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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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 Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| mindmetoo wrote: |
| Kuros wrote: |
| Libertarians need to find a candidate that isn't a reactionary bigot. |
Indeed. Libertarians are also pro immigration. Paul isn't. |
Ron Paul is also anti-NAFTA. It kind of undermines his claims to economic fluency in my eyes. |
NAFTA is hardly a free trade deal. It is a relationship between the corporations in the United States and Canada, and the two governments. It has been on balance likely good, but Paul's idea of simply trading at will would be much better.
And Paul isn't a reactionary bigot. Regarding immigration, he wants the territorial integrity of the country to be maintained and for rule of law to prevail. He wants to see the nation move towards more easy to obtain work permits for skilled and low-skilled migrants alike. I disagree with his opposition to amnesty but I disagree with him on many issues.
70% of the population is against the war in Iraq and both the frontrunners are pro-war. In Iraq, slave labour has been used to build the embassy, Blackwater shooting up civilians and kids willynilly and not facing prosectution. A debt that is out of control and likely to bankrupt the country. 12 million illegals who live in the shadows and have little chance of a normal life (nor the state of figuring out who are the MS13 thugs). Iraq falling apart. A looming and deep recession. And Ron Paul is still the boogy man.
A country is torturing, suspending/rolling back civil liberties and lost its sanity for war after war and the most staunch anti-war/torture and pro-civil liberties candidate is also the most ridiculed. This is just bizarre. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
A country is torturing, suspending/rolling back civil liberties and lost its sanity for war after war and the most staunch anti-war/torture and pro-civil liberties candidate is also the most ridiculed. This is just bizarre. |
He is not the only candidate advocating against torture. And his civil liberties stance is a farce.
Better candidates have left the race who had strong stances against the war. |
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Ya-ta Boy
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Location: Established in 1994
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| And Paul isn't a reactionary bigot. |
Actually, that is exactly what he is: 'tendency toward a former and usually outmoded political or social order or policy'.
You're demonstrating again that your understanding of American history is fairly shallow. Paul has said Lincoln was wrong about refusing to allow states to secede. Paul believes in a 'theory' that died in 1865.
The thing about Lincoln I've never understood was why he didn't want to treat at least the leaders of the Confederacy as traitors. That is how I consider RP. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Passed by a Clinton rally recently. Mostly Hillary Clinton supporters. Only one other candidate's supporters were milling around on the fringe, approx. half-a-dozen of them with their posters compared to nearly a thousand waiting to hear Clinton speak, trying to force themselves and their candidate into this gathering or appear on the newsfootage, but succeeding only in appearing like freaks. Which candidate and which supporters do you think I am referring to...? |
You think Ron Paul's a whacko because he has passionate, committed supporters? Just because you don't have the balls to go into the streets and protest for what you believe in, don't criticize them. We can see who is the fruitcake here. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Kuros wrote: |
| He is not the only candidate advocating against torture. And his civil liberties stance is a farce. |
How is his opposition to the PATRIOT Act, Military Commissions Act, FISA, National ID card, etc., a farce? |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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According to the Yahoo Election Dashboard, Ron Paul is polling 1st or 2nd in 22 states.
When the race is down to him and McCain, it'll be funny watching McCain debate himself on national TV. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And Paul isn't a reactionary bigot. |
Actually, that is exactly what he is
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This coming from the guy who compared a gay muslim women who protests Iranian killings of homosexuals to a slave master.
Anyways, if you want to understand Paul's view on Lincoln, read Thomas J. Dilorenzo's The Real Lincoln: A New Look at Abraham Lincoln, His Agenda, and an Unnecessary War. But I doubt you 1) read books and 2) in the event that you do read, read anything that might challenge your true believing status.
Maybe you can scan a few reviews, find one little "objectionable" factoid and then post it as evidence that the whole shabang is an evil fraud. That is how true believers function.
Anyways, it is a contrarian position, and we all know how the American mainstream treats contraian positions. The inch wide goalposts of acceptable CNN discourse will determine everything. I don't really care at all (and I'm certainly not going to start reading book after book about the American civil war) other than to marvel in the extent to which people like ya-ta will salute the official story of their tribe without any critical evaluation as long as it makes them feel like they belong.
Anyways, Paul believes that the civil war was more about tariffs than it was about slavery. I have no idea if this is true, nor do I at all care. But by the time the hacks get around to it all of a sudden Paul is pro-slavery and so on. I suppose that where you stand politically today will largely determine your opinion of that historical event. And that is a clear sign of a true believer. As I said, I don't care. Paul won't win, and a warrior will. The rest is just details. |
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Kuros
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
Anyways, it is a contrarian position, and we all know how the American mainstream treats contraian positions. The inch wide goalposts of acceptable CNN discourse will determine everything. |
Okay, then peel, if you want to go there: All the Canadians who like Ron Paul wouldn't like him so much if they understood the Constitution better. Because Ron Paul's interpretation of the Constitution is very particular and doesn't recognize the legitimacy of certain key amendments.
The fact is, every Canadian knows EXACTLY whats wrong with America, and if only the Americans weren't so goddamned stupid and stubborn but just accepted their wise neighbors' advice! |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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No, I don't think that. I have a great deal more respect for the United States (as a set of institutions and ideas) than I do for Canada. Much, much more. But I have noticed that Americans have a uniquely difficult time with ideas that fall outside of the provided goalposts of acceptable discourse.
Quite honestly, I think that perpetual war until bankruptcy is the future of the Republic. But the US can recover from a financial collapse and hopefully learn from these mistakes. 2 trillion in Iraq, a trillion+ in Afghanistan, and we're just getting started!
I don't care about Paul's ideas on the American constitution. I've been closely following him for around 7-8 years because of his staunch and stubborn opposition to war, the war on drugs and wild government expansion. It is nice to listen to somebody make the anti-war argument without wearing a Che shirt. |
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igotthisguitar
Joined: 08 Apr 2003
Location: South Korea (Permanent Vacation)
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| Posted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
According to the Yahoo Election Dashboard, Ron Paul is polling 1st or 2nd in 22 states.
When the race is down to him and McCain, it'll be funny watching McCain debate himself on national TV. |
Got any links? |
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ontheway
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Location: Somewhere under the rainbow...
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:34 am Post subject: |
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| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
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| Libertarians need to find a candidate that isn't a reactionary bigot. |
First Lyndon LaRouche, now Ron Paul.
As I used to tell my students before they wrote their first essay test in history class, if you can find one example of something, you have proven nothing except that one existed. If you can support your position with only two examples, then you have demonstrated what may be just a coincidence. If you find 3 supports, then you are definitely onto something.
It's just a coincidence that both LaRouche and Ron Paul are Libertarians and fruitcakes. Maybe just a coincidence. |
Don't be confused by the above. Lyndon LaRouche was NEVER a libertarian.
He was NEVER a libertarian candidate for any office, never a member of any libertarian group, never a member of any Libertarian Party organization at any level, never even a subscriber to any libertarian publication.
Likewise, Lyndon LaRouche was never a Republican of any kind.
Ideologically, Lyndon LaRouche was a socialist. He was ALWAYS a member of the Democratic Party. He ran repeatedly as a candidate for president in the Democrat primaries. His supporters managed to win some Democratic primaries for lower offices and take over some local Democratic committies and organizations. In each election cycle, after he failed to win the Democratic nomination for president, he continued on to run as an independent democrat, or as a socialist of one kind or another. At one time he founded a kind of socialist Labor party to campaign under, but he always fit with the Dems.
*******
Yata, you must be a moron. I wrote the above reply on another thread, and if you are so ignorant about election history to believe what you wrote about LaRouche, it proves that you know nothing at all. |
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thepeel
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| I've been knee deep in nutty libertarian friends, seminars and books for about 8 years and I've never heard of Larouche. |
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Milwaukiedave
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Location: Goseong
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:12 am Post subject: |
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| bacasper wrote: |
According to the Yahoo Election Dashboard, Ron Paul is polling 1st or 2nd in 22 states.
When the race is down to him and McCain, it'll be funny watching McCain debate himself on national TV. |
bacasper,
Maybe you should be a tad bit more honest about what you were talking about. You are talking about the Yahoo Buzz which is rated by users, NOT external polling. Essentially Yahoo Buzz is an online poll which can be manipulated like any other poll. |
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The_Conservative
Joined: 15 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| thepeel wrote: |
| Ya-ta Boy wrote: |
| Quote: |
| And Paul isn't a reactionary bigot. |
Actually, that is exactly what he is
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This coming from the guy who compared a gay muslim women who protests Iranian killings of homosexuals to a slave master.
Anyways, if you want to understand Paul's view on Lincoln, read Thomas J. Dilorenzo's The Real Lincoln: A New Look at Abraham Lincoln, His Agenda, and an Unnecessary War. But I doubt you 1) read books and 2) in the event that you do read, read anything that might challenge your true believing status.
Maybe you can scan a few reviews, find one little "objectionable" factoid and then post it as evidence that the whole shabang is an evil fraud. That is how true believers function.
Which is exactly how the Ron Paul supporters on these forums are acting. They find one or two little factoids they don't like and immediately it's a media/government conspiracy.
Anyways, it is a contrarian position, and we all know how the American mainstream treats contraian positions. The inch wide goalposts of acceptable CNN discourse will determine everything. I don't really care at all (and I'm certainly not going to start reading book after book about the American civil war) other than to marvel in the extent to which people like ya-ta will salute the official story of their tribe without any critical evaluation as long as it makes them feel like they belong.
Anyways, Paul believes that the civil war was more about tariffs than it was about slavery. I have no idea if this is true, nor do I at all care. But by the time the hacks get around to it all of a sudden Paul is pro-slavery and so on. I suppose that where you stand politically today will largely determine your opinion of that historical event. And that is a clear sign of a true believer.
Again there are as many "true believers" on the side of Ron Paul as on the side of any other canadiate. Not to mention racists, bigots, and an assortment of such loathsome freaks.
As I said, I don't care. Paul won't win, and a warrior will. The rest is just details. |
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bacasper
Joined: 26 Mar 2007
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| Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:43 am Post subject: |
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| Milwaukiedave wrote: |
| bacasper wrote: |
According to the Yahoo Election Dashboard, Ron Paul is polling 1st or 2nd in 22 states.
When the race is down to him and McCain, it'll be funny watching McCain debate himself on national TV. |
bacasper,
Maybe you should be a tad bit more honest about what you were talking about. You are talking about the Yahoo Buzz which is rated by users, NOT external polling. Essentially Yahoo Buzz is an online poll which can be manipulated like any other poll. |
I never even heard of the Yahoo Buzz. Is that what you got on right now?
Because the Yahoo Election Dashboard is a compilation of states that have held primaries or caucuses and poll averages from RealClearPolitics which calculates an average of many different polls.
Maybe you should apologize for your innuendo. |
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