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Steelrails
Joined: 12 Mar 2009
Location: Earth, Solar System
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 Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:56 am Post subject: |
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Note in the article it said Chinese-Australians were the ones raising the outrage, it wasn't noticed by the general public. Same with the whitewashing in the movie 21, Fast & Furious, and a host of other movies.
How many millions out there still watch 'Breakfast at Tiffany's' in spite of Mickey Rooney, or enjoy old Charlie Chan films. How many go and watch The King & I, The Mikado, Miss Saigon, etc. with white casts in Asian costumes and don't even realize it?
And while many of those roles may not be dehumanizing at the level Gag Concert was, they do reinforce stereotypes and are considered by many Asians to be offensive portrayals. But one thing is that many people watching those things are completely unaware that it's offensive.
That's the parallel between Madame Butterfly and Gag Concert. It's not about which is worse (Gag Concert is) or the exact style, but the similar levels of unawareness in the audience.
If you tried to ban Madame Butterfly or The King & I or Breakfast at Tiffany's there would be a huge outcry as millions of fans would be unwilling to see such things consigned to the racist ash heap of history, such as with 'Song of the South'.
So while the Korean show and audience need a lesson in tolerance, its important to remember how often we do the same thing without realizing it and the possibility is that they see those things and think since we do it to them, its okay for them to do it to us. |
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metalhead
Joined: 18 May 2010
Location: Toilet
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| Blacks are the holy grail of race that's why - it's definitely more acceptable to make fun of Asians or whites than it is to make fun of blacks. But yeah, a lot of white people are on some weird crusade to defend blacks at all costs and get upset and 'offended' when a black person gets insulted, it's pretty ridiculous as it reeks of 'white man to the rescue yet again' - I guess they don't get that upset when Asians get insulted as they figure Asians can handle themselves? That's what it implies at least. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:06 am Post subject: |
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| metalhead wrote: |
| Blacks are the holy grail of race that's why - it's definitely more acceptable to make fun of Asians or whites than it is to make fun of blacks. But yeah, a lot of white people are on some weird crusade to defend blacks at all costs and get upset and 'offended' when a black person gets insulted, it's pretty ridiculous as it reeks of 'white man to the rescue yet again' - I guess they don't get that upset when Asians get insulted as they figure Asians can handle themselves? That's what it implies at least. |
Yes, you would say that because you are from 'zaff ifrrika man' and the last time you conversed with a black person was with a sjambok in your hand on the farm hey?  |
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cam83
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:07 am Post subject: |
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| Steelrails wrote: |
Note in the article it said Chinese-Australians were the ones raising the outrage, it wasn't noticed by the general public. Same with the whitewashing in the movie 21, Fast & Furious, and a host of other movies.
How many millions out there still watch 'Breakfast at Tiffany's' in spite of Mickey Rooney, or enjoy old Charlie Chan films. How many go and watch The King & I, The Mikado, Miss Saigon, etc. with white casts in Asian costumes and don't even realize it?
And while many of those roles may not be dehumanizing at the level Gag Concert was, they do reinforce stereotypes and are considered by many Asians to be offensive portrayals. But one thing is that many people watching those things are completely unaware that it's offensive.
That's the parallel between Madame Butterfly and Gag Concert. It's not about which is worse (Gag Concert is) or the exact style, but the similar levels of unawareness in the audience.
If you tried to ban Madame Butterfly or The King & I or Breakfast at Tiffany's there would be a huge outcry as millions of fans would be unwilling to see such things consigned to the racist ash heap of history, such as with 'Song of the South'.
So while the Korean show and audience need a lesson in tolerance, its important to remember how often we do the same thing without realizing it and the possibility is that they see those things and think since we do it to them, its okay for them to do it to us. |
The reason I suggested you to boost the "Frozen" thread was bcos that thread is focused precisely on what you want to discuss..... besides yourself, who else in the entire 10 pages has brought up cultural appropriation? No-one, bcos whilst they are related topics, it isn't the topic of discussion.
You are comparing cultural appropriation and diversity in movies, with the OP which is about the dehumanizing of a particular race. Why would you even attempt to do that? |
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cmxc
Joined: 19 May 2008
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jazzmaster
Joined: 30 Sep 2013
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:08 am Post subject: |
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| Fox wrote: |
| jazzmaster wrote: |
blah blah bloody blah |
Yes, yes, I already know your thoughts on the matter. You've made yourself clear. Repeatedly.
You want attention, well for the moment you've got it. Why do you want attention from someone for whom you clearly have no respect? Why am I worth your time and effort if I'm so horrible? |
You really are a conceited, self centered ballsack. Your posts are all over this forum like genital warts. My posts here, and my posts on the gay thread, show that you are a pompous, hypocritical twit.
My posts aren't designed to get your attention. They are designed to highlight how out of touch you are with reality, so that other posters can see you for what you are.
You are the man who feels "lessened and degraded" by a gay pride parade you didn't even attend, and now you are telling a black man how he should feel about a comedy skit that dehumanizes his race.
I like letting people know these facts. Your attention is of lesser importance. |
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metalhead
Joined: 18 May 2010
Location: Toilet
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| robbie_davies wrote: |
| metalhead wrote: |
| Blacks are the holy grail of race that's why - it's definitely more acceptable to make fun of Asians or whites than it is to make fun of blacks. But yeah, a lot of white people are on some weird crusade to defend blacks at all costs and get upset and 'offended' when a black person gets insulted, it's pretty ridiculous as it reeks of 'white man to the rescue yet again' - I guess they don't get that upset when Asians get insulted as they figure Asians can handle themselves? That's what it implies at least. |
Yes, you would say that because you are from 'zaff ifrrika man' and the last time you conversed with a black person was with a sjambok in your hand on the farm hey? |
Not even close my friend, but believe what you will. |
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Fox
Joined: 04 Mar 2009
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| jazzmaster wrote: |
blah blah blah
My posts aren't designed to get your attention.
blah blah blah
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I'm more than a little suspicious of this suggestion given that posts which contain little more than an accusation, and insult, and a Youtube video clip aren't really informing anyone of anything, and repeated posts in the same thread which don't express anything new clearly don't inform anyone of anything new, but you know what? I'll take your word for it. Given that, there's no real reason for me to bother reading anything you write ever again, is there? I always feel a little bit awkward ignoring posts directed at me, but you just explicitly told me they're for other posters, not to get my attention. I'm glad we could work this out so amicably. Have a nice life fellow, and enjoy talking about me. |
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cam83
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 3:37 am Post subject: |
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| robbie_davies wrote: |
| metalhead wrote: |
| Blacks are the holy grail of race that's why - it's definitely more acceptable to make fun of Asians or whites than it is to make fun of blacks. But yeah, a lot of white people are on some weird crusade to defend blacks at all costs and get upset and 'offended' when a black person gets insulted, it's pretty ridiculous as it reeks of 'white man to the rescue yet again' - I guess they don't get that upset when Asians get insulted as they figure Asians can handle themselves? That's what it implies at least. |
Yes, you would say that because you are from 'zaff ifrrika man' and the last time you conversed with a black person was with a sjambok in your hand on the farm hey? |
Hahaha! OMG! Metalhead, that was the forum equivalent of pouring gasoline over your head and setting yourself on fire so that someone might take you seriously - I can only assume that you've been drinking tonight, if not, this post is magic  |
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Hokie21
Joined: 01 Mar 2011
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:14 am Post subject: |
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| jazzmaster wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
| robbie_davies wrote: |
| Steelrails wrote: |
I have no problem with black folks being offended by blackface in Korea.
What I want an answer to, and am not getting, is is it okay for non-Asians to dress up as Asians and do The King & I or Madame Butterfly or Miss Saigon or whatever or dress up in some kung fu suit and run around doing a bunch of ridiculous chop socky moves to get a laugh? |
It is wrong, but when did a white man last play the King of Siam?
1958? |
A quick google brought this up-
http://www.qpac.com.au/event/king_and_i_14.aspx#.U8eWYZSSwc4
Here we have Madame Butterfly
http://sfopera.com/Season-Tickets/2013-14-Season/Madame-Butterfly.aspx
And all the time in smaller productions. Normally the REALLY big time productions do feature Asian cast members, but when you to something in Kansas City, you start getting white performers portraying Asians.
Funny, people don't really seem too up in arms about them. |
It depends on the part they are playing. Do the white people playing Asians paint their skin yellow, tape their eyes slanty, and pretend to be animals?
In the links you provided the answer is no.
In a particularly dreadful comedy in the UK a white man dresses up as an Asian and is duly criticized for it. He slants his eyes and mispronounces his l and r. But he stops short of anything else. Is this acceptable behaviour? In my opinion, no. It's the cheapest type of laugh a comedian can get. In the show the main character, who is an elderly woman, is played by a man. Perhaps that indicates how low brow the show is.
In the video discussed in the OP the Korean actress starts shouting "ooga, booga" in a way that can be described as animalistic. It's a deliberate attempt to dehumanize a race of people. I can't think of any recent incidences of someone dressing up as an Asian and acting with the intent to show Asians as less evolved animals. Particularly incidences funded by the government. If they do exist then I hope that people roundly condemn them, the same way I would expect people to condemn the video in the OP. And I wouldn't dream of going onto the internet and criticizing Asians for being upset about a skit deliberately meant to not only demean, but to dehumanize them. |
+1 IF SR can't tell the difference between these two things....well... |
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Stu_miller
Joined: 23 Apr 2014
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:40 am Post subject: |
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In comparison to the blackface sketch, I would be very interested to hear people's point of view on the use of the word "nigger" in comedy. I've heard countless top comedians, both black and non-black, use the word frequently in their sets, without receiving the same criticism that this blackface sketch has, if any.
Racism is as much about intention as anything else, I would suggest. So when Chris Rock makes jokes about the different types of nigger, we laugh because it's observational, funny (subjectively), and based on truth. In fact, almost all good comedy (subjectively) is based on fact, or at least stereotypes, which themselves originate from some basis in truth. Chris Rock's intention, presumably, isn't to belittle or debase black people; most likely it is formed from his honest observations, exaggerated and carved in such a way as to make people laugh. Would anyone call him racist? Or Louis CK, a white guy, who also has no problem using the word in his comedy? Is he being racist? No, because comedy, by its very nature, is not intended to be taken seriously.
It is my opinion that people should never be offended by comedy, although it is undoubtedly their right to do so. What they should be offended by, if anything, is what informed the comedy in the first place: be it daily observations or societal beliefs and stereotypes. Blackface is clearly borne out of ignorance; ignorance which is understandable given Korean history and homogeny, but which one hopes will, after time and increased exposure to different cultures, be converted into awareness.
Actually, I think the difference between Louis CK (or other similar comedians) and Korean blackface is based on this: awareness. The former is fully aware of the history and implications of his words, but he jokes about it in a way based in truth. The latter clearly stems from ignorance and a lack of empathy (given the examples that people have given about Koreans reacting to themselves being targeted in a similar way). Korea is very new in its history to being exposed to different people and cultures and we should hope they will become more aware. However, we mustn't forget that countries like the UK and US, which have been multicultural and multiracial for a long, long time, have arguably just as many problems with ignorance and racism, although generally more introverted and subtle. In both cases, I believe comedy can make any jokes that it likes, because it's not comedy's job or duty to "correct" the ways of its society. It reflects society's opinions, it doesn't create them. Be offended by society, not by comedy.
(Congrats if you got the the end of this post. I got a bit carried away there but I hope there are some valid points in there somewhere!) |
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Mix1
Joined: 08 May 2007
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:25 am Post subject: |
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| Stu_miller wrote: |
Be offended by society, not by comedy.
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Comedy is a reflection of society.
If a society finds ridiculing other races funny, it will be called "comedy".
Just saying something is "comedy" does not grant it an automatic free pass from criticism. Look at the actions within this "comedy". The "comedians" paint themselves black and then act animalistic and primitive (and the audience eats it up). It's dehumanization and ridicule. Huge difference between that and a Chris Rock or Louis CK skit, which basically examine race in society.
As far as using ignorance as an excuse, it's hard to know if Koreans simply don't realize they are being offensive, or simply don't care. Either way, the effect is almost the same. |
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Stu_miller
Joined: 23 Apr 2014
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| Mix1 wrote: |
| Stu_miller wrote: |
Be offended by society, not by comedy.
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Comedy is a reflection of society.
If a society finds ridiculing other races funny, it will be called "comedy".
Just saying something is "comedy" does not grant it an automatic free pass from criticism. Look at the actions within this "comedy". The "comedians" paint themselves black and then act animalistic and primitive (and the audience eats it up). It's dehumanization and ridicule. Huge difference between that and a Chris Rock or Louis CK skit, which basically examine race in society.
As far as using ignorance as an excuse, it's hard to know if Koreans simply don't realize they are being offensive, or simply don't care. Either way, the effect is almost the same. |
You ignored the fact that I said exactly this at the end of my last main paragraph. Fair enough, it was a lot of words to read.
The whole point is that I'm differentiating comedy in a comedy setting as opposed to a political leader's speech or something said with a serious motive.
If you read the words of Chris Rock or Louis CK without knowing the comedic context, the same people would be infinitely more offended. I repeat, comedy should never be taken seriously; could it be any more obvious within the name? Actually, being comedy does give it a free pass BUT then it is up to that society to judge and act. If people laugh and largely agree, then there will be a positive reaction and "bums on seats". If people are largely offended or just don't find it funny, then that will also be obvious. There is a huge distinction to be made between comedy and real life. |
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robbie_davies
Joined: 16 Jun 2013
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:54 am Post subject: |
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| Stu_miller wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| Stu_miller wrote: |
Be offended by society, not by comedy.
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Comedy is a reflection of society.
If a society finds ridiculing other races funny, it will be called "comedy".
Just saying something is "comedy" does not grant it an automatic free pass from criticism. Look at the actions within this "comedy". The "comedians" paint themselves black and then act animalistic and primitive (and the audience eats it up). It's dehumanization and ridicule. Huge difference between that and a Chris Rock or Louis CK skit, which basically examine race in society.
As far as using ignorance as an excuse, it's hard to know if Koreans simply don't realize they are being offensive, or simply don't care. Either way, the effect is almost the same. |
You ignored the fact that I said exactly this at the end of my last main paragraph. Fair enough, it was a lot of words to read.
The whole point is that I'm differentiating comedy in a comedy setting as opposed to a political leader's speech or something said with a serious motive.
If you read the words of Chris Rock or Louis CK without knowing the comedic context, the same people would be infinitely more offended. I repeat, comedy should never be taken seriously; could it be any more obvious within the name? Actually, being comedy does give it a free pass BUT then it is up to that society to judge and act. If people laugh and largely agree, then there will be a positive reaction and "bums on seats". If people are largely offended or just don't find it funny, then that will also be obvious. There is a huge distinction to be made between comedy and real life. |
Agreed, and your first post was excellent also.
It is all about context, comedy is context. The context of the Korean skit is that black people are subhuman. |
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cam83
Joined: 27 Jan 2013
Location: Seoul, South Korea
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| Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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| robbie_davies wrote: |
| Stu_miller wrote: |
| Mix1 wrote: |
| Stu_miller wrote: |
Be offended by society, not by comedy.
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Comedy is a reflection of society.
If a society finds ridiculing other races funny, it will be called "comedy".
Just saying something is "comedy" does not grant it an automatic free pass from criticism. Look at the actions within this "comedy". The "comedians" paint themselves black and then act animalistic and primitive (and the audience eats it up). It's dehumanization and ridicule. Huge difference between that and a Chris Rock or Louis CK skit, which basically examine race in society.
As far as using ignorance as an excuse, it's hard to know if Koreans simply don't realize they are being offensive, or simply don't care. Either way, the effect is almost the same. |
You ignored the fact that I said exactly this at the end of my last main paragraph. Fair enough, it was a lot of words to read.
The whole point is that I'm differentiating comedy in a comedy setting as opposed to a political leader's speech or something said with a serious motive.
If you read the words of Chris Rock or Louis CK without knowing the comedic context, the same people would be infinitely more offended. I repeat, comedy should never be taken seriously; could it be any more obvious within the name? Actually, being comedy does give it a free pass BUT then it is up to that society to judge and act. If people laugh and largely agree, then there will be a positive reaction and "bums on seats". If people are largely offended or just don't find it funny, then that will also be obvious. There is a huge distinction to be made between comedy and real life. |
Agreed, and your first post was excellent also.
It is all about context, comedy is context. The context of the Korean skit is that black people are subhuman. |
Plus... how many non-black comedians actually use the term? I can't think of many. Louis CK used it once (in a very careful/smart way - probably after consulting with Chris Rock tbh) but I can't think of any others. |
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