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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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 Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:43 pm Post subject: |
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| mayorgc wrote: |
| crescent wrote: |
No, but then you have people with enough extra cash to be eating out 4-5 times a week at price gouging venues, and they are quite happy giving all that money away for no value in return. Yet when it comes to giving some of that money to someone who actually needs it, oh no.. there's a point to make. |
you're equating waiters to beggars on the street. The place I worked at, the waiters were making a ton of money each night. They were ALL twenty something young adults, no kids and they all went clubbing after their shift. They definitely weren't single mothers, they were wannabe actors. |
That's because his entire argument rests on these hypothetical struggling single mothers who are otherwise unemployable being the norm in the food industry. |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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| hellofaniceguy wrote: |
[And how many times throughout your life have you eaten out, had bad service, etc...and still left a tip? And left talking/thinking about the bad service. Many times I would venture to say.
I feel that the restaurant owners and other business owners who are living high on the hog with the nice homes and cars should pay their employees more! How else could these owners afford the nice things...because of their employees! And here their employees are struggling to pay their rent and living from paycheque to paycheque! That's my gripe. Period. Charge more for the food I say and pay your staff more! But to leave 15%~20% in a tip for a 30 dollar meal...no I say. It has nothing to do with being cheap Charlie.....
Some restaurants add a surcharge to the bill that is supposed to be a "built in" tiptiptip. This money is theoretically divided up among busboys and other staff, however it is not unheard of that some restaurant owners keep this fee, and the customer is still expected to tiptiptip. If the restaurant bill comes with a surcharge, I ask the waitress/waiter to remove it. If the answer is no, I tell the owner/manager to remove it��don't tell me how I have to spend my money...pay your staff more. Tipping is way out of hand I say. Whether or not you wish to patronize that particular restaurant again in the future is up to you! I�ll pay 5 bucks more for the meal�just pay your staff a decent wage! A restaurant is just another place to eat. And many around. Do you tip at a restaurant in korea? Japan? Those wait staff in korea earn far less than their American counterparts and work far more hours!
I have seen many wait staff in the U.S. head right for the table when the customer leaves and grab the tip left of the table before the customer gets out the door! Very tacky. It�s a shame that they have to rely on tips�I also see many times, customers making comments to each other about "having" to leave a tip when they don't want to.
Waiter/waitress comes over, takes my order, brings the water/drink(s) and food and I never see them again until it's time to leave.
I have actually done this as have my friends....we are waiting for more whatever....no waiter/waitress...we call the restaurant from our table for service...
Same with tipping the tow truck driver, taxi driver, barber, spa workers, hotel maids, auto mechanic, and on and on� |
Then why don't you apply tipping to the situations that deserve it, instead of withholding it in every case? |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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| mayorgc wrote: |
| you're equating waiters to beggars on the street. The place I worked at, the waiters were making a ton of money each night. They were ALL twenty something young adults, no kids and they all went clubbing after their shift. They definitely weren't single mothers, they were wannabe actors. |
For the last time, my argument does not revolve around the single mother. It was a case to represent the glaring fact that not all servers are smooth operators, working in high priced venues. Using that as an excuse to generally not tip is slimy.
I'm not denying those young slick types are out there, but is it legitimate to say they are the overwhelming majority? No way. They stick out because you are giving them money. You remember them. I've worked in places with the same scene, but there is a whole other world out there that I doubt any of you have seen much of.
I've worked in enough places with that single mother. There was always one. Divorcee. Victim of abuse. And, there was always that young university student who immigrated from a non-English speaking country, who's family was dirt poor. And there was always one older guy who had to deal with something, like his drivers license taken away because he was diabetic or had poor eyesight. There were probably more, but I didn't know their stories. The ones I did know, made it perfectly clear they needed that job to get by.
Sure they could work elsewhere, but in terms of making ends meet, they needed the tips behind serving. They worked hard to get better shifts. Minimum wage jobs for these people will not keep them afloat. Tips will. Factoring in travel time on public transport, due to one's general location, there will be other limitations as well.
And Fox News...
Having a job to do, and having one that make ends meet, are not one and the same. I can see how that would trip you up, though.
If you want to believe you won something, then so be it. I'm quite familiar with your need feed that ego.
Here... you can even have the last word.... i know you need that too. How about those stats?
Last edited by crescent on Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
For the last time, my argument does not revolve around the single mother...
... I've worked in enough places with that single mother. There was always one. Divorcee. Victim of abuse. |
So first you insist that your case doesn't revolve around struggling single mothers, then you go on to not only bring them up again in defense of your argument, but now they're not only single mothers, but ones who got divorced because they were victims of abuse too. How much of a sob story do you need to tell before you can just admit to yourself that your case is purely an emotional appeal based on a tiny minority of waiters?
| crescent wrote: |
And Fox News...
Having a job to do, and having one that make ends meet, are not one and the same. |
A job that can't make ends meet isn't a job worth having. Your argument is based on these hypothetical struggling single mothers (who are not divorcees and victims of abuse no less) who have no choice but to wait tables or not make ends meet. It's a poor argument, and that's why it's getting attacked.
| crescent wrote: |
| If you want to believe you won something, then so be it. I'm quite familiar with your need feed that ego. |
Much like your argumentative cliches, these juvenille psychological ploys don't work.
| crescent wrote: |
| Here... you can even have the last word.... i know you need that too. |
You all ready said you had bowed out of the discussion. Ending the discussion again doesn't really make much sense, does it? |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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Deng! I said I bowed out of arguing with YOU. And, I have.
I will be addressing all these errors, however, because I'm not one for being put in this fantasy world you create when you argue.
It's like playing checkers with a little boy who changes the rules.
Anything else I can help you with? Aw, shucks... last word? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
| Deng! I said I bowed out of arguing with YOU. And, I have. |
And yet you responded to me after that statement. And then you again said you were going to stop, and again responded.
Look, I don't care if you want to keep talking to me, and I don't care if you want to stop. But you continually saying, "I'm done talking to you," then persisting in talking to me is as retarded as the basis of your pro-tipping argument, and that says a lot.
| crescent wrote: |
I will be addressing all these errors, however, because I'm not one for being put in this fantasy world you create when you argue.
It's like playing checkers with a little boy who changes the rules. |
You've yet to address anything. You just keep insisting your argument isn't based on these marginal, unemployable single mothers, then you keep bringing them up. Now you've even embellished them into single divorcee mothers who've been abused. This is like a fishing story, except instead of the size of the fish growing with each retelling, the ridiculousness of your argument grows with each retelling.
| crescent wrote: |
| Anything else I can help you with? Aw, shucks... last word? |
There is not now -- nor was there ever -- anything you can help me with. If you want to talk, talk. If you don't want to talk, don't talk. I don't particularly care either way. As long as you keep harranguing people for not tipping, though, I'll probably keep mocking you for the ridiculous basis of your case. |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:06 pm Post subject: |
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Responding and arguing the topic are the same?
Another error I need to correct. You make a lot of these.
Last word? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
| Responding and arguing the topic are the same? |
In this case, yes, pretty much. It's only your inability to admit your ridiculous argument, predicated on abused divorcee mothers who can't find another job isn't worth taking seriously that keeps you responding.
Let's get real. You said you bowed out, hoping I would stop criticizing your argument, and I didn't. You tried the, "Last Word" gambit, hoping I would be too uncomfortable to respond because responding would seem like I was obeying you, but it didn't work. Now you're still trying to seem somehow in control of this dialogue, and it's just as transparent. You've thrown out lame internet cliche after lame internet cliche, which one's next? |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:18 am Post subject: |
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And it would seem we have our next lame internet cliche from Crescent: the angry PM. Don't private message your whiny nonsense to me. I didn't read it, and I won't read it. If you've got something to say, say it in the public eye. I'm not going to have a private discussion with you about anything, ever. You've been far too insulting, annoying, juvenille, and ridiculous for that.
Keep it in this thread or shut up. |
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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:29 am Post subject: |
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| I just want to say that I and Fox have disagreed on just about every topic under the sun, but I have never seen reason to insult him, and he has never insulted me. Sure we may disagree, but he will always debate you, not debase you. |
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sarahsiobhan
Joined: 24 May 2009
Location: Wherever I am , I am probably drinking tea.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 12:47 am Post subject: |
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Crescent, just give up. Fox has run you around six ways from Sunday using those tiresome, irritating tactics called Logic and Reason. Just get over it, admit defeat, and move on.
Incidentally, when in the West, I do tip. I don't like it, but I do it when I get good service. I will NOT tip if I get bad service, but in that case I make a point of speaking to the manager in charge to explain why, in vivid detail, I did not tip.
I fully agree with and support Fox and Mayorgc's position vis a vis the tipping culture; it needs to go. Pay people more, include it in the price of the meal, whatever. But these servers who wander around with a sense of entitlement make me furious.
A personal story:
Several years ago, my family and I were in a restaurant in Minnesota, on a family vacation. I was about 16. Our server was a lovely young woman, not much older than me, maybe 20 at the most. She was pleasant, genial, and efficient. My father, a very generous tipper, was pleased with her. HOWEVER, when she was carrying a huge tray of nachos to a table near ours, she tripped on a guests' coat and fell, flat out, and the nachos spread in at LEAST a five foot radius from her tray.
The room fell silent.
As this young lady was getting up, a small, portly man came out of nowhere and began to verbally abuse her in front of the entire restaurant, to the point where she was shaking and in tears, and the man whose coat she had tripped on came forward to say it was his fault, his coat had fallen off his chair, just an accident, my good man, no need for all this yelling, etc. The server scuttled back into the kitchen, and when she returned she was a changed creature, quiet, ashamed, humiliated and dehumanized. I was shocked.
My father, on the other hand, was enraged. As the father of three girls, no doubt it only took a few seconds to imagine myself or my sisters in that young woman's place, and he was furious at the way she was treated. When we left, he had written her a personal cheque for $1,000.00 and in the 'memo' section he wrote "Don't worry, it's nacho fault!"
Daddy likes to pun.
My point is this: I tip, when I get good service, but all things considered, it's a bad system. Pay a fair wage to your employees, and remove the tipping system. By all means, when someone goes above and beyond (or is verbally abused in public for no good reason...) give an extra gift, as appreciation. But it should NOT be expected, nor punished when not given. |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
And it would seem we have our next lame internet cliche from Crescent: the angry PM. Don't private message your whiny nonsense to me. I didn't read it, and I won't read it. If you've got something to say, say it in the public eye. I'm not going to have a private discussion with you about anything, ever. You've been far too insulting, annoying, juvenille, and ridiculous for that.
Keep it in this thread or shut up. |
WTF..You read it and replied! I was trying to spare this thread from lowering even more, yet you seem to be twitching madly over it.
You don't seem to get what being a hypocrite means, hmm? |
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crescent
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Location: yes.
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:08 am Post subject: |
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| sarahsiobhan wrote: |
| Crescent, just give up. Fox has danced around six ways from Sunday using those tiresome, irritating tactics called faulty Logic and misdirected Reason. Just get over it, admit it was a waste of time, and move on.. |
Right! Just like that in the logic problem thread? great stuff. |
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mayorgc
Joined: 19 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:05 am Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
For the last time, my argument does not revolve around the single mother. It was a case to represent the glaring fact that not all servers are smooth operators, working in high priced venues. Using that as an excuse to generally not tip is slimy. |
You're wrong. Your entire argument revolves around the plight of the single mother. My mentioning of the wannabe actor waiters making a ton of cash is in direct response to your "waiters are single mothers who actually need your tips" statement.
| Quote: |
| I'm not denying those young slick types are out there, but is it legitimate to say they are the overwhelming majority? No way. They stick out because you are giving them money. You remember them. I've worked in places with the same scene, but there is a whole other world out there that I doubt any of you have seen much of. |
You're literally equating the single mother waitress to charity cases. They are not beggars, they are employees of the restaurant. You think they have zero choice in life other than serving. I disagree.
| Quote: |
| I've worked in enough places with that single mother. There was always one. Divorcee. Victim of abuse. And, there was always that young university student who immigrated from a non-English speaking country, who's family was dirt poor. And there was always one older guy who had to deal with something, like his drivers license taken away because he was diabetic or had poor eyesight. There were probably more, but I didn't know their stories. The ones I did know, made it perfectly clear they needed that job to get by. |
And I've worked with the 26 year old actor who works 4 days a week, makes 100+ in tips per night along with their wage.
| Quote: |
| Sure they could work elsewhere, but in terms of making ends meet, they needed the tips behind serving. They worked hard to get better shifts. Minimum wage jobs for these people will not keep them afloat. Tips will. Factoring in travel time on public transport, due to one's general location, there will be other limitations as well. |
Well, if they could surely work elsewhere, they should, since they wouldn't have to rely on tips to make ends meet. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| crescent wrote: |
| Fox wrote: |
And it would seem we have our next lame internet cliche from Crescent: the angry PM. Don't private message your whiny nonsense to me. I didn't read it, and I won't read it. If you've got something to say, say it in the public eye. I'm not going to have a private discussion with you about anything, ever. You've been far too insulting, annoying, juvenille, and ridiculous for that.
Keep it in this thread or shut up. |
WTF..You read it and replied! |
No, I didn't read it, and replied to you that I didn't read it, and told you not to send another ever again.
| crescent wrote: |
| You don't seem to get what being a hypocrite means, hmm? |
You don't understand the definition of hypocrite. |
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