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airmax95
Joined: 02 Jun 2007
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 Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 1:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
That is overly simplistic and once again a "the system wants to trap you" argument. |
The system does want to trap you, Patrick. That's not doom and gloom, it's just reality. It doesn't want to trap you out of malice or spite, it wants to trap you because it's profitable to trap you. Indeed, it's awfully silly to imagine that in a capitalist society, a for-profit business would give up the opportunity to trap you in such a fashion if it had the option (which it does).
Banks don't lend you money to help you live your dreams. Banks lend you money because it's wildly profitable to lend you money, and it's wildly profitable because it's such a bad deal for the consumer. Where do you think the billions that get paid out each year in bonuses come from? They extract it from the economy, and housing loans are one method of doing that.
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Buying a property can be a very profitable and smart investement. |
It can be, but it usually isn't.
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| When I was in Korea, in the early 2000s, we decided to buy a house in Canada. We bought a nice house in a decent neighborhood and rented it out. The house paid for itself and we repaid the morgage loan in under 10 years. That meant we now had an asset worth a lot of money that we could move into should we return to Canada (we did) or keep renting for profit. |
That's great, but it's not the situation many home owners find themselves in. I find the number one feature that people who shrug off the current state of the economy have in common is lack of empathy for others. You've done well, but that doesn't mean everyone is, or that everyone can. You've clearly had a combination of intelligence, good choices, hard work, and good luck working in your favor. The simple reality is that not everyone else does, and excepting the hard work part, not everyone else necessarily can benefit from those things as much as you have.
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
| Many people do something like this and profit from it. Even if it takes longer than 10 years to pay back your morgage, the property can pay for itself if you rent it out. |
Back in reality, though, many, many people are occupied with simply ensuring they themselves have a place to live. The fact that you're shrugging that concern off and skipping straight to, "Hey, people should buy houses so they can rent them out and make a profit," shows total detachment from the experience of the common man. Hell, you wouldn't even be able to rent your property out if there weren't people struggling to find a place to live. Your own success in this regard mandates the existence of others who aren't doing as well as you. Why spit on them by trivializing their situation?
| PatrickGHBusan wrote: |
Does it tie you down to one location?
Not unless you let it. Want to move? Sell the property and get your money back plus whatever you paid on it and tag on the increase in value for your property if you bought it in the right area... |
And here you go again showing a total lack of empathy for the situation many people are in. A ridiculous number of people right now owe more on their houses than the houses are currently worth. "Hey, just sell and move!" doesn't work if you'd be walking away with less than no money from the transaction.
I'm glad things have worked out well for you, and I'm sure you've worked hard for it. Be proud, that's fine. But try to be realistic, too; for every guy like you, there must be dozens who couldn't hope to achieve the same. That's how the system works. One economically succeeds not by meeting some objective standard, but by doing better than the average person. This requires many "losers" for each "winner." |
A couple of things I totally disagree with.
1. Buying a home is generally a good investment unless you overpay. It's no different than any other kind of investment. What's the alternative? Living with your parents or renting. Are they really better alternatives? Renting gives you the freedom to live where you want and invest elsewhere; why then make the assumption that those investments would actually pay off?
2. Some of us posted here to give the OP a clearer sense of what might be possible. Nobody is suggesting here that he will drive a Rolls Royce in 5 years. But he clearly wants some advice and the suggestions to prepare and be aware of yourself and your environment are excellent. To say the economy sucks and there really isn't a chance because of broad social challenges like nepotism is really narrow-minded and doesn't help the OP at all. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| airmax95 wrote: |
| 1. Buying a home is generally a good investment unless you overpay. It's no different than any other kind of investment. What's the alternative? Living with your parents or renting. Are they really better alternatives? Renting gives you the freedom to live where you want and invest elsewhere; why then make the assumption that those investments would actually pay off? |
The current housing situation demonstrates that a lot of the "growth" behind the housing market -- which is what made housing a reasonable potential investment -- was illusory all along. If you can turn your house into a money-producing asset -- like Patrick did by renting it out -- then it's worth speaking of as a reliable investment. If you're planning on living it it, on the other hand, you're completely open to getting screwed in the long term, just like millions upon millions of people have been.
Sure, another investment could go poorly for you. The difference is, you can diversify those other investments (meaning if one of them goes bad, they don't necessarily all go bad), and if for some reason you can no longer continue to invest in one of those fields, you don't suddenly lose your living space. An investment is always a gamble, but why gamble with the place your family lives? Renting + investing elsewhere is in my estimation generally a better option for people like the original poster, who don't have a long-term steady job, don't have a support structure to fall back on if things go bad, and aren't sitting on a large cash surplus.
I'm not trying to attack you, and I'm not trying to be gloomy. I'm just giving the original poster what I feel is an honest assessment of the idea of investing in housing, and I don't think it's a good one given his situation. Most of the talk about the economy is simply supplementing that.
| airmax95 wrote: |
| 2. Some of us posted here to give the OP a clearer sense of what might be possible. Nobody is suggesting here that he will drive a Rolls Royce in 5 years. But he clearly wants some advice and the suggestions to prepare and be aware of yourself and your environment are excellent. To say the economy sucks and there really isn't a chance because of broad social challenges like nepotism is really narrow-minded and doesn't help the OP at all. |
A broad discussion on the state of the economy is required to explain why home ownership may be something the original poster wants to avoid. I feel it's reasonably salient. I also don't feel anything said detracts from the very good advice to work hard, improve qualifications, network, and so forth. It might not work out for him, but it's more likely to work out for him than doing nothing is. Buying a home, on the other hand, especially when he's all ready in debt, is a great way to completely screw himself right now, so I think such suggestions merit rebuttal.
| airmax95 wrote: |
| I also think most homeowners realize that most of what they pay is interest, but some is principal, and when you are renting nothing is ultimately yours. |
I really don't like this line of thinking very much. When you're renting the property in question never becomes yours, but you become more free to invest your surplus income as you wish. Renting also avoids paying property taxes, minimizes insurance costs, almost entirely removes maintenance costs, and often reduces utility bills and commuting costs. All that savings can also be invested. So while the property itself may ultimately never be yours, something else certainly can be.
Ultimately it just comes down to math. I think people often don't do the math, though, and instead end up buying houses based on questionable ideas like the "You'll eventually own your house, but you'll never own your apartment," line that is so often bandied about. Lots of people are unfortunately suffering right now due to that lack of real consideration. |
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Stan Rogers
Joined: 20 Aug 2010
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Going to Fort Mac and buying an old run down trailer in a trailer park for $400,000 is not an investment I would make. |
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Mr. Pink
Joined: 21 Oct 2003
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| airmax95 wrote: |
| 1. Buying a home is generally a good investment unless you overpay. It's no different than any other kind of investment. What's the alternative? Living with your parents or renting. Are they really better alternatives? Renting gives you the freedom to live where you want and invest elsewhere; why then make the assumption that those investments would actually pay off? |
The current housing situation demonstrates that a lot of the "growth" behind the housing market -- which is what made housing a reasonable potential investment -- was illusory all along. If you can turn your house into a money-producing asset -- like Patrick did by renting it out -- then it's worth speaking of as a reliable investment. If you're planning on living it it, on the other hand, you're completely open to getting screwed in the long term, just like millions upon millions of people have been.
Sure, another investment could go poorly for you. The difference is, you can diversify those other investments (meaning if one of them goes bad, they don't necessarily all go bad), and if for some reason you can no longer continue to invest in one of those fields, you don't suddenly lose your living space. An investment is always a gamble, but why gamble with the place your family lives? Renting + investing elsewhere is in my estimation generally a better option for people like the original poster, who don't have a long-term steady job, don't have a support structure to fall back on if things go bad, and aren't sitting on a large cash surplus.
I'm not trying to attack you, and I'm not trying to be gloomy. I'm just giving the original poster what I feel is an honest assessment of the idea of investing in housing, and I don't think it's a good one given his situation. Most of the talk about the economy is simply supplementing that.
| airmax95 wrote: |
| 2. Some of us posted here to give the OP a clearer sense of what might be possible. Nobody is suggesting here that he will drive a Rolls Royce in 5 years. But he clearly wants some advice and the suggestions to prepare and be aware of yourself and your environment are excellent. To say the economy sucks and there really isn't a chance because of broad social challenges like nepotism is really narrow-minded and doesn't help the OP at all. |
A broad discussion on the state of the economy is required to explain why home ownership may be something the original poster wants to avoid. I feel it's reasonably salient. I also don't feel anything said detracts from the very good advice to work hard, improve qualifications, network, and so forth. It might not work out for him, but it's more likely to work out for him than doing nothing is. Buying a home, on the other hand, especially when he's all ready in debt, is a great way to completely screw himself right now, so I think such suggestions merit rebuttal.
| airmax95 wrote: |
| I also think most homeowners realize that most of what they pay is interest, but some is principal, and when you are renting nothing is ultimately yours. |
I really don't like this line of thinking very much. When you're renting the property in question never becomes yours, but you become more free to invest your surplus income as you wish. Renting also avoids paying property taxes, minimizes insurance costs, almost entirely removes maintenance costs, and often reduces utility bills and commuting costs. All that savings can also be invested. So while the property itself may ultimately never be yours, something else certainly can be.
Ultimately it just comes down to math. I think people often don't do the math, though, and instead end up buying houses based on questionable ideas like the "You'll eventually own your house, but you'll never own your apartment," line that is so often bandied about. Lots of people are unfortunately suffering right now due to that lack of real consideration. |
I think it depends on where you buy your house in the rent versus house ownership debate.
I was going to side with rent being better until I figured out my brother would still have cleared over $200,000 in profit on his house anyway I figured it. That is mostly due to where he lives. If he sold today, after expenses like renovations, maintenance and taxes, he'd clear $200-300,000. In 20 years, it would probably be close to the same, as the value would still increase to match the taxes and other expenses.
I think in smaller, non-growth markets, renting is a way better option. In the town where I went to university, houses do not double or triple in price. In the area where my brother lives (different part of the province), most new houses double within a year or so due to demand. I rented and the cost was very good. If I could have landed a teaching job and still rented, I would have been laughing all the way to the bank. |
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English Matt
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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To return to the OP's original post for a moment.....and several of his subsequent ones as well......you really need to work out what you want to do (work-wise) before you head to Canada, the US, Australia, Europe or wherever you end up going. What are you passionate about and what would make you want to get out of bed in the morning - a job you would be happy and glad to have?
Once you figure out what you want (that is to say WHERE you want to be in say 5 or 10 or even 15 years time) you need to look into WHAT you need to do to achieve that (and HOW will be able to do that).
For instance, I knew (before coming to Korea) I wanted to work as a researcher for an NGO, think tank, research group or governmental body focusing on Eastern Europe and Russia. That's the WHERE.
I knew that to achieve this I needed to become fluent in at least one other language if not two. I also knew that I needed to go back to University to get a Masters degree to refocus my resume academically - my first degree was in Archaeology. That's (part of) the WHAT.
Learning languages and going back to University obviously costs money. So I decided to go to Korea. I got a job in a Public School....I didn't want to waste time (potentially) getting screwed over by a hagwon and having to invest more time in Korea than was necessary. Additionally I wanted a job that would give me enough spare-time for side projects....such as studying German. Despite saving a fair amount of money in Korea, I can't really afford to go back to the UK for my Masters....the tuition and the cost of living would kill my savings. So I decided to move to Berlin to become fluent in German and next year I will apply for a spot on the International Relations Masters course here. The cost of living is extremely low and there are no tuition fees at the Universities here. So this is HOW I am achieving (in part) WHAT I need to do in order to hopefully get to WHERE I want to go.
Stalin84 it made me laugh when you said you were too old to go back to University or join the army because you are now 26. I'm 28 and will go back to University when I am 29 or 30. I will graduate when I am 32. I moved to Korea shortly before my 26th birthday and spent 2 years there. I am not trying to make you feel bad nor am I attacking you, but you have to get a grip and realise that you are still very young. It may take many, many years before you realise your dreams......you might not realise them at all, I might not realise mine, but I can guarantee you that you will never be happy and never find yourself in a satisfying and fulfilling career if you create these obstacles in your head.
I'm not saying join the army or go back to University if these are not things you want to do....hell I would never recommend anyone join the army......but when you say that you CAN'T do these things because of your age, what you are really saying is you DON'T WANT to do these things and are using your age as a convenient excuse. You need to get rid of these excuses and start doing what is NECESSARY even if it is something you DON'T WANT to do. I didn't want to go to Korea for two years, but I had to in order to be able to be doing what I am doing with my life right now.
I'd recommend going back to Korea for a year or two, save as much money as possible, use the spare time to work on something that will benefit you in the long-run (like another language). Use the time to really work out what you want to do with your life and research possibilities on the internet. If you need another degree but can't afford the tuition fees, remember that not every country charges tuition and even amongst those that do there are countries that charge low tuition fees. Many countries in Europe for instance offer tuition-free or low fee courses to anyone (regardless of nationality, regardless of whether you are from the EU or not).
Stop worrying about building up equity, settling down and having a family as soon as possible, and just worry about doing what is necessary to create yourself a better future. And when your mind throws up a reason as to why you cannot do something, examine that reason and make sure that it just isn't a convenient excuse that you are using to stay in the bubble-world of TEFL. |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:16 pm Post subject: |
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Nobody in the thread is going to disagree about planning ahead. Actually, it never seemed like the OP was about to jump back into Canada blindly - which is why he made this thread to begin with. I think planning ahead is something that doesn't need to be mentioned in this thread unless you have something more specific to say.
English Matt - I understand that more education and credentials can help you if there are opportunities but higher education comes with a risk, it being the high cost of tuition and more debt that can't be written off with bankruptcy. I think it would benefit the OP most if he didn't have to saddle more debt in the long run. Imagine, if he couldn't find a job in Canada, he would have a house-sized debt but with no house to live in. Unless his education immediately leads to high pay and close to guaranteed employment, I would not consider it. I honestly can't think of any job like this Canada. Ideally, it would be best if the OP didn't have to go to school and get a decent job without going back into more debt. Working for the government would be ideal but even though the OP has the credentials to work at various government jobs (a BA is not even required) he will probably not get into it. I can either say it's competitive or that hiring practices are based on nepotism but the end result is he most likely won't get in.
Here's some advice to the OP. Try applying to jobs on monster.ca and workopolis.ca. See if you can get the attention of any employer. See if you can get any emails back interested in an interview with you. That will give you an honest idea about how the job market is. You can do this for fun. You can even lie on your resume to test how picky employers are. Have fun. |
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Captain Corea
Joined: 28 Feb 2005
Location: Seoul
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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That's where I and recessiontime agree - I don't think it'd be wise to head back and assume a whole lot of debt.
After a stint in Korea/Asia, you should be able to head back with a fair bit of cash. |
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English Matt
Joined: 12 Oct 2008
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| recessiontime wrote: |
Nobody in the thread is going to disagree about planning ahead. Actually, it never seemed like the OP was about to jump back into Canada blindly - which is why he made this thread to begin with. I think planning ahead is something that doesn't need to be mentioned in this thread unless you have something more specific to say.
English Matt - I understand that more education and credentials can help you if there are opportunities but higher education comes with a risk, it being the high cost of tuition and more debt that can't be written off with bankruptcy. I think it would benefit the OP most if he didn't have to saddle more debt in the long run. Imagine, if he couldn't find a job in Canada, he would have a house-sized debt but with no house to live in. Unless his education immediately leads to high pay and close to guaranteed employment, I would not consider it. I honestly can't think of any job like this Canada. Ideally, it would be best if the OP didn't have to go to school and get a decent job without going back into more debt. Working for the government would be ideal but even though the OP has the credentials to work at various government jobs (a BA is not even required) he will probably not get into it. I can either say it's competitive or that hiring practices are based on nepotism but the end result is he most likely won't get in.
Here's some advice to the OP. Try applying to jobs on monster.ca and workopolis.ca. See if you can get the attention of any employer. See if you can get any emails back interested in an interview with you. That will give you an honest idea about how the job market is. You can do this for fun. You can even lie on your resume to test how picky employers are. Have fun. |
I didn't say he should get into debt. If you look at my post again you will see that I told the OP to do what is necessary, not to spend every penny he has. Canada is not the only country that he can work or study in. I spent two years working in Canada and know firsthand how nepotistic the employment situation is there.
If he wants to have a good job, that he enjoys, that will pay enough so that he can enjoy a decent quality of life, I venture he will need to upgrade his qualifications from a BA in Philosophy to something that will make him a commodity (as much as I hate looking at things in this way). He is Canadian (not intended as a play on the old Molson ads btw). If he wants a decent job in the government, or indeed in many big companies, he will need to learn French. If he wants a job that pays more than a crappy hourly wage, he will need to offer something that is beyond the usual.....a professional certification such as a CMA, CPA, CHRP (pick your acronym), or an academic qualification such as a BEd, a JD, a Medical degree etc., or a degree that is relevant to the particular field that he wants to enter (now were his Bachelors relevant to any field then I wouldn't necessarily promote the idea of going back to Uni, but his degree - like mine - is most likely not relevant to any job he might be interested in doing) and a Masters degree is fast becoming the new standard by which graduates applying for graduate jobs are judged.
The OP doesn't have to go back to University in Canada, just as I am choosing not to go back to University in the UK. I believe that access to a University education should be based on one's abilities not their bank balance. The OP has the opportunity to sock away a lot of money over the next 2 or 3 years and then use that money to take a chance on his life, upgrade his skills and qualifications and put himself into contention for the sort of jobs that might just offer him a fulfilling future. He might well have to spend some more years in Korea, followed by a few years outside of Canada pursuing the education, skills, training and experience that he will need for his future. However, if he sits around in Asia, saving little and making up excuses to stay where he is, whilst listening to people who's idea of sage advice is to say apply for a few jobs on Monster.ca then he is already doomed. You don't get a good entry level job by sending emails to employers from halfway around the world.....unless you're applying for a job as an EFL Teacher in Korea that is. |
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brento1138
Joined: 17 Nov 2004
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:35 am Post subject: |
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| If one heads back to Canada, are you allowed to have say $20,000 in your bank account for general living costs and take out a student loan at the same time? |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:54 am Post subject: |
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| brento1138 wrote: |
| If one heads back to Canada, are you allowed to have say $20,000 in your bank account for general living costs and take out a student loan at the same time? |
I think it depends on your income as well as how much your family makes. You can have 20000 in your bank if you just dont mention it but if they see your income tax and it says you made a sizable amount they may deny you it. |
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asylum seeker
Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Location: On your computer screen.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 8:40 am Post subject: |
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| Stalin84 wrote: |
| ChocolateStarfish wrote: |
Um no. I think he's lazy, because after about 7 responses and hearing that it is possible but difficult to get work at home, he basically says "Ok, I guess I should stay then".
defensive much? |
I have loans to pay off. You sound like the kind of person that didn't need to take out loans for university and your idea of "enduring" involves waiting on jobs while living off of your husband/parent's until you're able to sustain yourself.
Unlike you, I have no safety net. I'm single, my parents make less than I do and my fallback would basically involve returning to my parent's house in the middle of nowhere and working at the gas station.
I hope this helps you understand the difference between lazy and safe. If I play my cards wrong in Canada, I could end up homeless. I've never had a safety net. I have 40k+ in loans I'd rather not default on and right now I'm in the precarious situation of living in a foreign country without a job.
If I went home and had to work minimum wage to tide me over until I got an "adult job", I wouldn't be able to make loan payments and the government would start slicing my paycheques in half. Until I take care of the loans I want to be making enough salary to have a life and not rely on the courtesy of others.
On top of all of that, I haven't gotten the travel bug out of my system yet. If I go back home and work my butt off so I might be able to have a career later on, I probably won't get another chance to see the world until I'm 40.
By the way, you also sound like the kind of person that thinks that its necessary to take an RV on a camping trip. |
It sounds like your best option is to come back to Korea and stay for the rest of your life. |
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redaxe
Joined: 01 Dec 2008
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| Posted: Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:10 am Post subject: |
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| asylum seeker wrote: |
| Stalin84 wrote: |
| ChocolateStarfish wrote: |
Um no. I think he's lazy, because after about 7 responses and hearing that it is possible but difficult to get work at home, he basically says "Ok, I guess I should stay then".
defensive much? |
I have loans to pay off. You sound like the kind of person that didn't need to take out loans for university and your idea of "enduring" involves waiting on jobs while living off of your husband/parent's until you're able to sustain yourself.
Unlike you, I have no safety net. I'm single, my parents make less than I do and my fallback would basically involve returning to my parent's house in the middle of nowhere and working at the gas station.
I hope this helps you understand the difference between lazy and safe. If I play my cards wrong in Canada, I could end up homeless. I've never had a safety net. I have 40k+ in loans I'd rather not default on and right now I'm in the precarious situation of living in a foreign country without a job.
If I went home and had to work minimum wage to tide me over until I got an "adult job", I wouldn't be able to make loan payments and the government would start slicing my paycheques in half. Until I take care of the loans I want to be making enough salary to have a life and not rely on the courtesy of others.
On top of all of that, I haven't gotten the travel bug out of my system yet. If I go back home and work my butt off so I might be able to have a career later on, I probably won't get another chance to see the world until I'm 40.
By the way, you also sound like the kind of person that thinks that its necessary to take an RV on a camping trip. |
It sounds like your best option is to come back to Korea and stay for the rest of your life. |
Well, clearly he's looking for some sort of approval to do that, judging by how he shoots down every suggestion for how to go back to his home country and make a living there. Stalin84, if what you really want is to go back to Korea and teach English some more, it's fine with us. Dave's ESL Cafe approves of your decision. |
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PatrickGHBusan
Joined: 24 Jun 2008
Location: Busan (1997-2008) Canada 2008 -
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 2:26 am Post subject: |
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Here is a plan Stalin.
Go back to Korea and teach. You can pay back your 40K loan in 2-3 years. Then you will be in the CLEAR financially and that should really unshackle you and give you more options.
40K could even be repaid in 2 years if you budget right and make an effort.
Once you are debt free you can re-think your options. |
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Satchel Paige
Joined: 29 Dec 2009
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:33 am Post subject: |
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| silkhighway wrote: |
| Satchel Paige wrote: |
| silkhighway wrote: |
| in the meantime building no equity, no retirement plan, no job security, no opportunity for job re-training or diversification, that's your choice, and the easiest choice to make. |
You could say the same thing about a good number of jobs 'back home' as well. How many people end up becoming CEOs? Not many. How many people end up stuck in mid-management level positions until, one day, they get the pink slip after finding out their jobs have outsourced to India? Quite a bit more, I would assume.
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So what are you suggesting? That people should stay in Korea teaching ESL forever because many people in Canada work in dead-end jobs? |
I'm not suggesting that at all. You made that connection. I'm merely suggesting that not all ESL jobs in Korea fit the description above ( no equity, no retirement plan, no job security, no opportunity for job re-training or diversification), just as not all jobs back in Canada can lead to successful fulfilling careers, either. |
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recessiontime
Joined: 21 Jun 2010
Location: Got avatar privileges nyahahaha
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:52 am Post subject: |
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When you are in Korea teaching, do you think about how to move up in the world?
My experience was teaching in a high school was basically being in autopilot. Living day to day with tomorrow's lesson plan in mind. Other than that it was scheming on how to avoid spending time with my co-teachers who wanted to showcase me to their family.
I was so busy in Korea, I barely had any time for myself. I'm thinking that the situation is similar for others in Korea. I also rarely hear talks about this type of issue on this forum which lead me to this conclusion.
Maybe this post warrants the creation of entire new thread. |
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