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Fat_Elvis

Joined: 17 Aug 2006
Location: In the ghetto

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:25 am Post subject:

visitorq wrote:

Fat_Elvis wrote:

The Cato Institute is just a mouthpiece for the corporate interests that fund it, just as the 'libertarianism' it espouses is just a corporate propaganda seeking to reduce taxes and regulation for big business.

Except that libertarianism (which you know nothing about) would also cut off all unfair trade advantages and corporate welfare for big business (thus causing many of the worst ones to go bust instead of getting bailed out by the fascist-socialist government).

Also, saying the Cato Institute is a mouthpiece for the interests that fund it cuts both ways: the AGW global warming movement is also just a mouthpiece, the difference being it's worth hundreds of billions and has full government support (a sure sign it's evil), not just a couple hundred thousand or million here and there.

Quote:

Could you please explain why oil interests would be interested in supported the idea that manmade global warming is occurring because of carbon in the atmosphere? Any government action would push the price of oil up, causing people to turn to alternative energy sources and decreasing profits. That's the law of supply and demand, simple economics.

I've already explained this several times... In the first place, the entire economy depends on oil and this is not going to change. People can't simply change over to alternative energy, because there is nothing that comes close to meeting our energy needs (except possibly nuclear, which is hardy a good substitute when it can cause catastrophic, permanent disasters like in Fukushima). Even if alternative energy does become more viable, the big oil monopolies will want to be in charge of it, and will most likely use state funding and regulation to achieve their aims.

In the meantime, the government causing oil prices to increase (a result of state intervention causing artificial scarcity) will allow the big oil companies to make more profits while producing less. Same old monopoly system as always. Ideal for them, terrible for the public. Also, the major banks that our government owes most of its debt to also own all the major oil companies. These same banks would receive the lion's share of carbon taxes.

Why else do you think an oil baron turned crony politician like Al Gore (who lives in a $9 million ocean front mansion, one of four he has) would be so passionate about carbon taxes? Because it's all about money, and insider connections to benefit from the monopoly.

Quote:

Well, I already disproved your idea that the sun is causing climate change, so what else could it be?

Oh really? Can you disprove that the tides are caused by the moon too? Seriously, you've got nothing. You haven't proven or disproved a single thing anywhere. Obviously the sun causes climate change, since if the sun were magically turned off there would be no climate. The earth would turn into a ball of ice.

Quote:

And do you have evidence of the massive global conspiracy involving thousands of climate change scientists, policy makers and politicians yet?

Yes. The climate gate emails, of which there is an entire mega-thread devoted. Of course you're too lazy to go read it in detail, so I'll just leave you to your ignorance. You want the truth? Go ask Al Gore, he would never lie to you Rolling Eyes

So, you're suggesting a massive conspiracy involving not only climate change scientists, policy makers and politicians but also oil company executives?

I read the Climategate thread and there is no real evidence that is not already already in the public domain. And as I have said in this thread at least four or five times before, the CRU was cleared of wrongdoing by five separate investigations, to which you say it is a conspiracy and for which I am still waiting for proof, which you still haven't provided.

Oh Lord, this is why I gave up on you last time, you're like a broken record, and you're not listening to a word I say. HELLO? CAN YOU HEAR ME?

Last edited by Fat_Elvis on Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:30 am; edited 1 time in total

Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:07 am Post subject:

visitorq wrote:

"real life events" such as the US invading middle eastern countries (like Iraq and Libya), and putting sanctions on others (Iran) is also caused by the government.

So the evil government invaded iraq precisely so that they could raise the price of oil?
Why didn't they just raise it artificially like you say they can?
Was saddam in on it too- torching his wells to induce scarcity?

Quote:

yes, government interference in these things often has evil consequences.

Most hospitals rely on the government for funding.
If funding = "interference" to you, then long live interference.

Quote:

Yes, because the framework is not yet in place and Al Gore has not yet been able to position himself as the Ayatollah of Carbon Taxation

Why does your argument depend to a large degree on the acceptance of imaginary fantasy scenarios?

visitorq

Joined: 11 Jan 2008

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:57 am Post subject:

Fat_Elvis wrote:

I read the Climategate thread and there is no real evidence that is not already already in the public domain.

Okay, so you didn't read the Climategate thread then...

Quote:

And as I have said in this thread at least four or five times before, the CRU was cleared of wrongdoing by five separate investigations, to which you say it is a conspiracy and for which I am still waiting for proof, which you still haven't provided.

The CRU was "cleared" by its own supporters. It's an absolute sham. The equivalent of the mafia setting up their own investigation and clearing themselves of any wrongdoing.

Quote:

Oh Lord, this is why I gave up on you last time, you're like a broken record, and you're not listening to a word I say. HELLO? CAN YOU HEAR ME?

You're not worth the effort.

visitorq

Joined: 11 Jan 2008

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:03 am Post subject:

Julius wrote:

visitorq wrote:

"real life events" such as the US invading middle eastern countries (like Iraq and Libya), and putting sanctions on others (Iran) is also caused by the government.

So the evil government invaded iraq precisely so that they could raise the price of oil?

Not "precisely" (there's you putting words into my mouth again, a sure sign that you're losing the debate), but in part, yes.

Quote:

Why didn't they just raise it artificially like you say they can?

Um, that's what they did do Laughing

Are you trying to be funny?

Quote:

Was saddam in on it too- torching his wells to induce scarcity?

That was just scorched earth. Unfortunately for Saddam, he had precious little chance no matter what he did.

Quote:

Most hospitals rely on the government for funding.
If funding = "interference" to you, then long live interference.

Nonsense. You liberal types love to complain about how expensive health care is, yet fail to understand that free market competition is the single easiest way to fix it. Let the hospitals fund themselves and compete for customers like any business. Prices go down and service improves. While we're at it, let's deregulate the industry to break the strangle hold of big insurance (without government regulation monopolies cannot exist). Government interference (like Obamacare, written by the insurance industry to benefit them and force people into buying their worthless products) just messes up everything.

Quote:

Yes, because the framework is not yet in place and Al Gore has not yet been able to position himself as the Ayatollah of Carbon Taxation

Why does your argument depend to a large degree on the acceptance of imaginary fantasy scenarios?

It doesn't. This is just your failure to understand anything or comprehend logic. I know, it must be tough for you...

Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:22 am Post subject:

Quote:

You're not worth the effort

Hahahaha
We're only keeping you going for the entertainment factor mate.

Lets do a run down of some of visitorQ's gems.

Quote:

I am not a conspiracy theorist; because I deal in fact.

So..."america invaded iraq so as to raise the oil price" is well-documented solid fact?

Quote:

Most of those dictators were installed by the CIA in the first place... It has nothing to do with being Western-centric, it's just a fact

So the CIA was on the phone to gaddafi in 1969 when he and a few other junior officers got the idea to sieze power while king Idris was on holiday?

Quote:

CO2 does not cause global warming

Straightforward spectroscopy shows that CO2 absorbs infrared at 15 microns. This is simple proof that CO2 is a greenhouse gas. It warms up the atmosphere.
or just look at venus:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0019103588901169
Please note the date of this paper and the title, pre dates the IPCCs first assessment report by 2 years, Al Gore being VP by 5 years. Actually with a submission date of March 1987 the paper pre dates the IPCC itself.

Did Al Gore travel back in time to prove the greenhouuse effect?

Quote:

It is an obscene hoax, the biggest the world has ever seen.

So decades of sattelite imagery and photography is all lies?
http://www.popsci.com/environment/article/2009-07/satellite-pictures-show-thinning-artic-ice
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00602/news-graphics-2005-_602557a.jpg
http://s3images.coroflot.com/user_files/individual_files/281076_qdtbjUyd6Nervdzs19JWQ4HeB.jpg
http://www.thewe.cc/weplanet/news/water/dramatic_melt_in_arctic_icecape.htm

Quote:

the global elite want to put a tax on life itself (CO2)

If you want to enjoy this essence of life, you could always try breathing it for a few minutes. You'd be dead.

Quote:

The British parliament is a pack of liars and crooks.

Quote:

Pretty much the entire economy could be taxed at will, as much as the government chooses

It already is and has been for centuries. If such taxes didn't exist then your standard of living would actually be lower. So far from "controlling every aspect of our lives", taxes enhance our lives (so long as the money is spent wisely of course).

Quote:

Just raising the household electric bill of everyone in the US by a few percent (not including further increases due to inflation) would amount to billions. Then there's a tax on gas, a tax on transportation, a tax on waste disposal, a tax on anything you consume (since CO2 is produced during the manufacturing of... everything

There already are taxes for all of the above. Do you expect your garbage to be removed for free?
Looks like your apocalyptic scenario has been with us for hundreds of years aready. Laughing

visitorq

Joined: 11 Jan 2008

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:32 pm Post subject:

Julius wrote:

Quote:

You're not worth the effort

Hahahaha
We're only keeping you going for the entertainment factor mate.

You're still going because you're incapable of stopping, no matter how deep a hole you dig for yourself. You couldn't shut up before getting the last word if your life depended on it.

Quote:

Lets do a run down of some of visitorQ's gems.

Quote:

I am not a conspiracy theorist; because I deal in fact.

So..."america invaded iraq so as to raise the oil price" is well-documented solid fact?

Strawman. That is not the claim I made.

Quote:

Most of those dictators were installed by the CIA in the first place... It has nothing to do with being Western-centric, it's just a fact

So the CIA was on the phone to gaddafi in 1969 when he and a few other junior officers got the idea to sieze power while king Idris was on holiday?

Not sure what this has to do with climate change.

Quote:

CO2 does not cause global warming

The above in no way proves that CO2 causes global warming. Nobody denies that CO2 is very trace, weak greenhouse gas. It just doesn't affect climate change in any but a completely negligible way.

Quote:

It is an obscene hoax, the biggest the world has ever seen.

For the millionth time, none of this proves that it is human caused.

Quote:

the global elite want to put a tax on life itself (CO2)

If you want to enjoy this essence of life, you could always try breathing it for a few minutes. You'd be dead.

Tell that to the plant life on the earth, genius. See how far you get without plants.

Quote:

Pretty much the entire economy could be taxed at will, as much as the government chooses

Not only are you wrong (and a blithering know-nothing when it comes to economics), but taxes are not spent wisely. You post some of the least thought out things I've ever read.

Quote:

There already are taxes for all of the above. Do you expect your garbage to be removed for free?
Looks like your apocalyptic scenario has been with us for hundreds of years aready. Laughing

Try doubling these taxes. Or tripling them. People would not accept it (or accept their standard of living being taken from them) unless they were lied and made to believe they're spending money for a "noble" cause, like saving the earth (*insert sad photo of panda or seal here to appeal to emotion)... Beyond that, I expect to pay for services, but not to the government to waste on bloated bureaucracies and for services that can be provided by anyone willing to provide them privately, and for cheaper (since competition is allowed in free markets) than the amount we have to pay in taxes (as well as through inflation caused by government borrowing and spending).

Kuros

Joined: 27 Apr 2004

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:57 pm Post subject:

Julius wrote:

Sorry but the evidence for climate change is overwhelming and it comes from tens of thousands of unconnected scientists, sources, and lines of evidence.

Yes, but the evidence for climate change as doomsday is lacking and inconclusive. There are multiple circumstances where scientists have overstated their case. But the most heinous example of politically motivated bullshit was not by a scientist. It was Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth. He politicized the issue in response to the politicization by corporate interests. He tarnished his credibility with misinformation after disinformation.

Furthermore, even if we believe that AGW is a serious problem (and I do), we can still disagree with Kyoto and Copenhagen. All the Climate Change Treaties were horribly inefficient, planning to spend a dollar to get twenty or thirty cents in damage prevention.

Lots of both climate denialism and leftist fear-mongering on this thread. Sorry.

Privateer

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:08 pm Post subject:

repeat post Last edited by Privateer on Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:11 pm; edited 2 times in total

Privateer

Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:10 pm Post subject:

visitorq wrote:

Privateer wrote:

It really is depressing that we have vast problems in the world, everyone knows about them, there are plenty of ideas on how to solve them, and virtually no one in any of our governments is doing a damn thing about them.

Actually most of our problems are caused by the government in the first place, and often deliberately. It's only natural that things will not get better as long as people keep expecting gov't "authorities" (really just a mafia posing as government) to fix everything.

Quote:

It seems like, in the words of Fred Reed, 'there are no adults'. Not in the leadership, anyway.

There are adults - you just wouldn't know it to watch the mass media or by listening to scripted speeches read by politicians off of teleprompters... They talk to us like we're children (and often act stupid themselves, like the case of the previous president Bush); unfortunately such a large segment of the public is so dumbed-down at this point that they may as well be...

(actually I take it back... labeling people childish who have such an utterly insurmountable lack of discernment, like ya-ta boy and his Obamanoid ilk, is an insult to children)

The problem is not 'government' as such: the problem is that the government does not represent us. It no longer represents our interests. That needs to be fixed, because the problems we face are too large to be fixed by individuals, and because large companies cannot survive unless they pursue profit at the expense of all other concerns. We need collective action from the population to put pressure on governments to act responsibly.

And the public is not 'dumbed down'; the public is heavily propagandized and issues are purposely clouded.

Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006

Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:54 pm Post subject:

visitorq wrote:

Julius wrote:

So..."america invaded iraq so as to raise the oil price" is well-documented solid fact?

Strawman. That is not the claim I made.

But here it is.. only a couple of posts back.

VisitorQ wrote:

Julius wrote:

So the evil government invaded iraq precisely so that they could raise the price of oil?

... in part, yes.

VisitorQ wrote:

I am not a conspiracy theorist; because I deal in fact.

Facts like "they didn't kill Osama Bin laden" ?
Is that a conspiracy theory, or is it a fact? you don't seem to be able to tell the diff.

Is Al-queda in on it as well? Because they acknowledged his death and installed a new leader.

"VisitorQ wrote:

Julius wrote:

So the CIA was on the phone to gaddafi in 1969 when he and a few other junior officers got the idea to sieze power while king Idris was on holiday?

Not sure what this has to do with climate change.

Its just another of your ficitious claims. You have a habit of making wild and unverifiable statements, then claiming everyone else are sheep for not believing them. Sorry but most people are more cautious and logical than you.

VisitorQ wrote:

CO2 does not cause global warming

VisitorQ wrote:

Nobody denies that CO2 is very trace, weak greenhouse gas.

"Nobody" being you I take it? OK so you contradicted yourself.

VisitorQ wrote:

It just doesn't affect climate change in any but a completely negligible way.

The difference, mister man, is in how long the gases persist in the atmosphere.

Quote:

So why aren't climate scientists a lot more worried about water vapour than about CO2? The answer has to do with how long greenhouse gases persist in the atmosphere. For water, the average is just a few days.

This rapid turnover means that even if human activity was directly adding or removing significant amounts of water vapour (it isn't), there would be no slow build-up of water vapour as is happening with CO2.

The level of water vapour in the atmosphere is determined mainly by temperature, and any excess is rapidly lost. The level of CO2 is determined by the balance between sources and sinks, and it would take hundreds of years for it to return to pre-industrials levels even if all emissions ceased tomorrow.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11652

VisitorQ wrote:

For the millionth time, none of this proves that it is human caused.

Ah. So you just contradicted yourself again. You now admit that the ice caps are melting, yet earlier you claimed

VisitorQ wrote:

It is an obscene hoax, the biggest the world has ever seen. Showing the public a bunch of laughable pictures of supposedly "stranded" polar bears (which can swim many miles) to appeal to peoples' emotions, and footage of a few ice sheets falling into the ocean (a totally natural occurrence).

Quote:

VisitorQ wrote:

the global elite want to put a tax on life itself (CO2)

Julius wrote:

If you want to enjoy this "essence of life", you could always try breathing it for a few minutes. You'd be dead

Tell that to the plant life on the earth, genius. See how far you get without plants.

So you've actually admitted that humans are co-dependent on other species for their continued survival?
Thats a massive step for you. Well done. You're beginning to get it. So now do you agree we should stop clearing rainforest as it is giving us oxygen to breathe?

Quote:

Julius wrote:

VisitorQ wrote:

Pretty much the entire economy could be taxed at will, as much as the government chooses

Not only are you wrong (and a blithering know-nothing when it comes to economics), but taxes are not spent wisely. You post some of the least thought out things I've ever read.

Taxes have been with us since the Romans by the way. They're not a new modern conspiracy.
They are what pays for the police force (to keep law and order), the army (to defend you from enemies), the wste disposal (to remove all the garbage you produce), the hospitals (to fix you when you are sick).

How is that "not spending taxes wisely"?

Quote:

Try doubling these taxes. Or tripling them.

That has already happened continuously for centuries.
Taxes go up. The economy adjusts. Its called inflation.
If this natural process did not ocurr, you would still be paying
$200 for a brand new Ford.

Quote:

People would not accept it (or accept their standard of living being taken from them) unless they were lied and made to believe they're spending money for a "noble" cause, like saving the earth

It is only your irrational/imaginary fear that the money would be wasted.
it is only your irrational/imaginary fear that unbearably high taxes would be set.

So you've built a massive pyramid of imaginary scenarios, populated by millions of evil people fictionalising data and conspiring against you, based on your one biggest fear: that taxes will go up.
You can't win an argument based on irrational fears. Sorry. You need to start with facts, not conspiracy theory.

The fact is that our earth is incredibly polluted and damaged by two centuries of industrialization, and restoring our ecosystems back to a healthy state should be our high priority. If you can't see this you need a lobotomy.

visitorq

Joined: 11 Jan 2008

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:18 am Post subject:

Privateer wrote:

I agree, but collective action does not mean giving more tax money and power to the government to keep the evil corporations at bay. In fact it is the merger between state and corporate power (corporatism) that needs to be stopped. Large companies are not inevitably bad. It is only through forging a partnership with government, which uses its power to benefit the largest corporations (banks especially), that cartels and monopolies are formed. The best example of this is the Federal Reserve central bank.

Governments are necessary to uphold the law, but too much power results in corruption, and the elite putting themselves above the law. Curbing government power to the bare minimum is the most obvious solution.

Quote:

And the public is not 'dumbed down'; the public is heavily propagandized and issues are purposely clouded.

Actually it's both. The average American (and Brit) now watches around 5 hours of TV per day... which is enough to put pretty much anyone into a trance (and is thought to even lower IQ).

Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:47 am Post subject:

Hold on freak.
U don't get away with all your demented BS that easily.

Visitor Q wrote:

Julius wrote:

Does your leaked email mean that the sailor of the canoe below is lying?

Is he in on the conspiracy, pretending to see masses of floating garbage?

Sensationalist journalism.

VisitorQ wrote:

I don't wave away actual, compelling evidence

Lets test that claim.

http://animalstarexclusive.blogspot.com/2010/09/north-pacific-trash-gyre-north-pacific.html
http://www.themagicsnorkel.com/cbs-magic-blogchristopher-bartlett/219-oceanic-garbage-soup-trash-trwaling-in-the-pacific http://biophilism.blogspot.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_rzmNtb6ZU&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxNqzAHGXvs&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnUjTHB1lvM
.

visitorq

Joined: 11 Jan 2008

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:11 am Post subject:

Quote:

I'm not even going to take the time to click on any of your trash. Keep your "magic snorkel" and "animal star" rubbish to yourself, please. If you think anyone is interested in your tabloid version of reality, you are mistaken. I couldn't be less convinced if 'bat boy' himself had written it.

Julius wrote:

Hold on freak.
U don't get away with all your demented BS that easily.

Excuse me? Okay, now you're getting very creepy.... Please realize that if I don't take the time to reply to each one of your blithering-stupidity-filled posts, it doesn't mean you have to follow up and 'provoke' me into replying again. It means you should take the hint. But if you still don't get it, let me to spell it out for you: I have zero respect for anything you've said, I see no point in continuing a futile pissing match (fun as it was while it lasted Rolling Eyes

), and I do not wish to engage with you anymore from here. Thanks in advance.

Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:48 am Post subject:

VisitorQ has left the room. I wonder why that is? Rolling Eyes

visitorq wrote:

Quote:

Julius wrote:

Hold on freak.
U don't get away with all your demented BS that easily.

), and I do not wish to engage with you anymore from here. Thanks in advance.

...don't worry- Al Gore grants tax exemption to the mentally deficient.

visitorq

Joined: 11 Jan 2008

Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:26 am Post subject:

"CERN 'gags' physicists in cosmic ray climate experiment"

Quote:

The chief of the world's leading physics lab at CERN in Geneva has prohibited scientists from drawing conclusions from a major experiment. The CLOUD ("Cosmics Leaving Outdoor Droplets") experiment examines the role that energetic particles from deep space play in cloud formation. CLOUD uses CERN's proton synchrotron to examine nucleation.

CERN Director General Rolf-Dieter Heuer told Welt Online that the scientists should refrain from drawing conclusions from the latest experiment.

"I have asked the colleagues to present the results clearly, but not to interpret them," reports veteran science editor Nigel Calder on his blog. Why?

Because, Heuer says, "That would go immediately into the highly political arena of the climate change debate. One has to make clear that cosmic radiation is only one of many parameters."

The unusual "gagging order" could have been issued because the results of CLOUD are really, really boring, muses Calder. Or, it could be that the experiment invites a politically unacceptable hypothesis on climate.

The CLOUD experiment builds on earlier experiments by Danish physicist Henrik Svensmark, who demonstrated that cosmic rays provide a seed for clouds. Tiny changes in the earth's cloud cover could account for variations in temperature of several degrees. The amount of Ultra Fine Condensation Nuclei (UFCN) material depends on the quantity of the background drizzle of rays, which varies depending on the strength of the sun's magnetic field and the strength of the Earth's magnetic field.

But how much? Speaking at a private event attended by El Reg earlier this year, Svensmark, who has nothing to do with CLOUD, wouldn't be drawn. He said he thought it was one of four significant factors: man-made factors, volcanoes, a "regime shift" in the mid-'70s, and cosmic rays.

The quantity of cosmic rays therefore has an influence on climate, but this isn't factored into the IPCC's "consensus" science at all.

According to Calder:

"CERN has joined a long line of lesser institutions obliged to remain politically correct about the man-made global warming hypothesis. It's OK to enter 'the highly political arena of the climate change debate' provided your results endorse man-made warming, but not if they support Svensmark's heresy that the Sun alters the climate by influencing the cosmic ray influx and cloud formation."

Let's hope he's been misquoted. The precedents aren't happy.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/07/18/cern_cosmic_ray_gag/

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