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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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 Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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I believe the political compass is deeply flawed.
Here, you'll notice that Ron Paul does not even qualify as a libertarian. And John Edwards is on the right? What is this poll smoking? |
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mindmetoo
Joined: 02 Feb 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| The dollar will crash when enough ordinary everyday people realize it's worthless and refuse to accept it. |
But when the vast majority of people realize they can exchange it for goods and services? I don't give a wit about how much gold I can get for my dollar. I care about how much bread I can get. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
I believe the political compass is deeply flawed.
Here, you'll notice that Ron Paul does not even qualify as a libertarian. And John Edwards is on the right? What is this poll smoking? |
The word 'libertarian' can mean so many different things. Generally, it suggests that the primary concern ought to be maximizing individual freedom. But how to get there is quite different. Chomsky is a libertarian and who am I to say he isn't? I can see the merits in anarcho-syndicalist ideas and can easily see how they might be libertarian.
Are we really more free if we are simply free to die (NOFX: not freedom like America but freedom like a shopping cart or Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose)? Is that freedom? I think it is, but many disagree. Am I more free if I get cancer and can't pay for it and the state doesn't step in so I die or am I more free if the state taxes the more financially able to help the less able? These are serious questions. I am not exactly firm in my convictions when it comes to these issues.
I am more of a social libertarian and economic classical liberal. I don't get very inspired by long-winded discussions about the evils of socialized medicine or the Canadian Pension Plan. And I like the CBC (though it should stick to only news and HNIC). But I am staunchly a social libertarian. Do what you want as long as you don't harm another. If you dig crack, smoke away. If you want to marry 10 obese circus clowns, have'at'er.
Ron Paul probably isn't a libertarian. His primary concern is that the law of the land is upheld. I agree with him on some issues and disagree on others. But he will end these damned wars and not start any new ones, and as an outsider looking at America, that is exactly what the Good Doctor ordered. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
I believe the political compass is deeply flawed.
Here, you'll notice that Ron Paul does not even qualify as a libertarian. And John Edwards is on the right? What is this poll smoking? |
The word 'libertarian' can mean so many different things. Generally, it suggests that the primary concern ought to be maximizing individual freedom. But how to get there is quite different. Chomsky is a libertarian and who am I to say he isn't? I can see the merits in anarcho-syndicalist ideas and can easily see how they might be libertarian.
Are we really more free if we are simply free to die (NOFX: not freedom like America but freedom like a shopping cart or Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose)? Is that freedom? I think it is, but many disagree. Am I more free if I get cancer and can't pay for it and the state doesn't step in so I die or am I more free if the state taxes the more financially able to help the less able? These are serious questions. I am not exactly firm in my convictions when it comes to these issues.
I am more of a social libertarian and economic classical liberal. I don't get very inspired by long-winded discussions about the evils of socialized medicine or the Canadian Pension Plan. And I like the CBC (though it should stick to only news and HNIC). But I am staunchly a social libertarian. Do what you want as long as you don't harm another. If you dig crack, smoke away. If you want to marry 10 obese circus clowns, have'at'er.
Ron Paul probably isn't a libertarian. His primary concern is that the law of the land is upheld. I agree with him on some issues and disagree on others. But he will end these damned wars and not start any new ones, and as an outsider looking at America, that is exactly what the Good Doctor ordered. |
That's all very well and good. But dude, I scored a -4.46 on the libertarian scale, and Dr. Paul can't even manage a -0.25. You don't think this poll is flawed? |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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I've never taken that test. I got two questions in and closed the window. Most answers depend on a context not provided.
For example, question number 1:
If economic globalisation is inevitable, it should primarily serve humanity rather than the interests of trans-national corporations.
Well, no. Which corporations and when/where? How did they become transnational? Are they arms firms or agribusiness? I just can't answer. Then the silly question about race. Other than Koreans, who would answer that to the affirmative?
Anyways, Paul is a constitutionalist, and the American constitution is a fairly libertarian document. To the extent that the constitution would do well on that quiz is the extent to which Paul would. He would be willing to have a criminalization of drugs, as long as the states did the law-making. He would be willing to have all sorts of consumer regulation and corporate welfare, provided the states did it. these are not libertarian positions.
But he is staunchly anti-war. And that is libertarian. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:58 am Post subject: |
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If you want to accurately determine where you are on the political map use this test. I already mentioned it on page one.
On this test, Ron Paul is correctly ranked as a libertarian.
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz.html
The other link in this thread is indeed deeply flawed. The questions are misleading and involve more than one issue in the same question. This alone invalidates the results. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| mindmetoo wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| The dollar will crash when enough ordinary everyday people realize it's worthless and refuse to accept it. |
But when the vast majority of people realize they can exchange it for goods and services? I don't give a wit about how much gold I can get for my dollar. I care about how much bread I can get. |
You have missed the point, again.
When enough people (and it doesn't matter if it never includes you) realize that the dollar has lost 97% of its value and that it is continuing to fall day by day and that it is actually worthless, they will begin to look for alternatives. They will begin a "run"away from the dollar. It actually takes a very small percentage of the public to cause the dollar and all the other fiat currencies to fall to zero.
It doesn't matter what the people run to: they can use gold, silver or cigarettes; they can barter; they can create new commodity backed currencies; they can even accept dollars and dump them quickly the same day or the same hour like day traders trying to bet ahead and beat each day's fall; but, as long as they generally refuse to either accept or at least hold dollars overnight, they will engender its final fall to zero.
Neither the federal reserve, nor the government, nor ingnorant bystanders, nor fully indoctrinated supporters of the socialist state can stop the fall - it is as inevitable as the movements of the earth, moon, planets, sun and stars. It is based on the same laws of nature that those movements are based on. The laws of nature and the laws of economics are all linked and cannot be changed by man.
Its just like a bankrupt business. People hear that their $100 per share (or whatever) company isn't doing so well. Actually, they've been cooking the books a little. Actually, they owe more than the value of their assets. So, this going concern now appears to be bankrupt. But, if people remain convinced that there is some value there, if some important leader sells them a bill of goods, the share price may fall slowly. This would conveniently give some big wig insiders time to bail out. Then when a significant number of stockholders realize the value is really zero, and try to dump their shares, and they find that there are few or no willing buyers at any price, the price will crash, eventually to zero.
This is just what will happen to the dollar and other fiat currencies. It is, in fact, happening now. It's just that the size of this crash is much bigger, the time it takes is longer, and it will be such a major disaster for the world that the consequences could be cataclysmic. The world could break into warring camps - a new middle age of feudal states or a new dark age could be the result. Perhaps the world will look somewhat like Kevin Costner's "Postman."
Only by radically cutting the size and scope of the US government and by issuing a new currency backed by gold can we avert the calamity that is looming ahead. We cannot save the dollar. We cannot save the socialist programs or the neocon dreams. We can, maybe, save ourselves and our liberty, it we act now. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Current US Federal Debt (as of 2005) over $46 trillion.
That's $46,000,000,000,000.
If you're an American worker, your share is $375,000. That's what you owe today.
Of course, these were the 2005 numbers. Today the total US debt is over $60 trillion.
This guy is quite "conservative" in his estimates. That means other estimates of the net present value of the total Federal debt would be higher based on sound actuarial principles.
He is forcasting doom. Oh yeah, he's the US Comptroller General.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjZBOCAgR64 |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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dogshed
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:06 am Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
| The dollar will crash when enough ordinary everyday people realize it's worthless and refuse to accept it. |
But when the vast majority of people realize they can exchange it for goods and services? I don't give a wit about how much gold I can get for my dollar. I care about how much bread I can get. |
You have missed the point, again.
When enough people (and it doesn't matter if it never includes you) realize that the dollar has lost 97% of its value and that it is continuing to fall day by day and that it is actually worthless, they will begin to look for alternatives. They will begin a "run"away from the dollar. It actually takes a very small percentage of the public to cause the dollar and all the other fiat currencies to fall to zero.
It doesn't matter what the people run to: they can use gold, silver or cigarettes; they can barter; they can create new commodity backed currencies; they can even accept dollars and dump them quickly the same day or the same hour like day traders trying to bet ahead and beat each day's fall; but, as long as they generally refuse to either accept or at least hold dollars overnight, they will engender its final fall to zero.
Neither the federal reserve, nor the government, nor ingnorant bystanders, nor fully indoctrinated supporters of the socialist state can stop the fall - it is as inevitable as the movements of the earth, moon, planets, sun and stars. It is based on the same laws of nature that those movements are based on. The laws of nature and the laws of economics are all linked and cannot be changed by man.
Its just like a bankrupt business. People hear that their $100 per share (or whatever) company isn't doing so well. Actually, they've been cooking the books a little. Actually, they owe more than the value of their assets. So, this going concern now appears to be bankrupt. But, if people remain convinced that there is some value there, if some important leader sells them a bill of goods, the share price may fall slowly. This would conveniently give some big wig insiders time to bail out. Then when a significant number of stockholders realize the value is really zero, and try to dump their shares, and they find that there are few or no willing buyers at any price, the price will crash, eventually to zero.
This is just what will happen to the dollar and other fiat currencies. It is, in fact, happening now. It's just that the size of this crash is much bigger, the time it takes is longer, and it will be such a major disaster for the world that the consequences could be cataclysmic. The world could break into warring camps - a new middle age of feudal states or a new dark age could be the result. Perhaps the world will look somewhat like Kevin Costner's "Postman."
Only by radically cutting the size and scope of the US government and by issuing a new currency backed by gold can we avert the calamity that is looming ahead. We cannot save the dollar. We cannot save the socialist programs or the neocon dreams. We can, maybe, save ourselves and our liberty, it we act now. |
If my 2008 dollar is worth 10 2007 cents then how does trading those 10 2007 cents into a 2008 gold dollar help me? The 2008 gold dollar will still
be worth 10 2007 cents. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
Current US Federal Debt (as of 2005) over $46 trillion.
That's $46,000,000,000,000.
If you're an American worker, your share is $375,000. That's what you owe today.
Of course, these were the 2005 numbers. Today the total US debt is over $60 trillion. |
Yeah, with those numbers I'd be forecasting doom as well. But those are not the actual numbers.
Here is the debt clock: $9trillion.
The estimated population of the United States is 303,803,471
so each citizen's share of this debt is $30,196.69. |
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caniff
Joined: 03 Feb 2004
Location: All over the map
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
I believe the political compass is deeply flawed.
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Yeah, I landed right on Gandhi. Pretty sure something's off there (no offense to Gandhi - I'm sure he'd agree). |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
Current US Federal Debt (as of 2005) over $46 trillion.
That's $46,000,000,000,000.
If you're an American worker, your share is $375,000. That's what you owe today.
Of course, these were the 2005 numbers. Today the total US debt is over $60 trillion. |
Yeah, with those numbers I'd be forecasting doom as well. But those are not the actual numbers.
Here is the debt clock: $9trillion.
The estimated population of the United States is 303,803,471
so each citizen's share of this debt is $30,196.69. |
You didn't watch the video. The $46 trillion and now $60 trillion ARE the real debt numbers; the debt as determined by actual accountants, actual government accounts, THE actual US Comptroller, that is the US government's head accountant.
The $9 trillion is a lie fed to you by politicians. It is the same kind of lie used by Enron. They are hiding the real debt. The $46 trillion owed in 2005 is the REAL debt as of that year. It represents the present value of future obligations. It was actually calculated to be as SMALL as possible.
What the politicians do with their $9 trillion is to not include future payments. It would be like you pretend that you don't owe the bank $100,000 that you borrowed to buy a house, but only include the $7,000 or whatever that you have to pay in one year as your debt. That would be a lie. So it is with the $9 trillion. If a business did its accounting the way congress does to come up with the $9 trillion number, the executives would go to jail. Come to think of it, most of the politicians involved in this swindle SHOULD go to jail too ... for fraud. It's the same lie as in Enron. Please wake up. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ontheway wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| ontheway wrote: |
Current US Federal Debt (as of 2005) over $46 trillion.
That's $46,000,000,000,000.
If you're an American worker, your share is $375,000. That's what you owe today.
Of course, these were the 2005 numbers. Today the total US debt is over $60 trillion. |
Yeah, with those numbers I'd be forecasting doom as well. But those are not the actual numbers.
Here is the debt clock: $9trillion.
The estimated population of the United States is 303,803,471
so each citizen's share of this debt is $30,196.69. |
You didn't watch the video. The $46 trillion and now $60 trillion ARE the real debt. The debt as determined by actual accountants, actual government accounts, THE actual US Comptroller, that is the US government's head accountant.
The $9 trillion is a lie fed to you by politicians. It is the same kind of lie used by Enron. They are hiding the real debt. The $46 trillion owed in 2005 is the REAL debt as of that year. It represents the present value of future obligations. It was actually calculated to be as SMALL as possible.
What the politicians do with their $9 trillion in not include future payments. It would be like you pretend that you don't owe the bank $100,000 that you borrowed to buy a house, but only include the $7,000 or so that you have to pay in one year as your debt. That would be a lie. So it is with the $9 trillion. If a business did its accounting the way congress does to come up with the $9 trillion number, the executives would go to jail. Come to think of it, most of the politicians involved in this swindle SHOULD go to jail to ... for fraud. It's the same lie as in Enron. Please wake up. |
I should wake up?
Dude, I'm the only one who has provided actual links. The comptroller lists 'Total Fiscal Exposures' versus 'Estimated Revenue' for 2045. Isn't that looking a bit far ahead for both? There's a reason projected birthrates/oil returns/revenue aren't too credible after 10/15 years. These things change.
Look, the situation is bad enough without the Comptroller charging windmills wielding feeble estimates of future revenue. I appreciate his concern and fiscal conservatism, I do. But his trend lines assume that trends remain static in terms of growth.
Alarmism is not necessary: we need to encounter the facts as they are now, not partisan projections. $9 trillion is bad enough. |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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If you studied accounting and actuarial science you would understand.
The $46 trillion is the real number. If the US govt. was a business, that would be the debt number they would have to disclose on their financial statements as the present corporate debt on their fiscal 2005 consolidated financial statements. To fail to do so would be fraud.
Those numbers are NOT future amounts. The are the net present values of the future obligations. They are the present values of the debt: that is, those are the amounts they would have to pay TODAY (2005) to extinguish the debt.
It is the same as you hiding your mortgage as a debt because you don't have to pay it this year.
Go get an accounting major. Go study actuarial science. Yes, then maybe you'll understand what he and I are saying. And, yes, then maybe you'll wake up. |
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