|
Korean Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
just alittlecrazy
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
|
 Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 8:53 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| ddeubel wrote: |
| Quote: |
| if hamas is so well respected why are so many palestinians trying to leave gaza? why can hamas not control its own militia? why are hamas gunmen shooting fellow palestinians? |
Same can be said about Fatah. Just that we don't hear too much about it. This was a tit for tat thing and you are wrong for solely vilifying Hamas on this count.
|
these were questions, not a statement of vilification. i agree that fatah also behaves in a similar manner and both should be vilified on these matters. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
just alittlecrazy
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ddeubel wrote: |
| Quote: |
| "the legitimacy of governments", glad you raised that point. what legitimate government holds hostages? hamas still holds an israeli hostage as a bargaining chip. a legitimate government, wasn't fatah was part of it until the hamas coup. hamas doesn't recognise democracy. |
And what of all the hostages, the thousands in Israeli prisons? They are not criminals, they are political prisoners and have been recognized as such by international organizations. "Political prisoners" not charged and just another term for "hostage". So what is your point? Again, I don't condone this but stop vilifying without looking at the dynamics and the other sides equal barbarity.
DD |
| Quote: |
A hostage is a person or entity which is held by a captor, originally handed over by one of two belligerent parties to the other or seized as security for the carrying out of an agreement, or as a preventive measure against certain acts of war
|
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostage
| Quote: |
| International humanitarian law absolutely prohibits taking and holding a person by force in order to compel the enemy to meet certain demands, while threatening to harm or kill the person if the demands are not met. Furthermore, hostage-taking is considered a war crime and all those involved bear individual criminal liability. |
http://www.btselem.org/english/Press_Releases/20070625.asp
| Quote: |
A political prisoner is someone held in prison or otherwise detained, perhaps under house arrest, because their ideas or image are deemed by a government to either challenge or threaten the authority of the state. It may be a prisoner of conscience, deprived of freedom of speech.
In many cases, political prisoners are imprisoned with no legal veneer directly through extrajudicial processes. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_prisoner
just so you understand the difference between a hostage and a political prisoner. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
just alittlecrazy
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
just to be clear, i'm not a fatah supporter. nor do i support all the actions taken by israel. both sides have exercised poor judgment and committed violent actions.
however i do support any group that makes moves to end the conflict peacefully and acknowledges the right of the two states to coexist, in peace. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
just alittlecrazy
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ddeubel wrote: |
| Quote: |
| when egypt entered into peace negotiations with israel they got what they wanted and so did israel. yes sadat was killed and rabin was later killed for pursuing negotiations with the palestinains. these were men brave enough to face political suicide, better men than those who send child suicide bombers to continue the bloodshed. |
I won't enter into an arguement whether Sadat was a brave man or not. I must say though, he certainly was a "rich" man and that you are overstating tired logic in saying he was killed for signing the Camp David accords (or is that what you are saying? please clarify?). Sadat was killed by Egyptians who were using Fatwa as a political tool - basically as a means of rallying people against the abuses of Sadat's brutal regime and in particular the very glaring inequalities. He brutally repressed political expression and especially the Brotherhood and paid the price for crossing this line. It was not because of his making peace with Israel.
DD |
you said it would be political suicide for a palestinian group to recognize israel. i was pointing out the other politicians have and are willing to take that, and greater risks, in the pursuit of peace.
re sadat: his peace negotations contributed to his assissination.
| Quote: |
On October 6, 1981, the month after the crackdown, Sadat was assassinated during the annual 6th October victory parade in Cairo. The assassination was carried out by members of the Egyptian Islamic Jihad organization who had infiltrated the Egyptian Army. They opposed Sadat's negotiations with Israel, as well as his use of force in the September crackdown.
A fatwa approving the assassination had been obtained from Omar Abdel-Rahman, a cleric later convicted in the U.S. for his role in the February 26, 1993 World Trade Center Bombing. |
and was political suicide in regards to egypt�s relationship with other arab states:
| Quote: |
In 1978, this resulted in the Camp David Peace Agreement, for which Sadat and Begin received the Nobel Peace Prize. However, the action was extremely unpopular in the Arab World and the wider Muslim World. Egypt was the most powerful Arab state and an icon of Arab nationalism. Many hopes were placed on Egypt to help extract concessions from Israel for the displaced Palestinians and others in the Arab World. By signing the accords, Sadat left all the other Arab states (who were reluctant to engage into such d�tente politics towards Israel) hanging by themselves, and steered Egypt towards a strategic relationship with the U.S. This was seen as a betrayal of his predecessor Nasser's pan-Arabism, destroying visions of a united Arab front and elimination of the Zionist Entity.
In 1979, the Arab League suspended Egypt's membership in the wake of Egypt's peace agreement with Israel; the League moved its headquarters from Cairo to Tunis. It was not until 1989 that the League re-admitted Egypt as a member, and returned its headquarters to Cairo. Many believed that only a threat of force would make Israel negotiate over the West Bank and Gaza Strip, and the Camp David accords removed the possibility of Egypt, the major Arab military power, from providing such a threat. As part of the peace deal, Israel withdrew from the Sinai peninsula in phases, returning the entire area to Egypt on April 25th, 1982. |
[url]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_Sadat[/url]
why are you so arrogant to suggest that people are ignorant or uneducated when they do not address every possible detail in a short posting? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| I do tend to favor any group that has given away two thirds of their total territory in order to gain peace. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
just alittlecrazy
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 1:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cbclark4 wrote: |
| I do tend to favor any group that has given away two thirds of their total territory in order to gain peace. |
israel has always said it would give up land in return for peace. although returning to pre-1967 borders isn't realistic. giving up the old city in jerusalem and the western wall just won't happen. there needs to be some compromise such as west jerusalem as the israeli capital, east jerusalem as the palestinian capital and the old city under joint custodianship perhaps as an international city or world heritage site. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 2:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
just alittlecrazy,
I actually know a little about the conditions and events of that period. I also can state absolutely that the sole person actually captured at Sadat's assassination refered to Sadat as "zalim" or oppressor. All those involved were Islamic fundamentalists steeped in Salafist-Wahabi revolutionary doctrine. There was no indication in any of the thousands of pages of trial testimony to anything other than Sadat being an infidel and betraying the Koran. Abdul Al further insisted that it was Sadat's "corruption" that was the main reason he was killed. This was one eventuality that came out of Qutb's own demise. Sadat, made a lot of enemies and mostly for other reasons than the Camp David accords.
The difference you allude to between a hostage and a prisoner is purely of your own mental framework and oozes ethnocentrism. The difference only stands if there are legal frameworks by which the person captured can plead his/her innocence. Israel indefinitely keeps prisoners and doesn't even allow them prisoner of war status.
Let me rephrase my position about "political suicide" and the recognition of Israel. It would only be "political suicide" if some basic conditions are not granted in return. Same with Israel's present stance. They will not allow certain things to happen unless...... So we have a stalemate. they both have to agree. But a unilateral declaration by the Palestinians of recognizing Israel carte blanche, would be suicide to that government. A slap in the face of the suffering, death and humiliation they have undergone. do I think this stance is the right one ??? NO. I wish someone would declare Israel's right to exist and to exist as a nation. But I do understand the Palestinian mentality and do see that side and their own position and its rationale.
DD |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
just alittlecrazy
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:20 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ddeubel wrote: |
just alittlecrazy,
I actually know a little about the conditions and events of that period. I also can state absolutely that the sole person actually captured at Sadat's assassination refered to Sadat as "zalim" or oppressor. All those involved were Islamic fundamentalists steeped in Salafist-Wahabi revolutionary doctrine. There was no indication in any of the thousands of pages of trial testimony to anything other than Sadat being an infidel and betraying the Koran. Abdul Al further insisted that it was Sadat's "corruption" that was the main reason he was killed. This was one eventuality that came out of Qutb's own demise. Sadat, made a lot of enemies and mostly for other reasons than the Camp David accords. |
you're right, you do know a little. there were five assassins, one was killed and the four others were captured. so i don't know how you can absolutely state only one was captured.
| Quote: |
| five assassins ran toward the reviewing stand ... One was killed; others taken prisoner. |
actually none of the four refered to sadat by name
| Quote: |
| None of the assassins referred to Sadat by name. They called him the oppressor, the pharaoh, or the president. |
reference: Islamic Militant Cells and Sadat's Assassination
Lieutenant Commander Youssef H. Aboul-Enein, U.S. Navy
http://usacac.army.mil/CAC/milreview/English/JulAug04/indexjulaug04.asp
the peace with israel was not a direct reason but was a contributing factor, which showed sadats betrayal of islamic principles. if you truly do know about the conditions of the time you would also be fully aware of the islamic rhetoric regarding israel. yes, i do know something of the conditions and events of the time as i was living in israel at the time of the assassination and was in egypt 3 months later.
| Quote: |
The difference you allude to between a hostage and a prisoner is purely of your own mental framework and oozes ethnocentrism. The difference only stands if there are legal frameworks by which the person captured can plead his/her innocence. Israel indefinitely keeps prisoners and doesn't even allow them prisoner of war status.
|
again this remark oozes your arrogance. the difference stated (not alluded) is an internationally recognised difference. i suggest you check your own mental framework. while israel does hold prisoners it does so in prisons and allows access to them. it also releases prisoners on a semi-regular basis. it does not use them as part of peace negotiations.
| Quote: |
But I do understand the Palestinian mentality and do see that side and their own position and its rationale.
DD |
it is a shame that you only articulate this one sided view.
Last edited by just alittlecrazy on Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
just alittlecrazy
Joined: 30 Nov 2006
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| ddeubel wrote: |
I hope that others can see what has happened and how the Israeli strategy of creating divisiveness but most importantly somehow creating a "proxy" government is working. I get a kick out of all the latest Israeli pronouncements of "optimism" and "our Fatah allies". Such B.S. I wonder why Israel describes Hamas as a terrorist organization whereas Fatah gets a pass? Wasn't Fatah the leader of the intifada, with dozens of suicide bombers and carnage in Israel? Now they appear as allies, what???? Only reasoning is that Israel wants them under their own short leash.
DD |
why is the israeli approach to fatah BS? you expound such naivety in these matters.
the rhetoric used to describe the plo, fatah, hamas etc reflected the relationship between them and israel. while they engage in terrorism the israeli rhetoric reflects this but as relationships change so does the rhetoric. how can you foster new relations and have meaningful dialogue while still using the old expressions?
also you fail to mention that fatahs rhetoric has changed too.
BTW the expression is “keep them on a short leash” not “under their own short leash”. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 3:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
First, I'm glad you concede my point that Sadat's assassination had much more to do with his own treatment of political opponents and his own citizens and his own zealousness and less about his appeasement with Israel.
| Quote: |
ddeubel wrote:
I actually know a little about the conditions and events of that period. I also can state absolutely that the sole person actually captured at Sadat's assassination refered to Sadat as "zalim" or oppressor. All those involved were Islamic fundamentalists steeped in Salafist-Wahabi revolutionary doctrine. There was no indication in any of the thousands of pages of trial testimony to anything other than Sadat being an infidel and betraying the Koran. Abdul Al further insisted that it was Sadat's "corruption" that was the main reason he was killed. This was one eventuality that came out of Qutb's own demise. Sadat, made a lot of enemies and mostly for other reasons than the Camp David accords.
you're right, you do know a little. there were five assassins, one was killed and the four others were captured. so i don't know how you can absolutely state only one was captured. |
Yes, I am wrong. I had meant, the only one captured away from the reviewing stand/area, Hussein Muhammed.
| Quote: |
Quote:
The difference you allude to between a hostage and a prisoner is purely of your own mental framework and oozes ethnocentrism. The difference only stands if there are legal frameworks by which the person captured can plead his/her innocence. Israel indefinitely keeps prisoners and doesn't even allow them prisoner of war status.
again this remark oozes your arrogance. the difference stated (not alluded) is an internationally recognised difference. i suggest you check your own mental framework. while israel does hold prisoners it does so in prisons and allows access to them. it also releases prisoners on a semi-regular basis. it does not use them as part of peace negotiations. |
You can reference all the international framework/definitions you want. You show in your words to believe state sanctioned kidnapping as being "legal". This is garbage. Israeli "administrative detention" differs not one iota from hostage taking. The only difference is the status of "nation" and the numbers (thousands).
Access??? I can post lists and lists and also condemnations from AI and the U.N. on Israeli's own disrespect for the Charter on Human Rights. Many of these detainees, picked up and never charged, are held indefinitely and many, are not visited because Israel holds the right to grant such visitation and often times even if granted, because of its own tight network of controls, the family can't get the paperwork to voyage/see their loved one. Where is the difference with a hostage? Only that many more are held and for much longer time. Hostages do get released and they experience the same joy that many Palestinians, some of them children get when released from an "absurdism" where they can't protest their innocence. Get educated and I think it is you being naive.
It is precisely this day to day stuff that makes Peace such a hard thing to negotiate.
Good read in today's herald about this topic. I've mentioned over and over on this forum how different tactics are needed to fight Islamic extremists. We are just throwing fire on a fire. There is a way, we just like so many yahoos are making it , Us against Them, it is any thing but.
This was Sadat's shortcoming also, not bringing these groups into the political process and undertaking some of the items in the article below. The reason why men like Al Zawahiri grew there..... The American support of Israel's own "up yours" to the Palestinian government is also such a thing...
http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/07/04/opinion/edbrown.php
| Quote: |
The violent Hamas takeover of Gaza raises a troubling question: Did the experiment of using democracy to tame Islamists lead to unmitigated disaster?
Thus, the problem with using democracy as a tool for handling domestic differences is not that it fails but that it works far more slowly and uncertainly than policymakers can tolerate. As a long-term solution, there is probably no sounder approach than using democracy to incorporate Islamist movements as normal political actors. But until we find ourselves able and willing to work according to a long-term strategy, democracy will continue to disappoint - and occasionally even horrify us - with its results. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Johnston case 'exposes hypocrisy'
The head of the clan linked to the kidnapping of Alan Johnston, the BBC journalist, has criticised the outcry over his abduction saying it exposes double standards on the part of the international community.
Sheikh Saleh Dughmush, the head of the Dughmush clan, told Al Jazeera's Rageh Omaar: "The Israelis arrest people left, right and centre, using the excuse of terrorism.
"When one Westerner seems to be under threat, the whole world stops and pays attention."
Johnston's captors had declared themselves to be the Army of Islam, a previously little known group with links to the powerful Dughmush clan.
Johnston arrived in Jerusalem after being freed early on Wednesday from what he described as "an appalling experience, saying it was "an amazing thing to be free".
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/1166CB99-E5B6-4089-BA07-FBFF0FB56F60.htm |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:52 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Palestinian civil servants paid
Thousands of Palestinian civil servants have received their first full salaries in 17 months after Israel transferred $118 million to the new emergency government.
About 170,000 employees have received only part of their wages since March 2006 due to a Western economic boycott and Israel's refusal to hand over funds to a Hamas-led government.
Relieved Palestinians gathered at banks and cash machines across the West Bank and Gaza Strip on Wednesday morning to collect their money.
Many of them have run up sizeable debts over the past months and much of their salaries will go to paying these.
"This is the first time I received my complete salary in more than a year," Jasser Sbai, an agriculture ministry employee in the West Bank city of Ramallah, said.
"Unfortunately most of this salary will go to the electricity company and shops because I owe them too much," he added, surrounded by more than 50 Palestinians waiting to use the cash machine. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hamas urges Gaza residents to fight back against IDF raid
By Avi Issacharoff and Yuval Azoulay, Haaretz Correspondents and News Agencies
Hamas leader and deposed prime minister Ismail Haniyeh on Thursday condemned an Israel Defense Forces operation in which 11 Palestinians were killed in exchanges of fire in the Gaza Strip, and urged Palestinians to fight back.
"We assert that our people have the full right to defend themselves and to confront these aggressions," Haniyeh said.
A spokesman for the group's political rivals, Fatah, also condemned the operation.
Two IDF soldiers were lightly wounded in the clashes Thursday, one of the deadliest days of fighting since Hamas wrested control of Gaza weeks earlier.
Two IDF soldiers were lightly wounded in the fighting as gunmen fired rocket-propelled grenades at an army vehicle. At least 20 Palestinians were also hurt.
A Palestinian cameraman was seriously wounded while documenting the clashes, and though the origin of the gunfire cannot be confirmed, it was apparently IDF soldiers who fired repeatedly at him, while Al-Jazeera cameras documented the incident.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/878659.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
IDF kills senior Islamic Jihad militant in West Bank ambush
By Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondent, Haaretz Service and DPA
Israeli forces ambushed and killed a Palestinian militant in the West Bank town of Jenin late Sunday, Palestinian security and hospital officials said.
An Islamic Jihad spokesperson said the militant, Mohammed Nazal, 24, was one of its leaders.
An Israel Defense Forces spokesman confirmed that the army was operating in the area but could not give further details.
Earlier Sunday, Palestinian militants fired five Qassam rockets at the western Negev causing damage to a construction site on the campus of the Sapir College near Sderot, two days after IDF troops completed an operation in Gaza in which 11 militants were killed and eight rockets seized.
The Islamic Jihad posted a statement on a website
affiliated with the organization claiming responsibility for firing rockets from the Gaza Strip into southern Israel.
On Saturday, three Qassam rockets landed in the western Negev, causing no injuries or damage. In two other cases, IDF troops came under fire while moving along the fence separating Israel from the Gaza Strip. There were no injuries.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/879612.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cbclark4
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Location: Masan
|
| Posted: Sun Jul 08, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Arab League to visit Israel
Abdul-Ilah al-Khatib, Jordan's foreign minister, will visit Israel with his Egyptian counterpart [AP]
The Arab League is to send envoys to Israel for the first time to discuss an Arab peace initiative and how it might support the embattled Palestinian president.
Sunday's announcement by diplomats from both sides came as Israel's cabinet approved the release of 250 Palestinian prisoners to bolster Mahmoud Abbas in his power struggle with Hamas.
Jordan's foreign ministry said its minister, Abdul-Ilah al-Khatib and Egyptian counterpart Ahmed Aboul Gheit would arrive in Jerusalem on Thursday for talks with the Israeli prime minister and other senior officials.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/6B85ADE2-4D03-4E90-9AF7-8D1790278D34.htm |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
