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igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003 Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 8:24 pm Post subject: |
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Kepler
Joined: 24 Sep 2007
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Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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| On the other hand wrote: |
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| A lot of voters seem to be overlooking the mormon thing. |
From what I can tell, most of the anti-Mormon stuff in this campaign is coming from the Religious-Right types in the GOP, specifically those associated with the Huckabee campaign. Yet the article makes it sound as if the whole society is violently anti-Mormon. |
I agree. Romney was able to get elected governor in a progressive state like Massachusetts. Apparently, liberals are less concerned his religious background. It is the Religious Right that is concerned about his Mormon background and they make up a significant percentage of voting Republicans in many states.
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In the late 1960s, the percentage of Americans who said they would not vote for a Jewish or Catholic presidential candidate was in the double digits; by 1999, those numbers had fallen to 6 and 4 percent, respectively (roughly the same as the percentage of voters who say they wouldn't vote for a Baptist). Compare that to the 17 percent of Americans who currently say they would have qualms electing a Mormon to the White House. That number hasn't changed one whit since 1967, the year that Romney's father considered a presidential run (he abandoned the effort after making a gaffe about how the military "brainwashed" him into supporting the Vietnam War).
Some of this anti-Mormonism is a fairly fuzzy sort of bias, based mostly on rumors and unfamiliarity and the vague feeling that Mormons are kind of weird. It's a wobbly opposition that can be overcome by good public relations that defuses concerns about the religion and shifts focus to the personality of the candidate. This is how someone like Romney gets elected in a blue state like Massachusetts, where even Republicans are generally tolerant.
But moderate Republicans aren't the ones who could derail a Romney candidacy. His obstacle is the evangelical base--a voting bloc that now makes up 30 percent of the Republican electorate and that wields particular influence in primary states like South Carolina and Virginia. Just as it is hard to overestimate the importance of evangelicalism in the modern Republican Party, it is nearly impossible to overemphasize the problem evangelicals have with Mormonism. Evangelicals don't have the same vague anti-LDS prejudice that some Americans do. For them it's a doctrinal thing, based on very specific theological disputes that can't be overcome by personality or charm or even shared positions on social issues. Romney's journalistic boosters either don't understand these doctrinal issues or try to sidestep them. But ignoring them won't make them go away. To evangelicals, Mormonism isn't just another religion. It's a cult.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0509.sullivan1.html |
Last edited by Kepler on Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 9:27 pm Post subject: |
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| CentralCali wrote: |
| And, FYI, I know quite a lot about my own church. |
ROFL. I suspected as much. Now we see the Mormon courtesy, reasonableness, and maturity in full force. No better -- indeed probably worse -- than most other organized religions in his arrogance.
Here is a news flash, CentralCali: if any group proclaims that another group, blacks, for instance, is different and separate from them, and not entitled to participate in their worldly activities, and not admissible into the highest levels of Heaven or what-have-you, then they have in effect, whether they are honest with themselves or not, dehumanized this Other.
And Mormons systematically dehumanized blacks via church doctrine until very recently. That is a fact, Jack. It may be difficult for you to swallow. But welcome to life outside the temple. |
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agentX
Joined: 12 Oct 2007 Location: Jeolla province
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Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 11:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Milwaukiedave wrote: |
| I would vote against Romney not only because he is Mormon, but also because of his attitudes and beliefs. That being said, I'd rather see him win the nomination because he is a weak candidate. |
you are not the only one who feels this way.
A daily blogger on the DailyKos came up with something similar.
http://alternet.org/blogs/peek/73526/#more
Long story short, here's the plan
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With a history of meddling in our primaries, why don't we try and return the favor. Next Tuesday, January 15th, Michigan will hold its primary. Michigan Democrats should vote for Mitt Romney, because if Mitt wins, Democrats win. How so?
For Michigan Democrats, the Democratic primary is meaningless since the DNC stripped the state of all its delegates (at least temporarily) for violating party rules. Hillary Clinton is alone on the ballot.
But on the GOP side, this primary will be fiercely contested. John McCain is currently enjoying the afterglow of media love since his New Hamsphire victory, while Iowa winner Mike Huckabee is poised to do well in South Carolina.
Meanwhile, poor Mitt Romney, who's suffered back-to-back losses in the last week, desperately needs to win Michigan in order to keep his campaign afloat. Bottom line, if Romney loses Michigan, he's out. If he wins, he stays in.
And we want Romney in, because the more Republican candidates we have fighting it out, trashing each other with negative ads and spending tons of money, the better it is for us. We want Mitt to stay in the race, and to do that, we need him to win in Michigan. |
In other words, with 3 front runners the GOP candidates would have to fight it out for votes thru Super Tuesday, and those big states are not cheap.
Whoever's left in the field would go into the nomination close to broke.
Ronmey's pro-business record and flip-flopping stances PLUS being a state with gay marriage on the books will be what hurts him, not being a Mormon. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 12:13 am Post subject: |
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| Mormons systematically dehumanized blacks via church doctrine until very recently. |
Isn't the important point here that Mormons did change, along with the rest of American society?
I don't remember much being made of George Romney's religion when he was running for president. I don't think much would be made of Mitt Romney's religion, but the times are different now--the Republican attack machine will latch onto any perceived soft spot. Romney doesn't offer a lot of easy targets--he was a successful governor and has no known scandals in his closet. They attack his flip flops for the people in the room that will respond to that kind of attack. They attack his religion for the people in the room that will respond to that.
The disappointing thing is that none of the candidates have spoken up in defense of either Romney or Huckabee on the matter of religion. Again, I object to any religious test for any public office. (One exception: I doubt it would be a good idea to hire an aggressive athiest to offer prayers at the beginning of Congressional sessions.) |
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Czarjorge

Joined: 01 May 2007 Location: I now have the same moustache, and it is glorious.
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:12 am Post subject: |
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What about the Mormon practice of posthumously baptizing everyone from Hitler to Holocaust victims? That continues regardless of protests.
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/West/12/10/baptizing.the.dead.ap/
Romney SHOULD be harangued about his religion. Is it not appropriate to take Huckabee to task for disbelieving evolution? There does need to be a public litmus test for a candidate's religion, that being the fact that they aren't TOO religious.
It's a political tradition in this country. When Kennedy ran his Papist upbringing was an issue.
Look at what Bush's evangelical madness has gotten us, all because he is certain the God put him in his position so whatever he does is right. I fear and admonish any candidate who would, knowingly or not, invoke the mandate of heaven for their rule. |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Isn't the important point here that Mormons did change, along with the rest of American society? |
No. The point is that neither Mormons in general nor Romney and his supporters stand on very solid ground when they complain that they are being discriminated against by non-Mormons.
And the point has nothing to do with this Republican attack machine -- as if the Democrats did not have one, too -- you keep bringing up, either. |
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igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003 Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:46 am Post subject: |
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| Answer the question Gopher. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003 Location: Established in 1994
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 4:02 am Post subject: |
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| When one group of Republicans attacks another group of Republicans--which is the case here--then I think it's fair to refer to the Republican attack machine. From what little I've seen, it's the Huckabee evangelicals attacking Romney. |
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Gopher

Joined: 04 Jun 2005
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: |
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I see it as mere "politics." Republicans do it; Democrats do it; other parties do it. Politicians at the national, state, and local levels do it. Politicians outside of American politics -- that is, nearly everyone else in the world, as far as I can see, do it. They have done it for as long as humans have practiced the art of politics.
Indeed, people seem to do this in their everyday lives at their places of employment via office gossip -- including, in my experience, within the military, within casinos, and especially within Academe. It is ubiquitous. Whereever you find humans grouped more than two, whereever interest groups and factions of any size arise, you will find this behavior.
"The Republican attack machine" unfairly isolates, then. Pots calling kettles "black," if you will.
Check this out...
Last edited by Gopher on Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:30 am; edited 3 times in total |
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mithridates

Joined: 03 Mar 2003 Location: President's office, Korean Space Agency
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| agentX wrote: |
| Milwaukiedave wrote: |
| I would vote against Romney not only because he is Mormon, but also because of his attitudes and beliefs. That being said, I'd rather see him win the nomination because he is a weak candidate. |
you are not the only one who feels this way.
A daily blogger on the DailyKos came up with something similar.
http://alternet.org/blogs/peek/73526/#more
Long story short, here's the plan
| Quote: |
With a history of meddling in our primaries, why don't we try and return the favor. Next Tuesday, January 15th, Michigan will hold its primary. Michigan Democrats should vote for Mitt Romney, because if Mitt wins, Democrats win. How so?
For Michigan Democrats, the Democratic primary is meaningless since the DNC stripped the state of all its delegates (at least temporarily) for violating party rules. Hillary Clinton is alone on the ballot.
But on the GOP side, this primary will be fiercely contested. John McCain is currently enjoying the afterglow of media love since his New Hamsphire victory, while Iowa winner Mike Huckabee is poised to do well in South Carolina.
Meanwhile, poor Mitt Romney, who's suffered back-to-back losses in the last week, desperately needs to win Michigan in order to keep his campaign afloat. Bottom line, if Romney loses Michigan, he's out. If he wins, he stays in.
And we want Romney in, because the more Republican candidates we have fighting it out, trashing each other with negative ads and spending tons of money, the better it is for us. We want Mitt to stay in the race, and to do that, we need him to win in Michigan. |
In other words, with 3 front runners the GOP candidates would have to fight it out for votes thru Super Tuesday, and those big states are not cheap.
Whoever's left in the field would go into the nomination close to broke.
Ronmey's pro-business record and flip-flopping stances PLUS being a state with gay marriage on the books will be what hurts him, not being a Mormon. |
I saw that too, and it's a silly idea. No, Romney certainly wouldn't be out if he lost Michigan because he's already won a state and at present has the most delegates, which is what decides the candidate, not polling. Just because Wyoming was sandwiched between IA and NH and didn't make the news doesn't mean it didn't happen. So there were no 'back-to-back losses' for Romney: there was a loss, then a victory, and then a loss.
Current delegates:
Romney 30
Huckabee 21
McCain 10
Thompson 6
Paul 2
Hunter 1
Add to that the fact that he's rich and Democrats are playing with fire if they vote for him in this primary.
Also look at the total number of votes so far:
1. Romney 103,755 30%
2. McCain 102,361 29%
3. Huckabee 66,876 19%
4. Paul 29,648 9%
5. Giuliani 24,151 7%
6. Thompson 18,712 5% |
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Tiger Beer

Joined: 07 Feb 2003
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Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| mithridates wrote: |
Current delegates:
Romney 30
Huckabee 21
McCain 10
Thompson 6
Paul 2
Hunter 1
Add to that the fact that he's rich and Democrats are playing with fire if they vote for him in this primary. |
Nice stats! So true about WY.
Totally true about playing with fire. Romney is scarey because of his intense negative campaign ads and intense amounts of money. The smear campaigns he's throwing on to the other Republicans is hitting all new levels unseen before.
If he blasts through the Republicans and gets the nomination, I fear the Democrat who will have to go through those negative attack ads around election time. |
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daskalos
Joined: 19 May 2006 Location: The Road to Ithaca
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:51 am Post subject: |
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What pisses me off most about Romney is the way he calls foul whenever anyone brings up the perfectly valid point that he's managed to shift his position on any given issue one could care to name.
He could decide instead to say something along the lines of, "I'm grown up enough to be able to change my mind about a serious issue after being presented with new information." Of course this route would leave him very little else to say on the campaign trail, given the number of issues on which he's changed his mind and the seeming convenience of the timing of those shifts. It would be pretty clear, should he try to justify his shifts, that the only "new information" he was presented with was that if he wanted to get elected president, he had to jettison the positions that got him elected governor of very liberal Massachussets.
So I was wrong. He couldn't decide instead to address his shifts when challenged on them. All he can do is pout and declare how mean people are being to him to bring up his record, which is more than a little bit hypocritical of him.
Regarding the OP, probably, but I'm fine with that. The Latter Days Saints are very often, oddly, some very nice people, but they still belong to a creepy cult. I'm with Hitchens on this point. It is perfectly legitimate for a voter to decide not to vote for someone on the basis of an aversion to the candidate's beliefs. As for me, I wouldn't vote for any Mormon, any Southern Baptist (much less a preacher), any Orthodox Jew, any Catholic who held strictly to Vatican dogma, or anyone with "born again" on his/her lips, among very many others, because I don't think those people have my or humanity's best interests in mind, even though they undoubtedly think they do.
And while I'm on the subject, of all the categories covered by discrimination law, the one least deserving of inclusion in the list is religion, since it's (arguably) the only category in the list over which a person exercises choice. A Satanist, for instance, has every right to choose his faith, but that right does not extend to demanding that no one draw any negative conclusions about him as a person on the basis of those beliefs. No, I don't think religion should be removed from the list, but it is worth noting that religious organizations are the only ones given partial exemption in the observance of anti-discrimination laws, an exemption granted on the basis of their freely chosen beliefs. (e.g., many states with such laws allow churches and small property owners the right not to hire or rent to homosexuals or other people living in sin.) |
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igotthisguitar

Joined: 08 Apr 2003 Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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Posted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:40 am Post subject: |
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NBC Battles To Keep Kucinich Out Of The Debate
Tue Jan 15, 12:51 AM ET
The Nation -- Some principles are worth fighting for: like the cherished right of television networks to decide who is and who is not a legitimate candidate for president.
NBC Universal Inc. is a major media conglomerate. And major media conglomerates have traditionally been able to police the parameters of presidential politics. Any affront to this order of affairs is a threat to the ability of corporations to define the American discourse.
That's what is at stake as NBC fights to limit the amount of information Nevada Democrats have available to them before they caucuses on Saturday to choose delegates to the Democratic National Convention. So the network has announced that its crack legal team will work through the night to overturn a judge's order that Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich be included in the last pre-caucus debate between the Democratic presidential contenders.
On the day after the New Hampshire primary, when New Mexico Governor Bill Richardson was still in the race, Kucinich, Richardson, New York Senator Hillary Clinton, Illinois Senator Barack Obama and former North Carolina Senator John Edwards were invited to participate in the debate scheduled to be televised on MSNBC from 9 to 11 p.m. Tuesday.
Debate organizers wanted Richardson in the forum and knew that they could not exclude Kucinich, who was running ahead of the New Mexican in several national polls. So they grudgingly contacted the Kucinich campaign, which participated last week in initial planning discussions for the debate.
But when Richardson dropped out of the race on Thursday, the network yanked the invitation to Kucinich, who has stirred up past forums -- and distinguished himself from Clinton, Obama and Edwards -- by calling for the rapid withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq, advocating for the impeachment of members of the Bush administration, and even discussing the damage done to the political process by media monopolies.
MORE ...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/45270507;_ylt=AiKAV3.N2LO2vXRfbdOrAOADW7oF |
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anabolina

Joined: 27 Jan 2008 Location: Bundang
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Posted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Hey now, Romney is awesome and I reckon he is discriminated against not so much by media or liberals who probably think all Christian religions are similarly evil, but by the Bible Thumpers who cannot conceive of electing a Mormon to be President. Bit of a bummer that  |
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