we might consider evil are sometimes concocted.
Israel has actually illegally annexed Lebanon territory (the Sheeba Farms) and this is one of Hezbollah's greivances. Howver, their interest in Lebanon is (now) no longer territorial (though at some point in the past it was - according to the memoirs of some of its leaders). This does not mean the Lebanese are no longer in danger of Israeli military assaults. It's much more complicated than you imply. The 1982 invasion was not about gaining Lebanonese territory...but I have no time to discuss it for the moment.
Anyway, I've run out of time. |
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Gopher
Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| Big_Bird wrote: |
One thing I'd like to point out is that I do not see Washington or Tel Aviv as 'inherently evil' either, although from both those places (and many others) things we might consider evil are sometimes concocted.
Israel has actually illegally annexed Lebanese territory (the Sheeba Farms) and this is one of Hezbollah's greivances. However, their interest in Lebanon is (now) no longer territorial (though at some point in the past it was - according to the memoirs of some of its leaders). This does not mean the Lebanese are no longer in danger of Israeli military assaults. It's much more complicated than you imply. The 1982 invasion was not about gaining Lebanese territory...but I have no time to discuss it for the moment. |
I understand this, as I said above.
You feel that, especially in the Western press and particularly inside the United States, people hear only one side of the conflict: the Israeli side. You feel that the press gives an Israeli-weighted accounting of events and therefore further dehumanizes Arabs and Iranians and their perspectives.
In your view, you hear some of us on this board repeating this perspective. And you want to counter that by stressing the other side's view -- not to mention their humanity and human rights.
I would only suggest you might consider that you have gone not a little "native," however. In your honorable endeavor to balance the information and analyses we see and think about, you have internalized and fully accepted their worldview, a worldview that holds, for example: (a) America and Israel are, if not inherently evil, then without a doubt they remain "the aggressors" and indeed "the enemy"; (b) Hezbollah, Damascus, and Tehran only act defensively and that any instance of Tel Aviv's acting aggressively must prove that Hezbollah, Damascus, and Terhan have always only acted defensively; (c) Hezbollah does indeed speak for the Lebanese government, especially where Israeli aggression and murdering innocents is concerned; and (d) you fully accept "Hezbollah's grievances" as truth.
You have taken this worldview, then, and made it your own. (And I blame The Guardian. )
You are absolutely entitled to do this -- at least in our "free-speech" system. But please recognize that this is why I sometimes disagree with your positions. That is, I have internalized a different, American worldview.
And, as a Realist-leaning thinker, this makes perfect sense to me. Because all conflicts can be reduced to such least common denominators as this: we approach these problems with different interests, Big_Bird. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:43 am Post subject: |
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From Big_Bird's Global Research Link, bold is mine.
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| The US Congress, UN, world leaders and most Arab states remain committed to Israel overtly or tacitly. They've done it despite Israel's many violations including the crime of aggression in its ongoing brutal assaults on Lebanon and the Occupied Territories that it falsely and disingenuously claims to be a justifiable response to the capture (not kidnapping) of three of its soldiers, a minor provocation at most. |
The good news is that Hezbollah is quite discredited in Lebanon, even if it has its fans on this chatboard. |
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NAVFC
Joined: 10 May 2006
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| Posted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 1:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
From Big_Bird's Global Research Link, bold is mine.
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| The US Congress, UN, world leaders and most Arab states remain committed to Israel overtly or tacitly. They've done it despite Israel's many violations including the crime of aggression in its ongoing brutal assaults on Lebanon and the Occupied Territories that it falsely and disingenuously claims to be a justifiable response to the capture (not kidnapping) of three of its soldiers, a minor provocation at most. |
The good news is that Hezbollah is quite discredited in Lebanon, even if it has its fans on this chatboard. |
ALong with the capture of 3 soldiers though Hezbollah raided several posts along the border. |
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