|
Korean Job Discussion Forums "The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
stillnotking

Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Location: Oregon, USA
|
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kuros wrote: |
| He addressed it obliquely by talking about morality, but I don't think the point of his work was to defend the existence of God, so much as offer a polemic response against the New Atheists (who are nothing but polemicists themselves). |
Dennett's no polemicist. I'll give you Harris, Dawkins, and Hitchens. Their books honestly are not worth reading; they're preaching to the choir and offering little other than their opinions. god is not Great was especially embarrassing, both for the error in the title (God, as in the God of Abraham -- whatever one thinks of that deity -- remains a proper noun) and for the transparent errors in logic within its pages. Hitchens is a craven, gin-soaked intellectual parasite, consumed by the knowledge that he'll never write anything of lasting value or significance. He's occasionally amusing, but that's all.
I strongly recommend Breaking the Spell, though. And any of Dennett's other works. The man is one of the intellectual titans of our time. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| stillnotking wrote: |
I strongly recommend Breaking the Spell, though. And any of Dennett's other works. The man is one of the intellectual titans of our time. |
Alright, I haven't read Dennett. Nor am I familiar with him. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
suneV
Joined: 10 Jan 2008 Location: At the Flop
|
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Kuros wrote: |
| mistermasan wrote: |
| intellectualism. god. where exactly do the two intersect? ever? |
Augustine, Mimonides, Aquinas, Anselm, Kierkegaard, Kepler, Newton, I could go on, but why bother in this case? |
Lordy, what an absurd premise.
Just because they were intellectuals and Christians, does not mean that chirstianity is equated with intellectualism.
Bloody hell people. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Justin Hale

Joined: 24 Nov 2007 Location: the Straight Talk Express
|
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Oakes wrote: |
| The inevitable, even clich�d, response on the part of theists to this litany of woes is to ask: what about Hitler and Stalin? |
I'm sorry, but I haven't the patience to read beyond this point. I invite anyone under the misconception that Hitler was an atheist to simply (a) read Mein Kampf, where Hitler stated his belief that he was acting in accordance with the will of the almighty creator in defending [him]self against the Jew, fighting for the work of the Lord, and (b) study Nazi Germany, where you will discover the following:
Hitler not merely being born and baptized a Catholic, but dying a Catholic and the Church never excommunicating him;
Hitler's Jewish antisemitism coming from his Christian background. Martin Luther said Jews' homes should be destroyed, their synagogues burned, money confiscated and liberty curtailed - sound familiar?
Hitler's belief that the Bible represented the history of mankind;
The Nazi party platform having a section on Positive Christianity (and Hitler never removing it);
Hitler's attempt to establish a united Reich Church;
Hitler allowing the destruction of Jewish synagogues and temples, but not Christian churches;
Hitler encouraging Nazis to worship in Christian churches;
Hitler speaking of his Christian beliefs in his speeches and proclamations.
Give me one good reason why I should continue reading Mr Oakes' writing given the above fundamental factual misconception.
Regarding Stalin, Stalin repressed religion as a means to an end - forced collectivization and rapid industrialization - not as an end in itself. Theists kill theists as an end in itself.
Finally, Hitler and Stalin both (almost certainly) believed that the Sun was at the center of the solar system. In fact, if you take a look at history, you will discover that heliocentrists have killed and maimed a great many people. I'm going with geocentrism, just to be safe.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Julius

Joined: 27 Jul 2006
|
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Justin Hale wrote: |
Hitler's belief that the Bible represented the history of mankind |
He knew, but he was on the other side. Yes, a believer, but not a christian exactly.
As the smart politician he was, he would have been foolish to throw out christianity in the eyes of the people. His best chance was to utilise its power for his own ends. George Bush has the cameras film him going to chapel on Sunday sometimes. Same deal. It does no harm to a politician. in the same way holding babies doesn't. Especially if you are in a christian country.
but his private writings reveal his actual opinions on the matter. So do the fruits of his time in power. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
|
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| greedy_bones wrote: |
I think Harris's points are good counter to Oakes's nonsense. First, you don't see Tibetan Buddhists suicide bombing the Chinese or similar behavior from Quakers, Jainists, or other inherently peaceful religions. |
Exactly. Religion isn't inherently a problem, but the content of some religions is a serious problem.
I think humans are a mix of nature/nurture. We do have something of a blank slate in some ways. We grow up and learn the 'shared perspective' of our culture. If that culture is peaceful, we will likely grow to be peaceful. And if not, then not. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Rteacher

Joined: 23 May 2005 Location: Western MA, USA
|
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:26 am Post subject: |
|
|
The bad content of religions is due to materialistic contamination and sectarian spirit.
Real religion (like everything else) emanates from the infinitely intelligent, and inconceivably powerful Absolute Person, who is all-pervasive and all-good.
The theistic conception of morality is based on conditioned individual souls following God's laws in order to permanently escape material suffering (caused by our ignorantly trying to enjoy and exploit nature.)
There has been a considerable amount of killing done in the name of God and religion, but not nearly as much as the huge death toll (upwards 100 million) exacted by secular atheistic regimes of the 20th Century...
The "evolutionary based moral framework" (where right is distinguished from wrong based on what is good for survival of the species) has proven to have disastrous cultural implications.
In a debate with Hitchens, Rabbi Boteach made the following argument regarding Hitler:
�According to Sir Arthur Keith, Britain�s leading evolutionary scientist of the mid-20th century, Hitler�s ideas of a master race were the direct product of evolutionary thinking. Keith wrote:
�To see evolutionary measures and tribal morality being applied vigorously to the affairs of a great modern nation, we must turn again to Germany of 1942. We see Hitler devoutly convinced that evolution produced the only real basis for a national policy� The means he adopted to secure the destiny of his race and people were organized slaughter� The German Fuhrer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution� war is the necessary outcome of Darwin�s theory.�
Such a materialistic, "evolutionary" basis for morality plays into the hands of pyschopaths like Hitler.
A devotee contrasts theistic morality with the godless variety as follows:
So the outlook of the devotee and the psychopath are distinct in that the devotee of God embraces a positive concept of eternal life and a deeply satisfying primordial relationship with a Perfect Person. The evolutionary atheist refuses such optimism in favor of a mechanistic existential summation of themselves and all other forms of life. In this way they can justify genocide, patricide, homicide, environmental exploitation and practically every other social ill we face today as merely consequences of our inherent will to survive.
Moreover, they are fully ignorant that even the observable will to survive that is instinctive to every species of life is a result of our far more deeply rooted identification as an undying spiritual entity. Otherwise, why even bother with the concept of survival? What�s it worth? Where did the basic notion of continuation of our life even come from? If we are just a lump of chemicals then why bother with the hassle of survival? Who put that instinct to survive there? How can composite helixes of DNA develop the desire to sustain themselves as a species? Where does this consciousness come from? Enough with the rhetorical questions - this is where the death-mongering atheistic so-called thinkers get stuck. They cannot answer this question without accepting that even the very perspective from which they posit their own dim theories exists beyond the scope of their sensory perception.
�A devotee feels the presence of God everywhere, yet a person averse to the Lord denies his existence anywhere.�
- Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura
http://www.dandavats.com/?p=3676 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
greedy_bones

Joined: 01 Jul 2007 Location: not quite sure anymore
|
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Rteacher wrote: |
The "evolutionary based moral framework" (where right is distinguished from wrong based on what is good for survival of the species) has proven to have disastrous cultural implications.
In a debate with Hitchens, Rabbi Boteach made the following argument regarding Hitler:
�According to Sir Arthur Keith, Britain�s leading evolutionary scientist of the mid-20th century, Hitler�s ideas of a master race were the direct product of evolutionary thinking. Keith wrote:
�To see evolutionary measures and tribal morality being applied vigorously to the affairs of a great modern nation, we must turn again to Germany of 1942. We see Hitler devoutly convinced that evolution produced the only real basis for a national policy� The means he adopted to secure the destiny of his race and people were organized slaughter� The German Fuhrer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution� war is the necessary outcome of Darwin�s theory.�
|
The idea of survival of the species is in fact the opposite of evolutionary theory. Most competition is within a species. People don't compete with chimps, they compete with people. Additionally, theres is no such thing as evolutionary morality. Evolution deals with why we have morals, but in no way dictates what's right or wrong. That's the field of philosophy. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
stillnotking

Joined: 18 Dec 2007 Location: Oregon, USA
|
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 5:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Rteacher wrote: |
| The "evolutionary based moral framework" (where right is distinguished from wrong based on what is good for survival of the species) has proven to have disastrous cultural implications. |
There is no such thing as an evolutionary (sic) based moral framework. No one, other than idiots, argues that because natural selection has produced something it is automatically "right".
Interestingly, though, our very concept of morality is a product of natural selection. That's a separate issue but you should look into it. I'd recommend starting with E. O. Wilson's excellent (though somewhat dated) Sociobiology.
| Rteacher wrote: |
In a debate with Hitchens, Rabbi Boteach made the following argument regarding Hitler:
�According to Sir Arthur Keith, Britain�s leading evolutionary scientist of the mid-20th century, Hitler�s ideas of a master race were the direct product of evolutionary thinking. Keith wrote:
�To see evolutionary measures and tribal morality being applied vigorously to the affairs of a great modern nation, we must turn again to Germany of 1942. We see Hitler devoutly convinced that evolution produced the only real basis for a national policy� The means he adopted to secure the destiny of his race and people were organized slaughter� The German Fuhrer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution� war is the necessary outcome of Darwin�s theory.�
Such a materialistic, "evolutionary" basis for morality plays into the hands of pyschopaths like Hitler. |
No. Psychopaths like Hitler are able to twist science into supporting their perverse doctrines, just as psychopaths like Torquemada are able to twist Christianity into supporting theirs. There is simply no possible way to argue that a belief in evolution or materialism makes people immoral. It doesn't. I have been a materialist my entire life and, while I am hardly perfect, I have never committed a serious crime and I have never been incarcerated. It may amaze you, but I, an atheist, have a conscience just like you do, and I do my best to behave compassionately to my fellow creatures. Oh, and Hitler was an a murderous b*stard who got exactly what he deserved -- at the hands of his fellow men, not God, who declined to involve Himself, as usual.
| Rteacher wrote: |
A devotee contrasts theistic morality with the godless variety as follows:
So the outlook of the devotee and the psychopath are distinct in that the devotee of God embraces a positive concept of eternal life and a deeply satisfying primordial relationship with a Perfect Person. The evolutionary atheist refuses such optimism in favor of a mechanistic existential summation of themselves and all other forms of life. In this way they can justify genocide, patricide, homicide, environmental exploitation and practically every other social ill we face today as merely consequences of our inherent will to survive. |
At the risk of continuing to belabor the obvious:
1. No one worth listening to says anything like this. It is a strawman argument. Please stop making it.
2. Atheists and agnostics are not less moral than religious believers. This is a demonstrable fact. Personal anecdotes aside, how do you address the fact that atheists and agnostics do not commit crimes at a greater rate than religious believers? Are we just smarter about not getting caught?
Hey, I have an idea. Let's see how many bullsh*t misrepresentations of atheists by theists we can pack into a single thread. For the next one, why don't you try telling us that we all really believe in God but just don't want to admit it? Or maybe you could trot out Pascal's Wager! I haven't seen that one in a while.
/sarcasm |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| suneV wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| mistermasan wrote: |
| intellectualism. god. where exactly do the two intersect? ever? |
Augustine, Mimonides, Aquinas, Anselm, Kierkegaard, Kepler, Newton, I could go on, but why bother in this case? |
Lordy, what an absurd premise.
Just because they were intellectuals and Christians, does not mean that chirstianity is equated with intellectualism.
Bloody hell people. |
Not all Christianity is intellectualism, but Christianity has a deep history of scholaticism and theological-philosophical background.
The question was: do intellectualism and god ever intersect?
Anyone who has a degree in the humanities should know the answer is yes. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Don Gately

Joined: 20 Mar 2006 Location: In a basement taking a severe beating
|
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: New Atheism: Swimming in shallow intellectual waters |
|
|
No, it's long. If you're going to accuse me of "swimming in shallow intellectual waters," try to use the right form of the word.
Thanks. Bye. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
OneWayTraffic
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
|
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Czarjorge wrote: |
Agnostics aren't sure if there's no god, athiests are.
Basically agnostic means "without knowledge" or the idea that you can never know God, existent or not, and that uncertainty is the big difference.
And how are these guys really... New? |
Not quite. While you're correct on the agnostic part, many atheists like to remember that a-theist means 'without belief' a weaker condition than actively disbelieving in a God or gods.
My daughter for example is an atheist. She's never had the word Jesus or God mentioned by either parent and so obviously lacks any kind of belief. At the age of three, however, she's unlikely to have thought about her own positions in any detail. Weak atheism would be the natural state of belief.
On the other hand I'm strongly atheistic with respect to any religious entities that exist: The stronger claims you make about God the more certain I am that you're wrong. (Since there is no evidence, after all.) This doesn't preclude the possibility in my mind that there is some kind of God, I just don't think it likely. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Justin Hale wrote: |
Theists kill theists as an end in itself.
|
Dogma. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Justin Hale

Joined: 24 Nov 2007 Location: the Straight Talk Express
|
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:51 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Theists kill other theists - and anyone else who happens to be the object of their hate - as an end it itself. I realize not all killing in the name of religion is like this, but much is.
Stalin killed a lot of people and was an atheist, but then again he was also a heliocentrist. He wore socks also. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
|
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Justin Hale wrote: |
Theists kill other theists - and anyone else who happens to be the object of their hate - as an end it itself. I realize not all killing in the name of religion is like this, but much is.
Stalin killed a lot of people and was an atheist, but then again he was also a heliocentrist. He wore socks also. |
I heard you the first time. I just didn't see any evidence. Hence: dogma.
My interpretation makes more sense. Hatred kills. Hatred extends to the religious and areligious. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|