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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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 Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:45 pm Post subject: |
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Pandas are evil. The mothers abandon their young. Col hearted, evil creatures.
Elephants dont mourn anything. Its a higher emotion beyond them. |
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Alyallen
Joined: 29 Mar 2004
Location: The 4th Greatest Place on Earth = Jeonju!!!
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| jinju wrote: |
Pandas are evil. The mothers abandon their young. Col hearted, evil creatures.
Elephants dont mourn anything. Its a higher emotion beyond them. |
Well...so do some human women. That doesn't make them all...
Ohhhh. Well, that line of logic makes some things you said in the past so much more interesting now. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Alyallen wrote: |
| jinju wrote: |
Pandas are evil. The mothers abandon their young. Col hearted, evil creatures.
Elephants dont mourn anything. Its a higher emotion beyond them. |
Well...so do some human women. That doesn't make them all...
Ohhhh. Well, that line of logic makes some things you said in the past so much more interesting now. |
Explain. Yes, SOME women do. But not as a rule. Pandas do it all the time. If there is a twin born, a panda will ALWAYS abandon one of the offspring. ALWAYS. Pandas are hardwired to be evil. I wish them extinction. |
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arjuna
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:59 pm Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| To get back to the main topic, there's no doubt that elephants have a physical, demonstrable reaction to the death of a comrade, but whether they understand those symptoms would be the key to deciding whether they are experience emotions. |
As I observe human beings, I see little evidence that they understand much of what happens in their bodies and minds. Most of the time, human "emotions" appear to be automatic programmed reactions to events. When something happens, one is supposed to feel this or that--that is the conditioning, the overwhelming thought pattern of humanity. So, one "feels" "grief" in response to this kind of event, "joy" in response to another, and so on. Even at this artificial level, are human beings really aware of their so-called emotions? As I observe them, the answer is almost always no.
On the other hand, I see neither confusion nor pretense in animal emotions. Are they aware of themselves? Most of them are probably not as aware as a human being when he is fully aware--although I have to reserve my judgement on that regarding whales.
"Do animals feel emotions?" -- Do you not see the monstrous hubris in this question--coming from beings that often behave like robots with a system-wide virus infection in their programming? |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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As I observe human beings, I see little evidence that they understand much of what happens in their bodies and minds. Most of the time, human "emotions" appear to be automatic programmed reactions to events. When something happens, one is supposed to feel this or that--that is the conditioning, the overwhelming thought pattern of humanity. So, one "feels" "grief" in response to this kind of event, "joy" in response to another, and so on. Even at this artificial level, are human beings really aware of their so-called emotions? As I observe them, the answer is almost always no.
On the other hand, I see neither confusion nor pretense in animal emotions. Are they aware of themselves? Most of them are probably not as aware as a human being when he is fully aware--although I have to reserve my judgement on that regarding whales.
"Do animals feel emotions?" -- Do you not see the monstrous hubris in this question--coming from beings that often behave like robots with a system-wide virus infection in their programming?
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Posts like this (and sorry about the generalization) show me just how often people are duped by "animals are the same as humans". At the very least, it's clear that you're unable to differentiate between (and grasp the implications of saying)"robotic humans" and "enlightened animals" |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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| khyber wrote: |
| Quote: |
As I observe human beings, I see little evidence that they understand much of what happens in their bodies and minds. Most of the time, human "emotions" appear to be automatic programmed reactions to events. When something happens, one is supposed to feel this or that--that is the conditioning, the overwhelming thought pattern of humanity. So, one "feels" "grief" in response to this kind of event, "joy" in response to another, and so on. Even at this artificial level, are human beings really aware of their so-called emotions? As I observe them, the answer is almost always no.
On the other hand, I see neither confusion nor pretense in animal emotions. Are they aware of themselves? Most of them are probably not as aware as a human being when he is fully aware--although I have to reserve my judgement on that regarding whales.
"Do animals feel emotions?" -- Do you not see the monstrous hubris in this question--coming from beings that often behave like robots with a system-wide virus infection in their programming?
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Posts like this (and sorry about the generalization) show me just how often people are duped by "animals are the same as humans". At the very least, it's clear that you're unable to differentiate between (and grasp the implications of saying)"robotic humans" and "enlightened animals" |
No, they go a step further. There are people on this board who value animal life over a human life. There is a poster who would save a dog and leave a baby to die. Red dog, yes, Im talking about you. I have no illusions. Animals are creatures incapable of higher mental processes, and while they may feel what we feel when we experience base emotions like anger, rage, fear, etc, they are unable to comprehend them, and that is why they do not mourn their dead. To mour we must feel sadness, comprehend it on a higher level and then we can mourn. |
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arjuna
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:17 pm Post subject: |
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| khyber wrote: |
| often people are duped by "animals are the same as humans". At the very least, it's clear that you're unable to differentiate between (and grasp the implications of saying) "robotic humans" and "enlightened animals" |
I made a reference to robotic humans. I'll stand by my statement that most humans are robotic.
I don't use the term "enlightened" other than to make fun of the confusion associated with it.
I have never said, or thought that "animals are the same as humans."
Animals have their ways. In some fundamental ways, their functioning is similar to human functioning. In basic emotional behavior, animals are straightforward and honest. Human emotional behavior is anything but straight forward and honest. Additionally, human beings do not recognize their confusion. |
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jinju
Joined: 22 Jan 2006
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| I think its YOU who doesnt recognize his/her confusion. Animals are animals. Dont make them out to be more than just animals. |
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khyber
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Compunction Junction
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:37 pm Post subject: |
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I made a reference to robotic humans. I'll stand by my statement that most humans are robotic.
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And therein is my point. You haven't completely considered what is MEANT by that statement.
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| In basic emotional behavior, animals are straightforward and honest. Human emotional behavior is anything but straight forward and honest. Additionally, human beings do not recognize their confusion. |
1) It's impossible to prove your first sentence and 2) you can't say animals are "straightforward and honest" since these are anthropocentric concepts and instinct (the only TRUE animal "emotion") is not the same as honesty.
Allow me to use an example:
I took my dog to a groomers. Her toenail got caught in the grate. Instead of thinking out the process (a higher level action), she struggled to release her foot with no success and hurt herself. She was aware of her confusion but at no point did she think that her efforts to resolve her problem would harm her.
Don't confuse instinct (pack mentality, loyalty, hunting instincts, signs of affection) with "emotional behaviour". These are actions that are innate to species. These are not thought processes, NOR ARE THEY DECISIONS BASED ON EMOTION. They are merely reactions to certain stimulae.
And that sounds pretty robotic to me.
Straightforwardness and honesty have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with "being a robot": Unless you could explain the relationship. |
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kermo
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Location: Eating eggs, with a comb, out of a shoe.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| arjuna wrote: |
I made a reference to robotic humans. I'll stand by my statement that most humans are robotic. |
I read an article recently (can't find a link, as it wasn't online. Popular Science maybe?) that questioned the notion of free will after finding that an amazingly high percentage of human behaviour is predictable.
| Quote: |
| Most of the time, human "emotions" appear to be automatic programmed reactions to events. When something happens, one is supposed to feel this or that--that is the conditioning, the overwhelming thought pattern of humanity. So, one "feels" "grief" in response to this kind of event, "joy" in response to another, and so on. Even at this artificial level, are human beings really aware of their so-called emotions? As I observe them, the answer is almost always no. |
Maybe you misunderstood what I wrote. The "awareness" I was referring to extended only to labelling the emotion, not questioning their validity or source. |
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Desiree
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:11 am Post subject: |
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Anyone who doubts the cognitive ability of animals has never been around them long enough to know. It's really that simple. If you've cared for an animal, then you understand. If you've never cared for an animal, then you think of them as having the intelligence of an insect (which is also a flawed way of thinking). They are just another source of food for most.
Different animals exibit different levels of intelligence, just as humans do. If you're retarded, Jinju, then you can only respond at a certain level. If you're a genius, then you respond at another. For example, anyone who has worked with chimpanzees or gorillas, as I have, will know that their ability to respond to stimulus is remarkably human-like. They can learn to communicate through hand signs and other responses. To make another comparison, if you're a fish, then your ability is greatly diminished. If you're an elephant, then you're somewhere in between. If you're a human, then you write books and make machines and words. There is no point however where you stop being alive, or feeling and responding. |
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arjuna
Joined: 31 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| kermo wrote: |
| arjuna wrote: |
I made a reference to robotic humans. I'll stand by my statement that most humans are robotic. |
I read an article recently (can't find a link, as it wasn't online. Popular Science maybe?) that questioned the notion of free will after finding that an amazingly high percentage of human behaviour is predictable. |
I wrote a long response, but I don't feel like posting it. 
In short: The robotic nature I was referring to is in the mental programming, which is not "biological" or "instinctual." Free will is masked by the programming to greater or lesser degree in different individuals. But free will also operates within human functioning (which we can't see clearly because we are blinded by programming) over which we have no control--not yet, anyway. |
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patongpanda
Joined: 06 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:53 pm Post subject: |
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Elephants can communicate over very long differences using seismic signals so I would put them somewhere along with dolphins and whales as to cognitive ability (maybe higher that chimpanzees).
They also transmit information down through generations (the location of watering holes etc).
Elephants are totally awesome. |
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Privateer
Joined: 31 Aug 2005
Location: Easy Street.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:03 am Post subject: |
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Anyone who's had a dog knows animals have emotions. It's wilfully obtuse to deny it.
If you want some sort of scientific study to prove the matter refer to Jane Goodall. |
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Julius
Joined: 27 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:42 am Post subject: |
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I think its obvious to anyone who has interracted with animals to any significant degree, that they have emotions. Fear, anger, loyalty, jealousy, betrayal, pride etc etc etc.
I don't know why people are even debating it. Is it because by stripping animals of "emotions" it becomes easier to abuse them as having no value?
I'm wary of people who dislike animals. I think people who dislike animals, tend to dislike people too. Something is not quite right there. So a panda sometimes deserts one of her cubs? Well animals have had evolve strategies for survival because they live in much harsher environments etc that the veneer of civilisation we apply to people.
Any act of so-called cruelty you may witness in the animal world has many parralels and far more extreme examples in the human realm. Fact is, people are the most destructive and dangerous species on this planet. |
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