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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
The adventurers revisionist history is quite stunning and more than a little ant-Semetic.
A well, the world is full of his "some of my good frieds ares Jews" types.
adventurer: Waht about Haj Amin al Husseini abd his realtionship to Arafat and the Nazis? |
The world is full of message board contrarians. Therefore, with no evidence, I've proved you're not a contrarian simply by mentioning that fact. Poof! Not a contrarian.
Also: Yes, there were/are a lot of anti-Semitic Arab politicians. Does that mean Israel is a peaceful, non-aggressive state? No. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| It means Israel is there, after winning several wars against tremendous odds, and the Islamic world is still braying "drive the Jews into the sea. Israel will do whatever it has to to survive and flourish. The Palestinians lost their right to "justice" ny idiotic intranigence over the last 60 years. |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:15 pm Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
The adventurers revisionist history is quite stunning and more than a little ant-Semetic.
A well, the world is full of his "some of my good frieds ares Jews" types.
adventurer: Waht about Haj Amin al Husseini abd his realtionship to Arafat and the Nazis? |
First off, Chaver, you mixed up two wars without admitting that. I don't admitting errors like about those Cape Breton teachers who got deported since I didn't have the facts on them.
Actually, what I am stating is what many historians in Yisrael/Israel are actually saying if you would read about them, but they say, unlike me, that what was done was necessary. For example, Benny Morris basically believes ethnic cleansing happened, but he felt it was necessary and inevitable for Israel to be a democratic state with a Jewish majority.
Haj Amin Al Husseini? What about him? He was working with the Nazis.
Did you know some Zionists also worked with the Nazis? Working the fascists, supporting fascism is wrong. You are attacking the fact that cooperating with the Nazis was bad because innocent Jews were being killed and also gentiles, but what about innocent Arabs who have been killed. Do they also not matter? I don't care for anyone who collaborates with fascists or racists no matter where they are from or their religion.
Israel has also, don't forget, shielded South Africa when it was an apartheid state, so that is similar to what Hajj Amin Al Husseini did.
Both the Arab and Jewish Semites have tons of mud and egg on their face just like all people in the world. We need to fix the problems. All are guilty.
Tauda... |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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adventurer:
The Stern Gang did make some deals with the Nazis. They got a few people out and the comlicated the lives of the Brits who were at that time actively backing the Arabs.
Ethcic cleansing has been done through all of recorded history but it is only since about the 1960s that is has fallen into disrepute.
The Israelis and the South Africans had a long history of assiting each other, The collaborated on the development of nukes (including likely 1 test)> SA said they destroyed their bombs around 5. As I heard it they were dismantled and shipped to Israel.
The SA Jews were some of the biggest and earliest supporters of Israel.
I just read this morning an estimate of 800,000 thousand Jews run out of Arab lands since 1947. That seems to bw larger than the number of refugees. Call it a trade off -thnic adjustment. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Adventurer wrote: |
| contrarian wrote: |
The adventurers revisionist history is quite stunning and more than a little ant-Semetic.
A well, the world is full of his "some of my good frieds ares Jews" types.
adventurer: Waht about Haj Amin al Husseini abd his realtionship to Arafat and the Nazis? |
First off, Chaver, you mixed up two wars without admitting that. I don't admitting errors like about those Cape Breton teachers who got deported since I didn't have the facts on them.
Actually, what I am stating is what many historians in Yisrael/Israel are actually saying if you would read about them, but they say, unlike me, that what was done was necessary. For example, Benny Morris basically believes ethnic cleansing happened, but he felt it was necessary and inevitable for Israel to be a democratic state with a Jewish majority.
Haj Amin Al Husseini? What about him? He was working with the Nazis.
Did you know some Zionists also worked with the Nazis? Working the fascists, supporting fascism is wrong. You are attacking the fact that cooperating with the Nazis was bad because innocent Jews were being killed and also gentiles, but what about innocent Arabs who have been killed. Do they also not matter? I don't care for anyone who collaborates with fascists or racists no matter where they are from or their religion.
Israel has also, don't forget, shielded South Africa when it was an apartheid state, so that is similar to what Hajj Amin Al Husseini did.
Both the Arab and Jewish Semites have tons of mud and egg on their face just like all people in the world. We need to fix the problems. All are guilty.
Tauda... |
Hajj Amin Al Husseini wasn't just someone who worked with the Nazis he was an indicted war criminal and a leading architect of the holocaust.
And in 1948 what was the intention of Israels enemies? To do the same or worse to the Jews of the area.
While some arabs have been successful in Israel one can be sure that if Israel enemies had been successful in 1948 that all the jews of the area would have been kicked out or cleansed.
This is the record of Hajj Amin al-Husseini
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There is overwhelming documentation of the role of Hajj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, as a leading instigator of Nazi mass murders.
For example, during UN Security Council discussions in 1947, the Nation Associates, which owned what is now The Nation magazine, presented photostats of letters written by Hajj Amin al-Husseini, proving his complicity in the murder of hundreds of thousands of Jews. The text of one such letter is posted below. |
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As demonstrated by the Mufti's appeal to the Hungarian Minister of Foreign Affairs, posted above, Hajj Amin was a fanatical enough Nazi - and a powerful enough Nazi - to instigate the murder of 400,000 Jews with a letter, according to The Nation Associates.
One letter written. 400,000 human beings dead. A terrible silence.
Or, to put it another way, at least one out of every 15 Jews killed in the Holocaust was killed with the top-level involvement of the Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Husseini. (This doesn't count all the other human beings he helped kill, such as the Serbs, Jews and 'Gypsies' slaughtered by his Waffen SS troops in Bosnia and Croatia.) |
http://emperors-clothes.com/docs/bakera.htm
No comparison.
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The Mufti's knowledge about the Holocaust while living in Nazi Germany has been debated with the Mufti himself denying any such knowledge after the war. Testimony presented at the Nuremberg trials, however, accused the Mufti of not only having knowledge about the holocaust but of also actively encouraging the initiation of extermination programs against European Jews. Adolf Eichmann's deputy Dieter Wisliceny testified during his war crimes trial in 1946 that ... "The Mufti was one of the initiators of the systematic extermination of European Jewry and had been a collaborator and adviser of Eichmann and Himmler in the execution of this plan... He was one of Eichmann�s best friends and had constantly incited him to accelerate the extermination measures. I heard him say, accompanied by Eichmann, he had visited incognito the gas chambers of Auschwitz."
When the Red Cross offered to mediate with Adolf Eichmann in a trade prisoner-of-war exchange involving the freeing of German citizens in exchange for 5,000 Jewish children being sent from Poland to the Theresienstadt concentration camp, Husseini directly intervened with Himmler and the exchange was cancelled.[8]
Among the sabotage al-Husayni organized was an attempted chemical warfare assault on the second largest and predominantly Jewish city in Palestine, Tel Aviv. Five parachutists were sent with a toxin to dump into the water system. The police caught the infiltrators in a cave near Jericho, and according to Jericho district police commander Fayiz Bey Idrissi, "The laboratory report stated that each container held enough poison to kill 25,000 people, and there were at least ten containers."[5].
In his memoirs after the war, Husayni noted that "Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problem in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the handling of its Jews. The answer I got was: 'The Jews are yours.'� |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:02 am Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
adventurer:
The Stern Gang did make some deals with the Nazis. They got a few people out and the comlicated the lives of the Brits who were at that time actively backing the Arabs.
Ethcic cleansing has been done through all of recorded history but it is only since about the 1960s that is has fallen into disrepute.
The Israelis and the South Africans had a long history of assiting each other, The collaborated on the development of nukes (including likely 1 test)> SA said they destroyed their bombs around 5. As I heard it they were dismantled and shipped to Israel.
The SA Jews were some of the biggest and earliest supporters of Israel.
I just read this morning an estimate of 800,000 thousand Jews run out of Arab lands since 1947. That seems to bw larger than the number of refugees. Call it a trade off -thnic adjustment. |
Contrarian, the post above appears to be much fairer and judicious in tone.... As far as Hajj Amin Husseini or Kilani in Iraq and their alliances with the Nazis that is, of course, repugnant. Anyone allied to fascists is committing a serious sin but that has been as you said by the Stern gang who spoke German, then there was Shamir's warm views regarding the Nazis and the list goes on and on. My point was Hajj Amin worked with the Nazis while they were killing not only Jews but also gentiles. Also, don't forget the British and French were enemies of the Germans so is it a surprise the Arabs cooperated with the Germans? Who were they going to turn to in Europe who could fight them? The Russians who were very weak?
He just thought of the ends - trying to help the Palestinians as he saw fit. The holocaust as you know including 5 million gentiles. They are also worthy of consideration among the 11 million who perished. I care for all who lost their lives. I understand why Israel cooperated with South Africa. They helped Israel in some ways that gave Israel advantages over the Arabs. But, South Africa was still a fascist, apartheid state, right?
You know the expression "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". Both the Arabs and Israelis have done that. Another example of this attitude is the Palestinian alliance with Saddam Hussein while not caring what happened to the Shiites or Kurds.
There is also debate in Jewish circles between the Left and the Zionists over the role of the Zionists in World War II and prior to it. I don't know if you are aware of the Havara agreement signed by the Nazis and the Zionist organization. Then there were the Kappos. The Zionists cooperated with various fascists to try to accomplish the goal of setting up Israel. The ends justified the means. The holocaust allowed for the creation of Israel. Most Jews were actually not Zionist. You do know that. There was a conversion process so to speak after the Shoah. The Left dominated. The Left is now much weaker in the Jewish communtiy though some do leave mainstream Zionists are leaning more towards the centre.
As far as the 800,000 Jews who left the Arab countries left after 1948.
The Palestinians had no role in what happened. The Palestinians were ethnic cleansed prior to that. You cannot fault the Palestinians for what
Israel has done. Now if you said well the Arab, Mizrahi, Sephardi Jews have the homes of those who fled in 1948 so compensation is not needed but Israel will help and resettling the refugees in the West Bank and Gaza and Jordan and maybe give some land from 1948 in exchange for keeping settlements then it would be logical for a final settlement because
Israel cannot accept those refugees and will not. It would destroy the Jewish character of the democratic state and that is why those people were made refugees in the first place so Israel could have a democracy where most people were Jewish. This is what modern Israeli historians are saying like Benny Morries. They admit what happened but know Israel cannot take the refugees.
This is about real politik... Either side pointing fingers won't come up with a solution or with a peace agreement. I liked your post... |
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Adventurer
Joined: 28 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:19 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee"]
Hajj Amin Al Husseini wasn't just someone who worked with the Nazis he was an indicted war criminal and a leading architect of the holocaust.
And in 1948 what was the intention of Israels enemies? To do the same or worse to the Jews of the area.
While some arabs have been successful in Israel one can be sure that if Israel enemies had been successful in 1948 that all the jews of the area would have been kicked out or cleansed.
[I think you need to put things in context. What was the intention of the Zionists? The Zionists intentions were to depopulate areas to be Israel so there would be a democratic Jewish state, so there was a plan to ethnic cleanse. The Zionists succeeded. Also, they wanted to expand to have as much of the territory as Chaim Weizman envisioned in 1919. What was proposed by the General Assembly was considered a first step. Jabotinsky and other older traditional Zionists couldn't accomplish their goals. They were too difficult. The adversaries were defeated but the Israeli side didn't quite have the power to do everything due to resistance and the world community and some Jewish resistance. The Zionists were not all uniformly behind the leadership in all its views.
I don't care for Hajj Amin Husseini or any of his ilk or any war criminals. The region has many war criminals on both sides and fascists. Whether it is the Mufti or fanatics who killed Jews as was done in Hebron in 1929 they will get their justice.
What were the intentions of the Arabs? To destroy the nascent Israeli state that was to have its Jewish citizens replace the Palestinians who lived there. Obviously, there would have been most probably mass killings of the Jews if they were defeated. That means ethnic cleansing. I cannot be sure that all the Jews would have been kicked out. That is possible. I am going based on history when I say maybe. Do you think that sectarian fighting is new in the region? In 1860 many Christians (10,000) were massacred but the Christians were not expelled to Europe. Using that as a guide map, many thousands of Jews would have been killed which is a serious matter. I prefer to stick with precedent and facts. Based on past sectarian massacres I will go with what I said.
You don't put that in context and you should.
Also, you need to put the Jews of that time in context to be fair to Jewry.
The Jewish people were not really looking to leave Europe; they were forced to do so by circumstances. They came to British Palestine which came to be known as Israel and you knew no matter if you were on the Left or the Right that you must carry a gun as a Jew because it was either to kill or be killed. They weren't going to ask you your religious affiliation and people just fled from the carnage of Europe. They weren't going to ask questions of the forces facing them and then shoot. We are talking about a scarred people who ended up uprooting another people after being uprooted themselves. This is the sad reality. It was, perhaps, inevitable. It was European politics dark side culminating with the problems we have today.
I understand why both sides did what they did..... I can also understand coming to peace and burying the past. |
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Joo Rip Gwa Rhhee
Joined: 25 May 2003
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| [I think you need to put things in context. What was the intention of the Zionists? The Zionists intentions were to depopulate areas to be Israel so there would be a democratic Jewish state, so there was a plan to ethnic cleanse. The Zionists succeeded. Also, they wanted to expand to have as much of the territory as Chaim Weizman envisioned in 1919. What was proposed by the General Assembly was considered a first step. Jabotinsky and other older traditional Zionists couldn't accomplish their goals. They were too difficult. The adversaries were defeated but the Israeli side didn't quite have the power to do everything due to resistance and the world community and some Jewish resistance. The Zionists were not all uniformly behind the leadership in all its views. |
But there are a million arabs in Israel , some of them are members of Israels government .
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| I don't care for Hajj Amin Husseini or any of his ilk or any war criminals. The region has many war criminals on both sides and fascists. Whether it is the Mufti or fanatics who killed Jews as was done in Hebron in 1929 they will get their justice. |
the only ones like Husseini were Assad , and Hussein.
| Quote: |
| What were the intentions of the Arabs? To destroy the nascent Israeli state that was to have its Jewish citizens replace the Palestinians who lived there. Obviously, there would have been most probably mass killings of the Jews if they were defeated. That means ethnic cleansing. I cannot be sure that all the Jews would have been kicked out. That is possible. I am going based on history when I say maybe. Do you think that sectarian fighting is new in the region? In 1860 many Christians (10,000) were massacred but the Christians were not expelled to Europe. Using that as a guide map, many thousands of Jews would have been killed which is a serious matter. I prefer to stick with precedent and facts. Based on past sectarian massacres I will go with what I said. |
Well it might very well have meant so, the Israelis unlike the Palestinian side had no where to go.
On more thing "Palestinian" only became a nationality after the 1967 war.
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Also, you need to put the Jews of that time in context to be fair to Jewry.
The Jewish people were not really looking to leave Europe; they were forced to do so by circumstances. They came to British Palestine which came to be known as Israel and you knew no matter if you were on the Left or the Right that you must carry a gun as a Jew because it was either to kill or be killed. They weren't going to ask you your religious affiliation and people just fled from the carnage of Europe. They weren't going to ask questions of the forces facing them and then shoot. We are talking about a scarred people who ended up uprooting another people after being uprooted themselves. This is the sad reality. It was, perhaps, inevitable. It was European politics dark side culminating with the problems we have today. |
Sure
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I understand why both sides did what they did..... I can also understand coming to peace and burying the past] |
You are 100% correct here. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 3:58 am Post subject: |
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adventurer:
Point. If I had to choose between a fascist and a hard socialist (Communist) i would choose fascists.
Point: Haj Amin was not only a fellow traveller in the holocaust he was one of the designers.
Point: Where do you think the Jews got the uranium to buld the bombs. Most of it came from South Africa.
Point: The Jews in the Arab countries are just as much real refugees, if not more, than were the Palestinians. They were also a downtrodden despised minority.
point: As Joo pints out the Jews have no place else to go.
point: And to really upset you, God gave the land to the Jews.
point: The Jews and the Palesinians will not live together they must live apart. Besides Resolution 192 on the right of return pnly includes those Palestinians who were alive in 1948/49.
point: Since they will not live together the must live apart, if that requires a form of aparhied then so be it.
The alternative is Armageddon. |
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ddeubel
Joined: 20 Jul 2005
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:22 am Post subject: |
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adventurer,
You shoulda just let this guy alone. You'd only end up getting yourself hoarse and dirty, if you know what I revisionistically mean. No balance and so into the mud it is....
Contrarian, go wash your hands. 3 times.
DD |
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Satori
Joined: 09 Dec 2005
Location: Above it all
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:22 am Post subject: |
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| point: And to really upset you, God gave the land to the Jews. |
This kind of invalidates everything else you have to say, it shows us you're completely potty. Anyone who believes the bible is legally binding real estate agreement simply can't be taken seriously in a political discussion. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 5:38 am Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
adventurer:
point: And to really upset you, God gave the land to the Jews.
point: Since they will not live together the must live apart, if that requires a form of aparhied then so be it.
The alternative is Armageddon. |
This is a joke, right? Please say it's a joke. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:33 am Post subject: |
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It seems to be unacceptable to some to have chosen sides.
Satori: I could care less about your lack of belief. I have mine and I act on it. Ignoring the religious component of the dispute is a fools paradise. As long as people continue to believe and act on it you are stick with it. There are millions who do.
DD: When you try English I may be able to figure out what you are saying.
jkelly: No joke. In the long run there are only two alternatives. Kepping the two peoples apart for perhaps 100 years or Armageddon. Think on it! Its uncomfortable but, as I see it, inevitbabel. |
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jkelly80
Joined: 13 Jun 2007
Location: you boys like mexico?
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 10:27 am Post subject: |
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| contrarian wrote: |
jkelly: No joke. In the long run there are only two alternatives. Kepping the two peoples apart for perhaps 100 years or Armageddon. Think on it! Its uncomfortable but, as I see it, inevitbabel. |
Although at first glance I'd think the term Armageddon is a little too strident, I'm willing to consider it. I was mainly referring to the claim that Israel was given to the Jews by God. |
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contrarian
Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Location: Nearly in NK
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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jkelley:
In my belief it was given to them by God. But even if I were wrong people still act on that premise so it can't be ignored. Muslims speak of the ummah or Muslim lands Jews speak of the rpmised land. |
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